Did God ( Christ ) die ?

[GeneZ]

It was definitely a very "neat" thing that Nicodemus did for Jesus. There were many great acts of faith manifested by OT Saints before Pentecost, that's for sure, but there is still no explicit mention of regeneration even then. There's no doubt that the Holy Spirit was with believers before Pentecost. The problem is that the Holy Spirit was not yet in believers before Pentecost. See John 14:17.

This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him because he abides with you, and he will be in you.

That's because only by the Holy Spirit can you be regenerated (Holy Spirit in you) and the Holy Spirit was poured out only at Pentecost. Once Christ ascended into Heaven, only then did he pour out the Holy Spirit to all believers, not before. If there's another way to be regenerated other than by the Holy Spirit being poured out, then by all means do tell us.

Therefore, regeneration happened at Pentecost for all believers. The Holy Spirit fell on Gentiles a short time later.

There is confusion here. Its becoming apparent that many do not understand what regeneration entails.

There could be no Torah if regeneration was not a reality for OT believers.
Many today have been conditioned to think of "born again" meaning receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I used to accept that definition you work with without thinking... until I learned that we know the things of God by means of our human spirit.
The Holy Spirit is provider of special enabling power (grace) for our whole being. A power of grace that OT believers could not have.

Jesus was describing OT regeneration in John 3. He was not talking about Pentecost.
If Jesus meant born again to mean what took place at Pentecost? John 3 would have to read quite different than what He was explaining to a Jew who was still under the Law - Nicodemus.

I am going to add bold fonts to show what would have been needed to be describing what took place at Pentecost.

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. ​

He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. ​

For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again​

unless they become indwelled permanently by the Holy Spirit to be born again.”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second ​

time into their mother’s womb to be born!”​

​

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water ​

and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit but the Spirit enters you to live ​

in you. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it ​

pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with ​

everyone born of the Spirit.”
​

Jesus not once mentions the indwelling Holy Spirit to Nicodemus. Only that the Spirit will give birth to spirit. That spirit being our human spirit.

Can a mother give birth to herself? No. Jesus said that the Spirit will give birth to spirit, like flesh gives birth to flesh.
Our human spirit's essence is "spirit." But not the Holy Spirit himself.


Jesus did not say!

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit must enter you to live in you. "​

Nothing like that was said by Jesus to Nicodemus....
Now if He had said that? Then that would have been describing what took place at Pentecost.

It is tricky and easy to miss and find confusing.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is not a birth. Its a divine benevolent possession. That is what took place at Pentecost.

grace and peace .............

 

[GeneZ]

That's it? That's what you've got?

Gene look the passage you've quoted doesn't say ANYTHING even about what Nicodemus spiritual state was except that he did something nice for Christ after he died.

... Nicodemus did something nice for a man that his fellow leaders in the Sanhedrin hated and just had murdered?

​

​

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood ​

has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. " Matthew 16:15-17​

Your version?

"Peter just had something nice to say about Jesus... "

.......

 

[synergy]

There is confusion here.

Both @Rockson and I are not confused. Why are you confused? We gave you Biblical passages and you conveniently skipped right over them as if they didn't exist.

There's no doubt that the Holy Spirit was with believers before Pentecost. The problem is that the Holy Spirit was not yet in believers before Pentecost. See John 14:17.

This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him because he abides with you, and he will be in you.

That's because only by the Holy Spirit can you be regenerated (Holy Spirit in you) and the Holy Spirit was poured out only at Pentecost. Once Christ ascended into Heaven, only then did he pour out the Holy Spirit to all believers, not before. If there's another way to be regenerated other than by the Holy Spirit being poured out, then by all means do tell us.

Therefore, regeneration happened at Pentecost for all believers. The Holy Spirit fell on Gentiles a short time later

Its becoming apparent that many do not understand what regeneration entails.

There could be no Torah if regeneration was not a reality for OT believers.

John 14:17 and Jesus pouring out the Holy Spirit only at Pentecost proves otherwise.

Many today have been conditioned to think of "born again" meaning receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I used to accept that definition you work with without thinking... until I learned that we know the things of God by means of our human spirit.
The Holy Spirit is provider of special enabling power (grace) for our whole being. A power of grace that OT believers could not have.

Again, I'm not discounting the grace that the Holy Spirit imparted to OT Saints when He was with them. Now in NT times the Holy Spirit is in believers. See John 14:17.

Jesus was describing OT regeneration in John 3. He was not talking about Pentecost.
If Jesus meant born again to mean what took place at Pentecost? John 3 would have to read quite different than what He was explaining to a Jew who was still under the Law - Nicodemus.

I am going to add bold fonts to show what would have been needed to be describing what took place at Pentecost.

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. ​

He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. ​

For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”​

​

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again​

unless they become indwelled permanently by the Holy Spirit to be born again.”​

If you would read John 14:17 and accept that Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit only at Pentecost, then you would realize thst there is no strike through required

​

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second ​

time into their mother’s womb to be born!”​

​

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water ​

and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit but the Spirit enters you to live ​

in you. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it ​

pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with ​

everyone born of the Spirit.”​

​

Jesus not once mentions the indwelling Holy Spirit to Nicodemus. Only that the Spirit will give birth to spirit. That spirit being our human spirit.

This is not automatically true just because you say so. You need to Biblically prove this.

Can a mother give birth to herself? No. Jesus said that the Spirit will give birth to spirit, like flesh gives birth to flesh.
Our human spirit's essence is "spirit." But not the Holy Spirit himself.

The Bible explicitly tells us to partake of Divine Nature (Divine Spirit), not to partake of a human spirit.

Jesus did not say!

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit must enter you to live in you. "​

Nothing like that was said by Jesus to Nicodemus....
Now if He had said that? Then that would have been describing what took place at Pentecost.

Once you accept what is written in John 14:17 and accept that Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit only at Pentecost,, you will understand better.

It is tricky and easy to miss and find confusing.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is not a birth. Its a divine benevolent possession. That is what took place at Pentecost.

Without Bible verse support, your statements are just pure speculations on your part.

 

[sawdust]

Yes, we are all made n God's Spirit. But to be bornagain, we need to be indwelt by God. We need both.
By your reasoning, the disciples did not have this humman spirit you talk about because ere unable to understand Jesys without asking questions about what He meant

The indwelling of the Spirit is not regeneration. Adam was not created with the Spirit indwelling. The indwelling never occurred until Pentecost. In the Church age our bodies have become the temple of God instead of a temple building.

There is a difference between not understanding something and having to learn and being unable to understand because you don't have the capacity. Those who are not born again are not able to learn spiritual matters. Have you not spoken with people who have said how the scriptures came alive after they believed in Christ? Being born again doesn't grant you instant knowledge of God, it gives you the capacity so the Holy Spirit has something to work with. (so to speak)

Trying to understand spiritual matters without a human spirit is like trying to see the world without eyes in your head. Can't be done. This is why we need to be born again.

Read what it says. The Spirit is not birthing Himself.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[sawdust]

born again to see(experience) the kingdom Understanding parts of the kingdom does not save. Jesus was telling Nicdemus a truth unknown to OT saints, "you belie in God, believe in Me."

No He wasn't (referring to the bit I bolded). We dealt with this earlier. (you may have missed the posts)

Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what he meant by the new birth because Nicodemus considered himself to be a teacher.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

 

[sawdust]

Only by the Holy Spirit can you be regenerated and the Holy Spirit was poured out only at Pentecost.

The Spirit has been working in this world before Adam hit the ground running. The pouring out at Pentecost was the first time He worked in that particular manner but not the first time He did anything.

You keep thinking regeneration is the Holy Spirit in you, but it is not. This is why you can't understand what is being said. Regeneration is you going from being body and soul to being spirit, soul and body. It is a work only the Spirit of God can do but has nothing to do with Him being in, on or with you.

Again ... Spirit gives birth to spirit. He is not giving birth to Himself.

 

[sawdust]

If there's another way to be regenerated other than by the Holy Spirit being poured out, then by all means do tell us.

We have been telling you. You don't believe it. You even quoted scripture showing Jesus telling his disciples they do have spiritual understanding before Pentecost yet He said you can't understand spiritual things unless you're born again. Logic ought to tell you his disciples had to be born again in order to see. They had the spiritual equipment (a human spirit) to discern spiritual matters.

This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him because he abides with you, and he will be in you.

The world cannot comprehend because it doesn't have the equipment.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Rockson]

. Regeneration is you going from being body and soul to being spirit, soul and body.

I'd say you're misunderstanding the subject. You always were spirit, soul and body even before saved.

Again ... Spirit gives birth to spirit. He is not giving birth to Himself.

Here is a scripture I'd suggest you need to give some thought to,

As the body without the spirit is dead, ....Jm 2:26

The idea is like our physical body is like a glove. It's not the real you but just a container for the spirit. You take the spirit out of the glove it falls over lifeless. So in your way of thinking though you take the spirit out the body and he body is still alive. It's not dead. But James says it would be dead and you'd take the dead body and bury it.

God does not give you a human spirit when you're born again. Everyone is a spirit born again or not. Analogy.... think of your spirit like a light bulb inside of you. Before born again that bulb is still within the core of your being but....there's no fellowship with the spiritual life of God. . Adam and Eve were spirits before and after they had sinned.

Their spirits degenerated though just like you turn the switch off of your lights. The bulb is still there....it just needs regenerated. Now we call it regeneration and you can only call it a regeneration if indeed the spirit was once generated. Back before the fall mankind's spirits were generated. Your teaching though would say you don't need Regeneration for the spirit doesn't even exist in man. I'd give some thought then that you're misunderstanding the scriptures..

 

[civic]

We have been telling you. You don't believe it. You even quoted scripture showing Jesus telling his disciples they do have spiritual understanding before Pentecost yet He said you can't understand spiritual things unless you're born again. Logic ought to tell you his disciples had to be born again in order to see. They had the spiritual equipment (a human spirit) to discern spiritual matters.



The world cannot comprehend because it doesn't have the equipment.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

No they don't have the Holy Spirit giving them understanding. And the natural/carnal person if you keep on reading the passage since there are no chapter and verse in the original Greek say the following.

1 Cor 3:1- And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

 

[synergy]

The world cannot comprehend because it doesn't have the equipment.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I agree with @civic in that 1 Cor 2:14 does not support your thinking. That's because the audience that Paul is talking to is regenerate and indwelt saints.

Paul is talking that way because that Church was well known for its congregation that was still “carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and was still “babes in Christ” (1 Cor 3:1). So it's the Corinthian believers that is the subject matter of Paul's words. Paul was admonishing all church members to embrace that which the Holy Spirit teaches and not to be a “natural man” who knows nothing of the things of the Spirit. Paul is not talking unbelievers lacking a human spirit. He is applying that verse to the entire congregation that does have the "equipment" but is still foolishly "babes" in their spiritual immaturity. Paul's message is that the entire congregation needs to stop being carnal and to grow up spiritually. That goes for every one of them, not for an imaginary set of unbelievers that supposedly lack a human spirit. So 1 Cor 2:14 can't be used to support your theories.

 

[civic]

We have been telling you. You don't believe it. You even quoted scripture showing Jesus telling his disciples they do have spiritual understanding before Pentecost yet He said you can't understand spiritual things unless you're born again. Logic ought to tell you his disciples had to be born again in order to see. They had the spiritual equipment (a human spirit) to discern spiritual matters.



The world cannot comprehend because it doesn't have the equipment.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There are plenty of believers in the church that don't have spiritual understanding. I've met plenty of them in our small groups, mens discipleship etc...

 

[civic]

If I am having the gift to teach?

And, you say I do not?

Should it matter?

If you say I do?

And, I do not?

Should it matter?

I have been trained and graduated with honors from a Bible college.

A Bible college that I had a dream about ten years before being taken there to visit...
Which did not exist ten years earlier when I was given the dream that changed my life.

What ever I am?
I am by the grace of God.

There is a big difference between teaching your children or by vocation in a high school, college or seminary, and having the spiritual gift of teaching.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, on the particular issue angels can't be redeemed because they are not made in the image of God? Guess he forget about the redemption of the deserts and lions and vipers. The creation itself is to be redeemed so unless he thinks all creation is made in the image of God? I reckon he's simply not thinking. But I'm sure he will come up with some other excuse as why angels can't be made in the image of God.

Strange how he's willing to say there is no direct evidence yet categorically denies even the possibility when scripture implies the opposite. To each his own I guess.

So what is your position? No evidence or know for certain?

The evidence against is clear. Devils believe and are fearful of the damnation they are assured. Knowing the certainty of such damnation, don't you think they'd take action?

 

[praise_yeshua]

My gift is being manifested. Your choice. You decide.

Or lack thereof.

 

[synergy]

You keep thinking regeneration is the Holy Spirit in you, but it is not. This is why you can't understand what is being said. Regeneration is you going from being body and soul to being spirit, soul and body. It is a work only the Spirit of God can do but has nothing to do with Him being in, on or with you.

Again ... Spirit gives birth to spirit. He is not giving birth to Himself.

The human spirit that exists within everyone is what enables us all to understand and communicate our observations (Job 32:8, 18). It is the main thing that distinguishes everyone from animals. By your definition, everyone who is not born again is no better than an animal. That is clearly not true.

Our human spirit enables us to be conscious of our actions and our inner workings: "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him?" (1 Cor 2:11). It is our human spirit, also, that enables God to search our hearts: "The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one's inmost being" (Pro 20:27). That goes for all humans.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But its not an automated process that takes place by default on the merits of being born again. It requires one be willing to suffer when need be after one is born again to gain Christ to know Him.

We have been immersed into a spiritual battle that many fail to become properly trained for fighting. Why? They want to fight it in a way they see as good as to show God he should be proud of the great job they are doing, according to how they would want to see a believer be if they were God.

Instead of being transformed into His image by grace and truth by sound doctrine. By accurate teaching. They have transformed God (by distortions of Scripture) in their minds, into a god of their own liking. Into a god, that as they are as a believer, their god would be proud of how they keep remaining faithful to Him.

Satan and his demons are merciless and are envious of Christians whom they know are destined for great things. They do not care! They will lie in ways that they sense will appeal to Christians who refuse to suffer under pressure which is needed for God's grace to work in divine power to overcome the pressure they are helpless in their own power to overcome. Many will want quick relief and seek safety in numbers, and will bond with a church of like minded believers sharing in common trends in their sin natures.

Here is what Paul told Timothy we will find to be the rule rather than the exception....

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3​

We today are living proof that Paul knew what he was talking about.....

That is why Jesus warned that the way to destruction for believers will be found on the "broad and wide" road...
That many will take it.... And, that only a few will make it, through to finding the life more abundantly that
Jesus told us would be under pressure and narrow. The very kind of Life to be lived in happiness.
A life that He came to earth to give believers....

I don't wish to argue.

I simply say. "Take it, or leave it."

Because its truth.

Yeah.... "take or leave it" indicates a position of authority that you do not have.

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[civic]

Or lack thereof.

Ones Christology, view of the Trinity, man and angels give one a clue, a manifestation of the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. Who speaks for God and who does not. who we should listen to and who we should not. Who is teachable and who is not, who is humble and who is not, who is proud and who is not, who is gracious and who is not, who bears the fruit of the spirit and who does not, who builds others up and who tears them down, who affirms the truth with sound doctrine and who does not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The human spirit that exists within everyone is what enables us all to understand and communicate our observations (Job 32:8, 18). It is the main thing that distinguishes everyone from animals. By your definition, everyone who is not born again is no better than an animal. That is clearly not true.

Our human spirit enables us to be conscious of our actions and our inner workings: "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him?" (1 Cor 2:11). It is our human spirit, also, that enables God to search our hearts: "The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one's inmost being" (Pro 20:27). That goes for all humans.

Absolutely. Well said.

 

[civic]

The human spirit that exists within everyone is what enables us all to understand and communicate our observations (Job 32:8, 18). It is the main thing that distinguishes everyone from animals. By your definition, everyone who is not born again is no better than an animal. That is clearly not true.

Our human spirit enables us to be conscious of our actions and our inner workings: "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him?" (1 Corinthians 2:11). It is our spirit, also, that enables God to search our hearts: "The human spirit is the lamp of the LORD that sheds light on one's inmost being" (Pro 20:27). That goes for all humans.

they probably think it was removed at the fall via the unbiblical sin nature that replaced it.

 

[synergy]

they probably think it was removed at the fall via the unbiblical sin nature that replaced it.

and their erroneous sin nature doctrine leads to the erroneous PSA doctrine which leads to the blasphemous idea of a separation between Jesus and the Father which leads to ....
One error of theirs leads to another error, ad infinitum....
What an absolute disaster!