Because it contradicts and defames HIS loving righteousness and justice.
Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
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brightfame52
Active Member
No it doesn't, that is your opinion
brightfame52
Active Member
The Bible teaches the truth of reprobation, in that God has created men and hath decreed their everlasting destruction, which are called in scripture vessels of wrath, and vessels to dishonor Rom 9:22
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The vessels of wrath, in the purpose of God, while they live, are being fitted for destruction. So there's no hope of salvation from this destruction as long as they live, for that would be contrary to Gods purpose for them !
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The vessels of wrath, in the purpose of God, while they live, are being fitted for destruction. So there's no hope of salvation from this destruction as long as they live, for that would be contrary to Gods purpose for them !
civic
Active Member
God doesn't make anyone sin, they do that on and by their own volition.
God temps no msn to sin or do evil. see James 1:13
brightfame52
Active Member
Who said that ? This is about God predestinated some to hell
No one was predestined to hell before they chose to be sinful in HIS sight by rejecting HIS claims to be divine and to be our only saviour from enslavement to sin...
ImCo:,
the long answer from PCE theology is:
The nature of predestination in PCE theology:
Once upon a time, the three Persons who shared the unique attributes of Godliness, and who called their Unity YHWH, decided to increase the amount of love They shared by creating others who could share with Them Their loving nature (or image) and so increase the amount of love in existence.
But They realized only a truly free will choice to love would enable the created person to become a real loving person.
Creating a person who is merely a tape recorder saying, "I love you, I love you," is obviously inadequate. Causing such fear, awe or dread in a person so they say, ever so fondly, "I love you," is also inadequate to increase the amount of true love in existence.
Therefore They had to set up such a situation in which a created person could become a loving person by their own real choice. Such a choice would have to be a true free will choice uncoerced by anything at all.
Nothing in their created nature could move them to choose love or hate, good or evil.
Nothing in their experience could move them to choose love or hate, good or evil.
Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could move them to choose good or evil, love or hate.
In other words, they had to be completely and truly innocent.
It was also apparent that a choice to reject the call to becoming a loving person (in God's image) was to become totally estranged from the Will of God, and the reason for their creation, which is the definition of evil, Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation. God also knew that such evil children would never quit hating Him and His loving followers nor would they ever quit trying to corrupt or destroy them so He knew such a choice to become evil meant the evil child of God would have to be separated from the rest of creation for eternity; separated from the joys of God's love and His other children. This place of separation from the will and love of God is called hell.
A free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable and apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definitions: A cannot be not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.
Therefore this choice to have any meaning at all, GOD had to respect this choice as sacrosanct and immutable.
The possibility of a true increase in the amount of real love in existence also meant the possibility of someone (or all) choosing to become evil (rejecting God's will for them) and so bringing evil into God's creation.
The other problem They faced was Their Glory. If They showed Themselves to Their creations in all Their glory, it would be a coercion upon these people to bow to these obviously superior beings and thus destroy their ability to truly love. So They chose in Their wisdom to hide Their glory and to look to be as one of us, the created beings, Their children.
Then They came to the question: if They knew that one of their children would in fact make a free will choice to reject their offer of love and thus become estranged from Them (evil) forever, would it not be better if the person was not created and so miss the sufferings of hell?
Since we know from HIS revelations to us that some indeed will end in hell, it is no great leap of faith to understand that GOD's omniscience did not cover the true free will decisions of HIS creation until after the decisions were created by them.
Once all these decisions were in place, the three Godly spirits created the perfect number of innocent children and lived among them as they explored each other and the spirit place they were in.
Finally the perfect time came for God to start the process of increasing the amount of love in existence. First They announced that though They looked the same as everyone else, They were in fact Godly and so were worthy of being worshipped as Gods in a way none of the others could ever be. They also claimed to have created everyone else for the purpose of becoming loving beings and that that process would start with them putting their faith in the Three as GOD and in the Son as the only saviour from the consequences of choosing to be sinful in HIS sight.
They explained the nature of a true free will choice and also the nature of of the consequences of the choice fixing their inner nature forever into the mold of their choice. Then the consequences of becoming evil were explored including the necessity of the separation called hell, and that the act of putting their faith in Them would save them from ever having to experience hell themselves.
Some enterprising spirits asked: "But what if we choose to bow to you as God to escape hell and then ignored you forever?"
God told them that once they bowed and became His 'obedient' children, no matter how far they might stray from His will into evil or how strongly they might reject His love, that because of their free will choice He could always return them to the results of that choice and help them to become the holy, perfect, loving children that would increase the amount of love in existence.
In fact He promised to do all that was necessary to abrogate their sins and make them holy and acceptable to be in His holy presence and to become HIS Bride.
And so the community of spirits pondered and discussed these revelations among themselves until they knew their inner heart's desire and then came the time of choice, the time of testing the spirits.
The vast majority chose to bow and to become loving spirits in God's image for whatever reason but a few rejected the Three, calling Them liars and boasters and claimed they were the equal of the Three and so refused to bow, declaring that they too were worthy of worship and that the love they had already was as good as Godly love anytime.
God then asked the obedient children to "come out from among" the evil children explaining that only once the obedient rejected the evil children in their heart could they become holy (untainted by sin) and learn how to love as God loved.
But some of the obedient children at this time chose to rebel against this call to reject the evil children, claiming a real love for them, that they were not all that bad etc, thus falling into sin themselves and becoming sinners outside the will but not the love of God.
God again called all the remaining obedient to come apart from the fallen children who had previously bowed but some refused this call and fell themselves into becoming sinners and so it was repeated until every spirit had finished choosing exactly where it stood in relation to the call / will of God and their relationship with the other children.
This process of a true free will choice separated the children into 2 main camps, those damned to hell and those destined to heaven. Those destined to heaven were also separated into those who never rejected God's will for them from those who sinned at the first call to come away from the damned, and those who sinned later by refusing to leave behind their heavenly but now sinful friends and so on and so on.
Once this process was complete, God in His Majesty revealed Himself in all His GLORY, Rom 1:20, Job 38:7, proving to e ery spirit the consequences of their choice of putting their faith in HIM as GOD or of rejecting Him by faith as a liar and a false god.
Then God created the Universe as a place those destined to become holy and loving could live with the damned, Matt 13:27-30, and learn the true nature of the never relenting evil in the hearts of the damned until they learned to be holy and to reject the evil of the damned.
And so the sinners Adam and Eve came to Earth as per Matt 13:36-39, to live in the garden to undergo the experience of living in sin until they could reject sin for holiness and become ready to learn how to love.
This process of perfecting His chosen children is still ongoing but if the signs are right, perhaps it is nearly over and we are in the last days of the purification of the last of those sinners who are predestined to Heaven.
This theology is from pre-conception existence theology (PCE) in that it supposes that we existed before our conception here on earth.
brightfame52
Active Member
False, some were predestined to hell before they ever existed
atpollard
Active Member
Scripture never actually states that. It is certainly a valid conclusion using human logic, but God never makes this claim explicitly. God EXPLICITLY states "those predestined" in the context of "saved" (specifically ... called, justified & glorified ... Romans 8). God also makes specific mention of "enduring vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9). However both SCRIPTURE and the Reformed Confessions (like the WCF and London Confession) are careful to apply "predestined" only to salvation and use other terms to describe the fate of those "not saved".
from the WCF:
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto
everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. [71]
[71]
- ROM 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
- EPH 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
- PRO 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
atpollard
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
It actually implies that Rom 9
Oh, I will love you so much that I just neeeeeed to damn you to eternal suffering once you are created.
Though you will be only as evil as every other totally depraved sinner I will create, you I will damn, him I will save.
This theology needs to open its heart to the spirit of the scripture, not just see the words...
brightfame52
Active Member
Now did God ordain some to destruction because of sin ? The answer is by no means, for God is not subject to the actions of His creatures, but His Purpose is the primary cause that some are ordained to destruction, however He decreed sin to enter to serve His purpose. Sin served Gods purpose as it related to the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath ! For all things, to include the actions of His creatures, serve the good pleasure of His will ! Eph 1:5,11
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 2
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 2
brightfame52
Active Member
Another scripture that teaches some men were ordained, predestinated to condemnation is Jude 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:
designate, appoint, assign, determine
So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:
designate, appoint, assign, determine
So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !
atpollard
Active Member
A. R. Fausset has an interesting commentary on Jude 1:4
According to Fausset, these reprobate men were not “ordained” particularly (God did not pre-condemn those specific unborn individuals), however, God had throughout history demonstrated his character and provided ample warning that ANYONE that does what they were doing would face God’s harsh condemnation. Thus it is ALL “ungodly men” that are ordained to judgement … because God assuredly judges the ungodly.
(Just offering an interesting commentary for consideration.)
4. certain men--implying disparagement.
- crept in unawares--stealthily and unlawfully. See on JF & B for 2Pe 2:1, "privily shall bring in damnable heresies."
- before. . . ordained--Greek, "forewritten," namely, in Peter's prophecy Jud 1:17, 18; and in Paul's before that, 1Ti 4:1 2Ti 3:1; and by implication in the judgments which overtook the apostate angels. The disobedient Israelites, Sodom and Gomorrah, Balaam and Core, and which are written "for an example" ( Jud 1:7, and Jud 1:5, 6, 11 ). God's eternal character as the Punisher of sin, as set forth in Scripture "of old," is the ground on which such apostate characters are ordained to condemnation. Scripture is the reflection of God's book of life in which believers are "written among the living." "Forewritten" is applied also in Rom 15:4to the things written in Scripture. Scripture itself reflects God's character from everlasting, which is the ground of His decrees from everlasting. BENGEL explains it as an abbreviated phrase for, "They were of old foretold by Enoch ( Jud 1:14, who did not write his prophecies), and afterwards marked out by the written word."
- to this condemnation--Jude graphically puts their judgment as it were present before the eyes, "THIS." Enoch's prophecy comprises the "ungodly men" of the last days before Christ's coming to judgment, as well as their forerunners, the "ungodly men" before the flood, the type of the last judgment ( Mat 24:37-392Pe 3:3-7 ). The disposition and the doom of both correspond.
- the grace of our God--A phrase for the Gospel especially sweet to believers who appropriate God in Christ as "our God," and so rendering the more odious the vile perversity of those who turn the Gospel state of grace and liberty into a ground of licentiousness, as if their exemption from the law gave them a license to sin.
- denying the only Lord--The oldest manuscripts, versions, and Fathers omit "God," which follows in English Version. Translate as the Greek, "the only Master"; here used of Jesus Christ, who is at once Master and "Lord" (a different Greekword). See on JF & B for 2Pe 2:1. By virtue of Christ's perfect oneness with the Father, He, as well as the Father, is termed "the ONLY" God and "MASTER." Greek, "Master," implies God's absolute ownership to dispose of His creatures as He likes.
(Just offering an interesting commentary for consideration.)
Yes, I agree
but I do not agree that HE did this by fiat before their creation or by personal decree before any creation with a hidden reason or no reason at all, a distinct calumny of HIS good name,
but
whether the person answered HIS proclamation of HIS divinity and the gospel of sin and salvation, Col 1:23, with faith in HIS words being the truth or by renouncing them as the lies of a false god.
Faith in HIS proclamation entered you into election and salvation from any sin. A free will rebuke of HIM as a false god and a liar, the unforgivable sin, entered you into eternal condemnation.
brightfame52 said:
False, some were predestined to hell before they ever existed
...............
Oh, I will love you so much that I just neeeeeed to damn you to eternal suffering once you are created.
Though you will be only as evil as every other totally depraved sinner I will create, you I will damn, him I will save.
This theology needs to open its heart to the spirit of the scripture, not just see the words...
False, some were predestined to hell before they ever existed
...............
Oh, I will love you so much that I just neeeeeed to damn you to eternal suffering once you are created.
Though you will be only as evil as every other totally depraved sinner I will create, you I will damn, him I will save.
This theology needs to open its heart to the spirit of the scripture, not just see the words...
brightfame52
Active Member
I believe those in Jude 4 are vessels of Wrath God created for destruction.
I know and yet I do not accept your point because designated does not necessarily mean created for and designating a person for destruction for sinning the unforgivable sin has none of the insult/slander to HIS goodness and loving kindness that creating them for wrath carries.
atpollard
Active Member
How much does God love Satan?
You seem to paint a ‘god’ incapable of wrath or justice … which the FLOOD and Babylon exile and some of Jesus’ sermons suggest “tain’t so”.
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay you have your opinion
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