brightfame52
Active Member
No the point is there, you just cant receive it. Thats nt my issue
By Nature Children of Wrath as others !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Why do you think I cannot receive it?
brightfame52
Active Member
You kidding me right ? You have been opposing everything I show you, duh
Actually, I have not. I have not exegeted the text yet. I have only questioned your method of interpretation.
brightfame52
Active Member
You have
I noticed you used the King James Version for your translation of Ephesians 2:3. Why is that? The Greek ἀνεστράφημέν (from ἀναστρέφω) is best translated “lived” as in the ESV or the NRSV. “Conversation” in Older English meant the manner of life. It comes from the Latin word conversātiō which meant “living together, way of life, manner of conduct, intercourse (social or moral).” "Lived" is a much more contemporary way of expressing the Greek ἀναστρέφω. The BDAG puts it this way: “to conduct oneself in terms of certain principles, act, behave, conduct oneself, live, . . . always with the kind of behavior more exactly described.”
So, let’s put Ephesians 2:3 back into its immediate context. Here is Eph. 2:1–5 in the NRSV:
So let us see what is being said here. The “you” (pl.) here is the Gentiles. That is evident from 2:11. The “we” are the Jews, who were the first to set their hope on Christ (1:11–12). The inheritance belongs to them. The Gentiles, when they believed receive the seal of the Holy Spirit (1:13). The pronouns in Ephesians are very important for understanding what is being said.
Gentile Christians were once dead following the course of this world, etc. That is, they were pagans and idol worshippers. Jews lived among them in the passions of the flesh. (In Ephesus, these would be considered Diaspora Jews.) They were, BY NATURE (φύσις), children of wrath, just like the Gentiles (everyone else). So both Jews and Gentiles were children of wrath. But God, rich in mercy, even when we were dead, made us alive again together (with you the Gentiles) with Christ. That means both Jews and Gentiles participate in Christ through faith (2:8). Gentiles, who once were far off, have now been brought near (2:11–13).
Paul is arguing for a united community of Jews and Gentiles where the wall of animosity has been broken down (2:14–16). This new community takes place in Christ.
What is key here is that both groups were, by nature, children of wrath. God’s mercy changes that nature through new birth.
I will not comment on the other verses at this time since my time is limited. You can find my argument about vessels of wrath and mercy in my book – Mercy for All.
So, let’s put Ephesians 2:3 back into its immediate context. Here is Eph. 2:1–5 in the NRSV:
2:1 You were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
So let us see what is being said here. The “you” (pl.) here is the Gentiles. That is evident from 2:11. The “we” are the Jews, who were the first to set their hope on Christ (1:11–12). The inheritance belongs to them. The Gentiles, when they believed receive the seal of the Holy Spirit (1:13). The pronouns in Ephesians are very important for understanding what is being said.
Gentile Christians were once dead following the course of this world, etc. That is, they were pagans and idol worshippers. Jews lived among them in the passions of the flesh. (In Ephesus, these would be considered Diaspora Jews.) They were, BY NATURE (φύσις), children of wrath, just like the Gentiles (everyone else). So both Jews and Gentiles were children of wrath. But God, rich in mercy, even when we were dead, made us alive again together (with you the Gentiles) with Christ. That means both Jews and Gentiles participate in Christ through faith (2:8). Gentiles, who once were far off, have now been brought near (2:11–13).
Paul is arguing for a united community of Jews and Gentiles where the wall of animosity has been broken down (2:14–16). This new community takes place in Christ.
What is key here is that both groups were, by nature, children of wrath. God’s mercy changes that nature through new birth.
I will not comment on the other verses at this time since my time is limited. You can find my argument about vessels of wrath and mercy in my book – Mercy for All.
brightfame52
Active Member
Why not use the kjv ? Since when did that become a crime? The elect can never be under Gods wrath whatever version you use. Gods wrath is only upon them where sin is imputed. There is no sin imputed to Gods elect, their sin was imputed to Christ.
No one has said it is a crime. In fact, one of the journals that I write for requires the KJV as the primary text. However, I sometimes have to paraphrase and explain text because of the very issue I demonstrated. You would do well to move to a more modern version, such as the NRSV or ESV.
I do not think you understand what the term "elect" means. Israel is primarily God's elect through the patriarchs (Romans 11:28-29; "but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" Also, 9:4-5). Gentiles are adopted and share in the promise when they believe. However, being God's elect does not imply they are saved. In fact, God's wrath came to them in exile because of their disobedience.
Imputation is a confusing topic. If you read Romans 4, righteousness is imputed ("considered" or "declared") through faith, not through election (4:24-25). So even if you were individually elected from before time (you were not, but hypothetically, let's explore this), that does not mean your sins were imputed to Christ. He clearly died for us, but the term "impute" (logizomai; to declare) is not used here because that would mean that Christ is declared a sinner, which he is not. Christ, the innocent one, gave himself for us. He did not become a sinner (Heb. 4:15).
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No doubt, when reading that last statement, someone will have a "gotcha" moment here and say, "What about Romans 8:3 or Galatians 3:13, or 2 Corinthians 5:21?"
These are all important verses (all verses are important), but they do not support the idea that Christ became a sinner. Romans 8:3 speaks of God sending his son in the flesh to condemn sin in the flesh. This is tied to the slavery to sin in Romans 6 and the inability of the law to overcome sin in the flesh in Romans 7. In Galatians 3:13 the curse is the crucifixion itself, not the imputation of sin. Our curse is overcome by the sacrifice Christ has made for us. Per Käsemann, 2 Corinthians 5:21is a piece of creedal material (used in the fellowship) and refers to the punishment for sin rather than sin as a power.
I am sure you can find a few others, but I think my point will stand. To impute sin to Christ is to declare him a sinner. That we cannot do. He sacrifices himself for the sin of the world, but he remains innocent.
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atpollard
Active Member
Romans 5:6-11 [ESV]
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die-- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
civic
Active Member
Well said !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
@Swordman
No it's not, it's a transfer of the sinners guilt of sin to Christ account in a legal transaction, it doesn't alter Christ purity and inherent sinlessness. In the same fashion when the sinner is imputed with His Righteousness , it's a legal transaction and doesn't alter the sinners inherent sinfulness
So Christ becomes a sinner, right? You just said the guilt is transferred. Therefore, he is guilty of sin. Moreover, the person is still a sinner. Therefore, you are not saved from the power of sin. It is just a fiction. In fact, some consider this view a "legal fiction." I do not think God deals in fictions.
I also do not see much Scriptural support for your view. In fact, Paul says -
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8:5-8).
If you are still a sinner, one enslaved to sin, then your mind is set on the flesh.
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civic
Active Member
One big mistake made by calvinists is to conflate elect with salvation. The Jews/Israel were Gods chosen people yet most were not saved. They also misuse the Potter and the clay since the context in Jeremiah is Gods elect/chosen people that God uses for His purposes with those who believe Him and those who remain in unbelief.
civic
Active Member
Amen brother !
brightfame52
Active Member
There you go misrepresenting what I said.
Wilber
Active Member
True representing Calvinism:
According to Calvinism, every person—minus Jesus—has been corrupted by sin and, being spiritually dead, is totally unable to respond to God’s gospel call. But God, in His mercy, elected to save some persons and to leave the majority of humanity to perish forever in the lake of fire. God’s election is based on His unconditional choice and not on anything within the lost sinner.
Furthermore, to bring about the salvation of the elect, God sent Christ into the world to die an atoning death only for those whom He elected to save. And, having called His elect, God regenerates them, gives them a special faith to believe, and then works in their hearts in such a way that His call is irresistible and effective to save.
Makes me think of the Pharisees.
Jesus clashed with the Pharisees primarily due to their hypocrisy, pride, and misinterpretation of God's law. The Pharisees prioritized their own man-made traditions, rituals, and legalistic rules over the spirit of the law, which led them to neglect mercy, justice, and faithfulness while seeking public praise. They also created a "hedge around the law" that made it difficult for people to follow, and their self-righteousness blinded them to the true meaning of God's will and Jesus's identity.
According to Calvinism, every person—minus Jesus—has been corrupted by sin and, being spiritually dead, is totally unable to respond to God’s gospel call. But God, in His mercy, elected to save some persons and to leave the majority of humanity to perish forever in the lake of fire. God’s election is based on His unconditional choice and not on anything within the lost sinner.
Furthermore, to bring about the salvation of the elect, God sent Christ into the world to die an atoning death only for those whom He elected to save. And, having called His elect, God regenerates them, gives them a special faith to believe, and then works in their hearts in such a way that His call is irresistible and effective to save.
Makes me think of the Pharisees.
Jesus clashed with the Pharisees primarily due to their hypocrisy, pride, and misinterpretation of God's law. The Pharisees prioritized their own man-made traditions, rituals, and legalistic rules over the spirit of the law, which led them to neglect mercy, justice, and faithfulness while seeking public praise. They also created a "hedge around the law" that made it difficult for people to follow, and their self-righteousness blinded them to the true meaning of God's will and Jesus's identity.
You just said (without Scriptural support) that sin was imputed to him. That means he was declared (logizomai) a sinner.
brightfame52
Active Member
You misrepresented what I said
civic
Active Member
No as he explained what you said according to scripture that you misrepresented. He gave you the logical conclusion to your view.
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