Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[TedT]

How much does God love Satan?

None now.

But when Satan was created GOD loved him like HE loved everyone, ie, perfectly because HE is pure love and cannot create evil or something, someone, HE hates. But now HE hates, Proverbs 6:16-19: God hates not just actions, but people who commit them so something serious must have changed...something like GOD making a proclamation of HIS divinity and the gospel, Col 1:23, and asking everyone to chose by their free will to have faith without proof that HE was telling us the truth and promising that everyone who put their faith in HIS words as the truth would be chosen to be HIS heavenly Bride even if they were to fall into sin
but
also warning everyone that those who chose by their free will to rebuke HIS words as lies and HIM as a liar and a false god would be sinning an unforgivable sin, eternally unfit to become HIS bride and therefore would end in hell under HIS eternal wrath.

And thus some beloved became the hated...NOT by HIS will but by the free will of the creature.

 

[atpollard]

Proverbs 6:16-19 [ESV]

There are six things that the LORD hates, ​

seven that are an abomination to him: ​

haughty eyes, a lying tongue, ​

and hands that shed innocent blood, ​

a heart that devises wicked plans, ​

feet that make haste to run to evil, ​

a false witness who breathes out lies, ​

and one who sows discord among brothers.​

(Just presenting the referenced scripture for anyone to read more conveniently.)

 

[brightfame52]

None now.

But when Satan was created GOD loved him like HE loved everyone, ie, perfectly because HE is pure love and cannot create evil or something, someone, HE hates. But now HE hates, Proverbs 6:16-19: God hates not just actions, but people who commit them so something serious must have changed.

So something can separate us from the love that is in Christ Jesus? Romans 8:39

 

[TedT]

So something can separate us from the love that is in Christ Jesus? Romans 8:39

No sir...nothing.

But we were not created "in Christ." We came into Christ by a free will decision of faith in Him as their saviour after a proclamation of HIS gospel of election and salvation for elect sinners. The only thing different in PCE theology is that this happened before the creation of the physical universe. This is how we became HIS elect, HIS sheep and the people of HIS kingdom.

But when HE called us to come out from among our friends who had become reprobate (ie, not HIS children, Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.) by rebuking HIM as a liar and a false god, some of HIS elect rebelled against this call, becoming HIS sheep gone astray into sin, believing it was unloving to damn anyone for mere unfaith etc, not understanding the addictive quality of evil, nor that new evil can become leavend into deep deep evil.

When they became the sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful children, the sinful good seed aka the sinful people of His kingdom, they lost their free will and their faith. They needed redemption to be able to regain their free will by rebirth and their faith by the sanctification of having to live with the reprobate, Matt 13:27-30, to learn about the depth of evil making their removal to hell and absolute necessity and to have their addiction broken by HIS fatherly discipline, Heb 12:5-11. Iow, they were sown into the world with the reprobate as in Matt 13:36-39.

The return to their first free will faith is called receiving their saving faith by the grace of GOD.

 

[brightfame52]

No sir...nothing

Did you say God once loved Satan?

 

[TedT]

I'm suggesting that HE loved the person HE created with the same love as anyone/everyone else HE created until Satan rebelled against HIS proclamation of divinity and the gospel.

I'm curious how many ways you might like me to say it?

 

[atpollard]

I'm suggesting that HE loved the person HE created with the same love as anyone/everyone else HE created until Satan rebelled against HIS proclamation of divinity and the gospel.

I'm curious how many ways you might like me to say it?

You should say it in Latin … everything sounds more authoritative in Latin.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm suggesting that HE loved the person HE created with the same love as anyone/everyone else HE created until Satan rebelled against HIS proclamation of divinity and the gospel.

I'm curious how many ways you might like me to say it?

Did you say God once loved Satan? Yes or no

 

[brightfame52]

The condemnation they were ordained to in Jude 1:4 is described in Vs 13 Jude 1:13

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:

a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.

Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal ! 2

 

[TedT]

Did you say God once loved Satan? Yes or no

I have answered that question twice, yes....I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to share my thoughts.

Do you realy believe GOd created people HE hated? Really??

 

[brightfame52]

The condemnation they were ordained to in Jude 1:4 is described in Vs 13 Jude 1:13

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:

a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.

Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal ! Q

 

[atpollard]

I have answered that question twice, yes....I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to share my thoughts.

Do you realy believe GOd created people HE hated? Really??

I disagree with your opinion about Satan (see John 8:44), but when someone tells you what THEY believe, they are probably correct ... that probably IS what they believe!
So to stating your opinion.

 

[civic]

I disagree with your opinion about Satan (see John 8:44), but when someone tells you what THEY believe, they are probably correct ... that probably IS what they believe!
So to stating your opinion.

But he wasn’t Satan until the fall. That’s his fallen name and identity

 

[atpollard]

But he wasn’t Satan until the fall. That’s his fallen name and identity

Juliet:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

Romeo:
I take thee at thy word:
Call me but love, and I'll be new baptized;
Henceforth I never will be Romeo.
- Romeo & Juliet, Act II, Scene II

['tis all semantics]

Jesus:
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
- John 8:44

When does "the beginning" start?

• [Genesis 1:1] In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
• [John 1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[civic]

Juliet:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

Romeo:
I take thee at thy word:
Call me but love, and I'll be new baptized;
Henceforth I never will be Romeo.
- Romeo & Juliet, Act II, Scene II

['tis all semantics]

Jesus:
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
- John 8:44

When does "the beginning" start?

• [Genesis 1:1] In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
• [John 1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Who was he before the fall and what does the Bible describe he did in heaven ?

 

[brightfame52]

Gods reprobation of men, was deliberate and its active unto the vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Its deliberate, in that just as a potter deliberately makes a pot for the purpose He wants it to serve, So God contrived within Himself to make some men for the purpose of destruction.

God is active in that He actually fits them for destruction :

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word fitted katartizō means:

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

The word also in the greek is in the passive voice, meaning that they are being fitted for destruction, they are being acted upon, so God is the active primary force.

Some may argue that its in the middle voice, and that would also be correct, because since God has all Power, men cannot but comply with the purpose of God and fit themselves for destruction at the same time, so they are culpable ! 3

 

[civic]

Gods reprobation of men, was deliberate and its active unto the vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Its deliberate, in that just as a potter deliberately makes a pot for the purpose He wants it to serve, So God contrived within Himself to make some men for the purpose of destruction.

God is active in that He actually fits them for destruction :

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word fitted katartizō means:

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

The word also in the greek is in the passive voice, meaning that they are being fitted for destruction, they are being acted upon, so God is the active primary force.

Some may argue that its in the middle voice, and that would also be correct, because since God has all Power, men cannot but comply with the purpose of God and fit themselves for destruction at the same time, so they are culpable ! 3

That’s the elect/ chosen people of God on that passage , the Jews.

So much for your doctrine that just failed the smell test. You are reading your false premises into Roman’s .

hope this helps !!!

 

[TedT]

When does "the beginning" start?

• [Genesis 1:1] In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
• [John 1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Ahhh, the beginning:

Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? HAVE YOU NOT HEARD? HAS IT NOT BEEN TOLD YOU FROM THE BEGINNING? Have you not understood SINCE THE EARTH WAS FOUNDED?

A dogma hidden by eisegesis?

First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD, Isaiah 40:10. That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life or during a pre-earth life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straightforwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to pre-conception existence (PCE) theology, simple and straightforward.

This is one of the reasons I believe that beginning refers to the proclamation of Col 1:23 when HE revealed HIS divinity and HIS gospel of election and salvation and asked us to choose whether to put our faith in HIM without proof as telling the truth to become HIS elect, chosen for salvation and to be HIS Bride
or
to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god by faith without proof to become the reprobate in this fall, eternally unfit to become HIS Bride, fit only to be separated for eternity in the outer darkness.

 

[brightfame52]

That’s the elect/ chosen people of God on that passage , the Jews.

Jews and Gentiles

 

[atpollard]

Who was he before the fall and what does the Bible describe he did in heaven ?

Well, "satan" means "the adversary" or "the accuser" [Hebrew really needs more words so each word didn't need to have so many meanings], so most of "before the fall" had no man existing and not much left to accuse anyone of. If the symbolism of dragons and stars is correct, "he whose name we cannot agree on" managed to pick a fight with the only being available to be an adversary [the great I AM].

I am not an expert, but he sounds kinda like a jerk to me.