Did God ( Christ ) die ?

[GeneZ]

So you are paying attention to me......

The Cross destroyed the application of sin. Not that sin wasn't forgiven before the cross.

You (and many many others throughout history) are reading too much into the concepts of dispensationalism here.

"Application of sin?" What are you talking about?

The penalty for sin was what was dealt with on the Cross.
If not? You and I would not be alive.
For God would have wiped out all mankind if God did not provide a way to eliminate the sins of man.

And, why are you dragging dispensationalism into it?

 

[GeneZ]

How do you define legalist?

You never been around legalistic believers?

There is no defining it to a legalist.
If you are grace oriented, the definition would be intuitive, only later to be defined by scripture.

One major glaring example would be the Pharisees resisting Jesus with their religious rules and regulations.
But, their example was obvious.

Its the subtle legalism that certain believers cling to that divides the body of Christ into factions.

 

[charismaticlady]

Jesus spoke of it but it is doctrine that declares Abraham's bosom as being different. The Scriptures do not clearly define "Abraham's bosom". It is more than likely a metaphorical representation of "faith". Not that don't believe it is literal as well. I do.



You can believe that. I don't have to. All I know is they arose from the grave.

Got it. Thank you for explaining further.

I have a different view of the King of Tyre. However....

There is no context of timing. Notice the appeal to Eden (there are other issues here)

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Notice the appeal to "holy mountain of God".

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eden is certainly not first in order here. It is simply a review without any context of timing.

About the King of Tyre, just like the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece, even though they are named after a place, those two are archangels, like Micheal is an archangel. Michael is the archangel over the country of Israel. To Daniel, Gabriel spoke of Michael as being your prince.

Lucifer was a higher ranking angel than Michael. He was a cherubim, like the two guarding the door of the Garden of Eden. Lucifer was positioned over the throne of God with all the other cherubim. Because God resides in all who are born again, we can cast out demons. Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” We have been given the authority to cast out demons ourselves in the name of Jesus. Michael couldn't. Why? Because Michael was an archangel only over Israel. Satan being a cherubim was a higher ranking angel than Michael. Gabriel seems to be God's messenger, but couldn't defeat the Prince of Persia without Michael's help. So I can't tell what Gabriel is in rank. Anyway, they are princes, when Lucifer was a King.

 

[Diserner]

There is no defining it to a legalist.

Uh, I can define my understanding of false legalism.

It is a rejection of the Cross as the fulfillment of the Law, and instead demanding that fulfillment from Christians.

 

[civic]

I want to rightfully recognize that we are very close to believing the same things @civic

I'm just disagreeing with you in the way we're building the same "house". I apologize if I've seemed argumentative. That is not my goal. Thank you!

No worries

 

[Diserner]

dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” We have been given the authority to cast out demons ourselves in the name of Jesus. Michael couldn't. Why? Because Michael was an archangel only over Israel. Satan being a cherubim was a higher ranking angel than Michael.

Key word there: "was." He was. He was also cast out of heaven and stripped of his position.

Satan's authority in this world comes from the transference of man's authority given over to him through sin, not his former rank as a cherub.

Also, that passage is addressed to believers, and is not saying Michael had less authority than believers had, but that ALL of us are to respect the spirit realm and it's hierarchy of God first.

Notice it only takes ONE angel to lock up Satan:

And I saw a messenger, coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain upon his hand;
and he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is Adversary and the Accuser, and bound him for a thousand years,-- (Rev. 20:1-2 ROT)

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Application of sin?" What are you talking about?

The penalty for sin was what was dealt with on the Cross.
If not? You and I would not be alive.
For God would have wiped out all mankind if God did not provide a way to eliminate the sins of man.

And, why are you dragging dispensationalism into it?

Because it is the mentality that is being deployed.....

1. I said clearly that sin was forgiven before the Cross. Can you accept this?

2. Where there is no law, there is no wrath.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

I'm going to let you "chew" on that for a little while.............

 

[praise_yeshua]

About the King of Tyre, just like the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece, even though they are named after a place, those two are archangels, like Micheal is an archangel. Michael is the archangel over the country of Israel. To Daniel, Gabriel spoke of Michael as being your prince.

Lucifer was a higher ranking angel than Michael. He was a cherubim, like the two guarding the door of the Garden of Eden. Lucifer was positioned over the throne of God with all the other cherubim. Because God resides in all who are born again, we can cast out demons. Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” We have been given the authority to cast out demons ourselves in the name of Jesus. Michael couldn't. Why? Because Michael was an archangel only over Israel. Satan being a cherubim was a higher ranking angel than Michael. Gabriel seems to be God's messenger, but couldn't defeat the Prince of Persia without Michael's help. So I can't tell what Gabriel is in rank. Anyway, they are princes, when Lucifer was a King.

Okay, Not that I believe all you said.... However, I don't see that any of this establishes that Satan did not sin until after man was created.

 

[GeneZ]

Uh, I can define my understanding of false legalism.

It is a rejection of the Cross as the fulfillment of the Law, and instead demanding that fulfillment from Christians.

In fear of hurting some here I hesitated.
So I will limit how I say the following...

Typical legalism runs a wide gambit of many things....
Usually best explained by simply citing examples...

A typical very simple list..

Legalists preach....

You can not drink and be a Christian!
You can not dance and be a Christian!
Women can not wear make up and be a Christian!
Etc...

Having rules are one thing, and does not constitute legalism by having rules.
We all need rules that are based upon truth.
Legalism creates biased induced rules, and a legalist will cut you off in anger and condemnation if you break one of the rules.

God is not a legalist.
We may break some rule of God ...
But, He will not cut us off in anger and condemnation like a legalist would.
Instead.. we will need to be restored by mercy and truth from God.

Those who refuse to be restored?
And continually refuse?
They will ultimately suffer the sin onto death... 1 John 5:16-17


1 Corinthians 11:29-31 cites an example of some believers who died the sin onto death...

For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were
more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.



grace and peace ...........

 

[Diserner]

God is not a legalist.
We may break some rule of God ...
But, He will not cut us off in anger and condemnation like a legalist would.
Instead.. we will need to be restored by mercy and truth from God.

You would understand though, that all mercy is dealt to us by the Work of the Cross?

God cannot by any means just ignore sin, the breaking of his Law?

So in that sense "the Law of the Lord endures forever."

 

[GeneZ]

Because it is the mentality that is being deployed.....

1. I said clearly that sin was forgiven before the Cross. Can you accept this?

Jesus proclaimed a person's sins forgiven before the Cross took place. Luke 7:48

Because He knew the Cross was already completed in God's eyes.

2. Where there is no law, there is no wrath.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

I'm going to let you "chew" on that for a little while.............

What's to chew on?

If your father never told you something is bad, and you do it?
He has no right to spank you .

He first must tell you not to do something, and make sure you understand.
In other words... he first gives you the law of the house.

The law of the house, having been understood?
Then that is what brings wrath if you break that law.

 

[sawdust]

Born again, born of God, born of the Spirit and born of Him(Jesus) are all synonyms. We know when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus that he was not born again. Jesus told him of his need to be born from above. The New Birth being born of the Spirit by definition is Regeneration.

Titus 3:5- He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: regeneration, renewal
Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal. the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).

John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:6
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 John 2:29
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:9
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;

1 John 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

1 John 5:4
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.

1 John 5:18-19
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

hope this helps !!!

What's your point? I have already said the new birth is regeneration.

It is crucial to salvation for without it you cannot comprehend spiritual matters and are not saved. Being born of the Spirit is what takes us from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive. We are born body and soul, we need to be born a second time, ie. spiritually. That birth of a human spirit is being born again. The Holy Spirit begets a human spirit. (Jn.3:6) It is very simple to understand.

The problem Civic, is you seem to think that all those believers in the OT were dead to God as they spoke His words and lived in relationship with Him but Jesus made it quite clear to Nicodemus if you want to be in that relationship, to know Him and to be a part of the Kingdom, you must be born again. Every OT believer was born again. It is the barest minimum one needs for salvation.

How you cannot see what John 3:6 is saying beats me. I can only repeat what Jesus said to Nicodemus. You consider yourself a teacher of the word yet do not understand what is this most basic necessity?

 

[GeneZ]

You would understand though, that all mercy is dealt to us by the Work of the Cross?

God cannot by any means just ignore sin, the breaking of his Law?

So in that sense "the Law of the Lord endures forever."

With the penalty of sin having been dealt with on the Cross?

A law of sin remains as follows.

God can not become one with sin.
If you sin? He can not be in fellowship with you.
That is why He gave us 1 John 1:9 to know for when we sin.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins ​

and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9​

For when we get cut off of the filling of the Spirit when we sin?
God can not continue to lead and guide us into all truth until that sin is dealt with as God would have it.

 

[sawdust]

Titus 3:5-8
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

above we see the new birth (regeneration) and eternal life connected as synonyms.

You see it that way. Two things are happening. Regeneration AND Renewal. Together (by God's grace) they place us (the Church) in a unique position whereby God grants us eternal life, His unique life which is to be found in Christ.

Stop trying to justify your position and start thinking through what the scriptures are saying. Jesus expected Nicodemus to know what being born again was based on OT scriptures ONLY.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

hope this helps!!!!!!!!

 

[Diserner]

Jesus expected Nicodemus to know what being born again

He did?

I think he expected Nicodemus to ask.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus proclaimed a person's sins forgiven before the Cross took place. Luke 7:48

Because He knew the Cross was already completed in God's eyes.

God knew the Cross was completed before this world was ever formed.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

How in the world can make such an argument relative to the time described in Luke 7???????????

 

[praise_yeshua]

He did?

I think he expected Nicodemus to ask.

Here is where I agree with sawdust. To me, the narrative establishes the fact that Christ was "chiding" Nicodemus for something he should have known.

It is possible that Jesus expected him to both know and ask. Not either or. I can't rationally remove the expectation of "should have known".....

In all of this, I don't know what any of this does to create a separation relative to this thread?

Can someone explain?

 

[sawdust]

He did?

I think he expected Nicodemus to ask.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

If you think that is an expectation of wanting someone to ask? "Houston we have a problem."

 

[GeneZ]

God knew the Cross was completed before this world was ever formed.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

How in the world can make such an argument relative to the time described in Luke 7???????????

Mind rephrasing your last sentence, please? What argument? With whom?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Mind rephrasing your last sentence, please? What argument? With whom?

So you accept the fact that God knew such before Luke 7? Maybe I should have asked just the question.