Did God ( Christ ) die ?

[synergy]

You're adding the NT times. Where does the Scripture reference this exclusively to NT times? Please do tell.

I'm not a CARM Calvinist. I'm accustomed to dealing with hyper Dispensationalist at CARM and many other places. I don't form my theology based upon a reaction to try and disprove a particular theology. I base it upon the truth alone.

It is the Spirit of God whereby we cry "ABBA FATHER". That is why no man can have a relationship with God without the Spirit of God.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Abraham was a son of God. So was Job. I didn't get this from a Calvinist. I got it from the Scriptures.

I don't want this to get into a thousand line long response. I'm going to split this up into multiple posts.

What is the context of this verse? Spiritual Gifts. See 1 Cor 12:1.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Cor 12:3 continues within that context and speaks specifically of one speaking by the Spirit of God, speaking in tongues in other words:

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

In fact, Chapters 12–14 deal with the issue of spiritual gifts, and ultimately, the gift of speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14), and 1 Cor 12:1-3 serves as an opening statement of what issue the Corinthian Christians were facing. They were seeing people speaking in tongues and Paul was telling them that only those who say "Jesus is Lord" are speaking by the Holy Spirit. Those who were saying "Jesus is a curse" were not speaking by the Holy Spirit. So next time you see someone speaking in tongues, you can know if he's speaking by the Holy Spirit.

I'll be more than happy to continue our conversation of 1Cor 12:3 if you stay within its context.

 

[praise_yeshua]

John 14:17 mentions that there is a difference as to how the Holy Spirit was with believers before Pentecost as opposed to being in believers after Pentecost. Why the difference? The Cross. The Cross had to first eliminate the sin barrier between man and God before regeneration could occur.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No. It does not. In fact, Jesus very clearly says that the Spirit in Christ was with them at the very moment. Up till this point, I believe you've been ignoring my comments on the Spirit being bound to the earthly ministry of Jesus at His Baptism. That is why Jesus told his disciples it was imperative that he go away.

The Disciples were clean through the words of Christ. Christ dwelt with the disciples His entire ministry.

David described the Spirit of God dwelling with him

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

If the Spirit of God were to abandon anyone........ it would have been a murderer like David. Not casting stones at David. We all are sinful creatures by choice. Most everyone of us can't claim innocence anymore.

That's why Pentecost was such a stupendous event. If people were being regenerated before Pentecost then Pentecost would have been just another day at the office.

God has always been STUPENDOUS. Every interaction with God is STUPENDOUS.

Pentecost didn't prevent Peter from sinning in rejecting Gentiles for close to decade. Pentecost didn't prevent the early church from sinning "backbiting" and "hating on one another".

Don't get me wrong. I'm not discounting Pentecost. It brought power to sinful man but it wasn't what you're making it out to be.

It is why I've repeatedly said that Salvation is still not complete.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What is the context of this verse? Spiritual Gifts. See 1 Cor 12:1.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Cor 12:3 continues within that context and speaks specifically of one speaking by the Spirit of God, speaking in tongues in other words:

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

In fact, Chapters 12–14 deal with the issue of spiritual gifts, and ultimately, the gift of speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14), and 1 Cor 12:1-3 serves as an opening statement of what issue the Corinthian Christians were facing. They were seeing people speaking in tongues and Paul was telling them that only those who say "Jesus is Lord" are speaking by the Holy Spirit. Those who were saying "Jesus is a curse" were not speaking by the Holy Spirit. So next time you see someone speaking in tongues, you can know if he's speaking by the Holy Spirit.

I'll be more than happy to continue our conversation of 1Cor 12:3 if you stay within its context.

I am staying within its context. It is not a island unto itself. It is part of how the Spirit operates.....

What did Jesus mean when he said "Destroy this temple and in 3 days I'll build again"......

There are connections beyond just the immediate context. I referenced Gal 4:6 because it is applicable. Even gifted with the Spirit of God, there are rules relative to the application of the Spirit. When practicing "spiritual things"... no one is going to call Christ "accursed". No one is going to magnify Christ as Lord without the Spirit of God.

This does not exclude someone simply from repeating what someone else states in saying "Christ is Lord". The Spirit of God has always brought power. Before the advent of Christ, Jews had abandoned God. Just like previous generations. Hardly any of them had the Spirit of God". They had become so apostate that God's Spirit was not among them anymore.

It is not that it had never happened before. Gifts like "tongues" were not needed until after God confused man's language.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

New?

Disciples....
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Abraham.....

2Ch 20:7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

 

[GeneZ]

I explained this to you in posts 228-229. Jesus sure did mention it. and promised it.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/did-god-christ-die.197/page-12#post-52066

But I explained in other posts too.

So.. go find them and see what I refuse to tell you now here.

All you did in those posts was to cite Scripture.. no thinking involved.

And, then presumption with pom poms to follow from a cheerleader of yours.

Its a clique.

You are confusing the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which began at Pentecost for what Jesus told Nicodemus he needed before Pentecost.
You are never going to understand the deep spirituality of David, Moses, Isaiah as being born again until it clicks.

Born again = regeneration.
Pentecost = becoming a New Creation in Christ!

Big difference!

 

[GeneZ]

So if we're going to call people childish and not mature adults what hope do you think you can have at convincing anybody anything? Consider that maybe food for thought?

I don't have that illusion..
I am not going to convince some no matter what I say ..

Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children (childish).​

In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. ​

1 Cor 14:20​

First of all.. Some here think they have no sin nature, when the Bible teaches it will remain as a potential till we physically die. .
That thinking breeds self righteousness ...

You can not convince the self righteous of what they are certain is true.
They are sure that their error is perfect and right.
And, have a slew of verses to use (misapplications) to show you how sure they are.

Just one person coming here who feels bullied by the "group think" may find what I have to say as being helpful.

That it is not beyond hope.

 

[civic]

But I explained in other posts too.

So.. go find them and see what I refuse to tell you now here.

All you did in those posts was to cite Scripture.. no thinking involved.

And, then presumption with pom poms to follow from a cheerleader of yours.

Its a clique.

You are confusing the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which began at Pentecost for what Jesus told Nicodemus he needed before Pentecost.
You are never going to understand the deep spirituality of David, Moses, Isaiah as being born again until it clicks.

Born again = regeneration.
Pentecost = becoming a New Creation in Christ!

Big difference!

I refuted you position with scripture and the biblical interpretation of those passages. All you did was once again make personal attacks ( ad hominems ).

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't have that illusion..
I am not going to convince some no matter what I say ..

Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children (childish).​

In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. ​

1 Cor 14:20​

First of all.. Some here think they have no sin nature, when the Bible teaches it will remain as a potential till we physically die. .
That thinking breeds self righteousness ...

You can not convince the self righteous of what they are certain is true.
They are sure that their error is perfect and right.
And, have a slew of verses to use (misapplications) to show you how sure they are.

Just one person coming here who feels bullied by the "group think" may find what I have to say as being helpful.

That it is not beyond hope.

Geesh.... Claiming Christ was separated from God for depraved individuals does "WHAT" to "self righteousness"?????

At every level, your view is self centered. Not Christ centered.

Here is the sum of your position......

1. You are "depraved and have a sin nature"... BUT no worries. Christ experienced separation from God for YOU.
2. If you're not depraved and have a sin nature" then there is no hope for you.....

What a load of malarkey. You're the biggest self centered theologian around here. Does being "self centered" equal = bulling?

 

[civic]

Geesh.... Claiming Christ was separated from God for depraved individuals does "WHAT" to "self righteousness"?????

At every level, your view is self centered. Not Christ centered.

Here is the sum of your position......

1. You are "depraved and have a sin nature"... BUT no worries. Christ experienced separation from God for YOU.
2. If you're not depraved and have a sin nature" then there is no hope for you.....

What a load of malarkey. You're the biggest self centered theologian around here. Does being "self centered" equal = bulling?

Yes it’s piling on false teaching upon false teaching. Get God wrong and it all keeps piling on heresy upon heresy.

 

[Rockson]

First of all.. Some here think they have no sin nature, when the Bible teaches it will remain as a potential till we physically die. .
That thinking breeds self righteousness ...

O come on now. You have to know you're overplaying your hand by saying that. I think EVERYBODY knows here they have the potential to sin and that they need Christ living his life through them to overcome sin. If you're going to argue mankind has a sin nature at birth fine....make your case for that but don't add on these extreme charges they're into being self righteous.

You can not convince the self righteous of what they are certain is true.

Again something I think you need to dial back when referring to the people here.

That it is not beyond hope.

I'd truly like to believe you're not beyond hope of seeing you might need to dial back some of your charges. At least consider it.

 

[GeneZ]

I refuted you position with scripture and the biblical interpretation of those passages. All you did was once again make personal attacks ( ad hominems ).

No... I refuted your position. Its in my posts!

(I can play your game too)

But, I'm an adult and find it distasteful, because its disrespectful of my Lord.

 

[GeneZ]

O come on now. You have to know you're overplaying your hand by saying that. I think EVERYBODY knows here they have the potential to sin and that they need Christ living his life through them to overcome sin. If you're going to argue mankind has a sin nature at birth fine....make your case for that but don't add on these extreme charges they're into being self righteous.

Like someone here would say...

You need to go to posts # and # and see what they claimed.
They claimed we have not inherited the sin nature from Adam.

Hard to believe. Isn't it?

And, that's what I find myself dealing with....

 

[GeneZ]

not worth the fonts...

 

[civic]

No... I refuted your position. Its in my posts!

(I can play your game too)

But, I'm an adult and find it distasteful, because its disrespectful of my Lord.

Likewise it insults my Great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) who is the Only Sovereign and Lord(Jude 1:4) who is the Lord God Almighty( Rev 1:8) the First and the Last the Alpha and Omega( Rev 1,22). The only name by which man can be saved(Acts4:12) the only Lord , the One Lord( 1 Cor8:6, Rom 10:9-13).

hope this helps!!!

 

[GeneZ]

Likewise it insults my Great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) who is the Only Sovereign and Lord(Jude 1:4) who is the Lord God Almighty( Rev 1:8) the First and the Last the Alpha and Omega( Rev 1,22). The only name by which man can be saved(Acts4:12) the only Lord , the One Lord( 1 Cor8:6, Rom 10:9-13).

hope this helps!!!

Helps in what way?

 

[civic]

Helps in what way?

Discerning truth from error for those with eyes to see, ears to hear, the Spirit to enlighten the mind.

hope this helps !!!

 

[GeneZ]

Discerning truth from error for those with eyes to see, ears to hear, the Spirit to enlighten the mind.

hope this helps !!!

I see... thanx!

hope that helps !!!

 

[sawdust]

it does not seem that anyone was regenerated until the day of pentecost, Jesus had said the spirit could not come until He, Jesus left.

Regeneration is having a human spirit generated, not the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is not generating Himself. Papa does not give birth to papa.

Just as flesh begets flesh, so too does the Spirit beget spirit. The comparison ought to be obvious yet it constantly amazes me how so few see it.

When people think regeneration is the giving of the Holy Spirit? That is why they cannot see regeneration in the OT. They weren't given the Holy Spirit in the OT. Some (like the prophets) were anointed but no-one was indwelt and sealed by the Spirit. No-one was baptized until Pentecost. The baptism of the Spirit is far more than being born again.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

OT saints knew of salvation because they could see the Kingdom of God and believed ergo, if they could see, it follows they were born again.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[GeneZ]

Regeneration is having a human spirit generated, not the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is not generating Himself. Papa does not give birth to papa.

Just as flesh begets flesh, so too does the Spirit beget spirit. The comparison ought to be obvious yet it constantly amazes me how so few see it.

When people think regeneration is the giving of the Holy Spirit? That is why they cannot see regeneration in the OT. They weren't given the Holy Spirit in the OT. Some (like the prophets) were anointed but no-one was indwelt and sealed by the Spirit. No-one was baptized until Pentecost. The baptism of the Spirit is far more than being born again.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

OT saints knew of salvation because they could see the Kingdom of God and believed ergo, if they could see, it follows they were born again.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Don't let them frustrate you.
What you said is truthful and understandable....

 

[sethproton]

Regeneration is having a human spirit generated, not the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is not generating Himself. Papa does not give birth to papa.

Just as flesh begets flesh, so too does the Spirit beget spirit. The comparison ought to be obvious yet it constantly amazes me how so few see it.

When people think regeneration is the giving of the Holy Spirit? That is why they cannot see regeneration in the OT. They weren't given the Holy Spirit in the OT. Some (like the prophets) were anointed but no-one was indwelt and sealed by the Spirit. No-one was baptized until Pentecost. The baptism of the Spirit is far more than being born again.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

OT saints knew of salvation because they could see the Kingdom of God and believed ergo, if they could see, it follows they were born again.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

In John 3:3, "See" the kingdom means experience it. You have to be born again to enter the kingdom and experience it.