Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[brightfame52]

Being of the Vessels of Wrath, them whom God purposely created to fit them for destruction, its the reasonable and necessary consequence of God having elected/chosen some people in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, to be Vessels of Mercy. God did predetermine before the foundation to create some people outside of the Electing Love in Christ; He had determined not to write their names in the Lambs Book of Life, hence to never be redeemed by His redeeming blood 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,4

 

[brightfame52]

They are appointed to disobey the Gospel !

The Gospel of Christ, His Person and Work for His Chosen People, and all that it entails and effects, what it accomplishes, was not in Gods Eternal Purpose for all to believe or obey, for God had appointed many to disobey it, not believe it 1 Pet 2:8

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

And what is the outcome of disobeying the Gospel of God ? Paul writes here 2 Thess 1:6-9

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

That's right, God had appointed them to this disobedience, to obey not the Gospel. Notice Vs 9 they shall be punished with everlasting destruction. The word destruction is derived from the very same word destruction in Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

It has to do with eternal death, ruin and misery ! God appointed the vessels of wrath unto this end ! 4

 

[brightfame52]

Cain was a child of the devil, a Vessel of wrath

The Two seed doctrine goes back to the beginning of world history Gen 3:15, and cain was a vessel of wrath, a child of the wicked one 1 Jn 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Remember John just had written that the children of the devil become manifested 1 Jn 3:10

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice in the greek text:

ἐν τούτῳ φανερά ἐστιν τὰ τέκνα τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὰ τέκνα τοῦ διαβόλου πᾶς ὁ μὴ ποιῶν δικαιοσύνην οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ ὁ μὴ ἀγαπῶν τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ

There's the definite article before children tekna both times, The Children of God and The children of the devil, two separate, distinct, and definite groups

The Children of God are redeemable, them Christ came to die for and gather Jn 11:51-52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;


52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

καὶ οὐχ ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἔθνους μόνον ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα καὶ τὰ τέκνα τοῦ θεοῦ τὰ διεσκορπισμένα συναγάγῃ εἰς ἕν

How are they gathered and manifested ? By Faith in Jesus Christ there kinsman redeemer Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

You see, if we are of the redeemed seed of Gods children, we receive the Spirit, which gives us the fruit of Faith Gal 5:22, so manifesting us as the children of God , Vessels of Mercy. However those of mankind that live and die in unbelief manifest themselves as the children of the devil, vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction ! 5

 

[TedT]

There's the definite article before children tekna both times, The Children of God and The children of the devil, two separate, distinct, and definite groups

This of course reminds me of Matt 13:36-39:
Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” An explanation of a metaphor must reduce the metaphor to pain facts without any further metaphor or hyperbole or innuendo hidden in it or it is not an explanation of the metaphor at all but is only an extension of it. To continue...

37 He replied, “The One who SOWS the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons / PEOPLE of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons / PEOPLE of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Sons cannot refer to words or doctrines or the metaphor is still operative.
To sow cannot mean to create because the devil sows people, sons, also but he cannot create. Therefore to sow must refer to its original meaning of to move an already created seed from a place of storage to a place of growth.

Since it is people, sons, that are being sown it is a very small and logical step to think these were people in spirit form being moved from one place to another, from a spirit place [Sheol] to a physical place [Earth]...unless a prior commitment to a different theology makes this suggestion to seem absurd by eisegesic, not exegesic, interpretation.

But since it does no damage to the meaning of the the words of the passage nor the meaning of the interpretation of the passage, this interpretation of our pe-earthly life is not absurd, only contrary to decided doctrine.

 

[brightfame52]

Gods purpose for making the reprobate/the vessels of wrath, is to show or demonstrate His Wrath against human sin. This is altogether humbling to the Vessels of Mercy, in that they realize that the Sovereign Potter had the right and power to have made them also Vessels of Wrath and to fit them for destruction, but He had chosen them in Christ to be Vessels of Mercy to And that he might make known the riches of his glory

Eph 1:18

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

See also Eph 3:16;Phil 4:19;Col 1:27

 

[civic]

God doest create any reprobates , man becomes one on his own.

Next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

God doest create any reprobates , man becomes one on his own.

Next fallacy

Thats false

 

[atpollard]

Next fallacy

“Fallacy”

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Gods purpose for making the reprobate/the vessels of wrath, is to show or demonstrate His Wrath against human sin.

Why would God need to show or demonstrate that? Who is God trying to convince or teach? The saved or the damned?
If you say that God is teaching the saved, then the foundation of the Gospel is hell. People are saved because they understand that eternal hell is real. The good news of the Gospel is not “the kingdom has come” but “you have escaped hell”.

I have no need of seeing my neighbors burning in hell for ever to appreciate God’s love. In fact, such sight would turn me against such a god.

Which takes me to the unavoidable question: Why do you worship a god that condemns your neighbors to eternal hell?
Why do you preach such god?

 

[atpollard]

Why do you worship a god that condemns your neighbors to eternal hell?
Why do you preach such god?

Why did Jesus preach a God that sends people to Hell (Matthew 25:31-46)?

Matthew 25 [NASB]​

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.​

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32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.​

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34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’​

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41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

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To warn people to avoid such a fate?

 

[brightfame52]

Why would God need to show or demonstrate that?

Thats something you need to get with God about.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Why did Jesus preach a God that sends people to Hell (Matthew 25:31-46)?

Matthew 25 [NASB]​

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.​

​

32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.​

​

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’​

​

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

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To warn people to avoid such a fate?

Warning about a fate does not make it moral, if the person who warns is able to change the fate and the fate is immoral.
For example, a drug cartel criminal could come to my business, ask for money, and warn me that if I don't pay the price, I will face as consequence the destruction of my business, my life and that of my family.
The fact that the drug cartel dealer is warning me doesn't make him more moral.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thats something you need to get with God about.

I actually already got with God about it. He let me know He won't keep people suffering forever because there's no reason for it. He can and will persuade them to repent.

 

[brightfame52]

I actually already got with God about it.

Okay then because thats His business

 

[TedT]

He can and will persuade them to repent.

How does this relate to the unforgivable sin?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

How does this relate to the unforgivable sin?

Hi TedT

To repent, the sinner must recognize what is good and bad… and this is accomplished by the work of the Holy Spirit.
As long as the soul is rejecting the Holy Spirit (calling bad what is obviously good) the sinner cannot be persuaded to be saved.

Let’s remember the context in which Jesus mentioned the unforgivable sin: what was happening?