Did God ( Christ ) die ?

[synergy]

Job called Christ my Redeemer. Enoch called Christ Lord as referenced by Jude and his own work (book of Enoch) from which Jude took it.

In Jude it is written that Enoch prophesied about the Lord. I don't see any mention of any OT Saint being regenerated during OT times.

Many OT Saints possessed great faith that would shame what little faith modern man has. There's no doubt about that.

1st Corinthians 12:3

(1 Cor 12:13) For also by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit.

This verse is talking about NT times. Do you have any verse speaking about OT Saints being regenerated in OT times?

 

[sethproton]

In Jude it is written that Enoch prophesied about the Lord. I don't see any mention of any OT Saint being regenerated during OT times.

Many OT Saints possessed great faith that would shame what little faith modern man has. There's no doubt about that.

(1 Cor 12:13) For also by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit.

This verse is talking about NT times. Do you have any verse speaking about OT Saints being regenerated in OT times?

it does not seem that anyone was regenerated until the day of pentecost, Jesus had said the spirit could not come until He, Jesus left.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In Jude it is written that Enoch prophesied about the Lord. I don't see any mention of any OT Saint being regenerated during OT times.

Many OT Saints possessed great faith that would shame what little faith modern man has. There's no doubt about that.

(1 Cor 12:13) For also by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit.

This verse is talking about NT times. Do you have any verse speaking about OT Saints being regenerated in OT times?

I didn't reference 1 Corinthians 12:13. I referenced vs 3.
Faith can not increase in spiritual things without the new birth. Faith is not perfected without the new birth and the works associated with the new birth.

Prophecy or not, Enoch called Christ Lord. Just how does the fact it was a prophecy of a still yet future event discount the reality of calling Christ Lord? Wouldn't it discount you calling Christ Lord as not being relative to the new birth? Has Christ returned with ten thousands of His saints?

Are you rejecting Job's appeal to our Redeemer?

Just what is the circumcision of the heart? Abraham found it. Just where is that mentioned in the OT? Maybe Jeremiah? The foreskins of the heart? What is a seed if not round. The round cut of circumcision of the foreskin with life bursting forth in death. The seed of life from above. The very seed of Eternal Life. Adam didn't have it from the beginning. Yet it was promised before the world began. Circumcised the eighth day. Why not the first day? The eighth day. A new begining. First day of the rest of our lives

Consider. The apostasy that caused the flood caused many things to be abandoned and forgotten by man. Not soon after the flood the offspring of those "eight righteous" souls began to abandon God again. Man lived for hundreds of years before the flood. The faithful spreading the promises of God till only a few remained. Enoch knew Adam personally. Adam lived into the Seventh generation. That is why Jude mentions that Enoch was the "seventh" from Adam. Remember that Moses only got a few details from God for Genesis. Only a few. Just where in the OT do we find that Abraham believed that God would raise his son from the dead?

 

[GeneZ]

Gosh Gene your story is starting to sound like Moses delivering people from Egypt! So what spiritual credentials are you bringing to the table to do this? I mean what type of impact and powerful ministry have you had on the world? Your claims come across as pretty lofty in nature.

I am just a regular guy..... Who gets misunderstood around here quite often...

Its not too difficult .....

 

[praise_yeshua]

it does not seem that anyone was regenerated until the day of pentecost, Jesus had said the spirit could not come until He, Jesus left.

That is because the Spirit was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Remember the baptism of Jesus seth? Whag happened. Jesus told the truth. The Spirit couldn't come to the disciples until He left this earth. That doesn't mean the Spirit want here before birthing people into the family of God.

 

[sethproton]

That is because the Spirit was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Remember the baptism of Jesus seth? Whag happened. Jesus told the truth. The Spirit couldn't come to the disciples until He left this earth. That doesn't mean the Spirit want here before birthing people into the family of God.

i was talking spefically about the Spirit as the regenerator. He could not do that until Jesus ascended.

 

[GeneZ]

it does not seem that anyone was regenerated until the day of pentecost, Jesus had said the spirit could not come until He, Jesus left.

John 3:5-6
New King James Version

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which
is born of the Spirit is spirit. "



What was regeneration according to John 3:5-6?

Jesus never mentions having the indwelling Holy Spirit being given.
But, he did speak of the Spirit begetting "spirit."

Its not that difficult.

 

[praise_yeshua]

i was talking spefically about the Spirit as the regenerator. He could not do that until Jesus ascended.

I know you were. Everyone does. You were taught that. They were wrong.

The reference is simply about the Spirit of God returning after the ministry of Jesus Christ was complete following Jesus's baptism and ascension.

No need to listen to others.

 

[GeneZ]

i was talking spefically about the Spirit as the regenerator. He could not do that until Jesus ascended.

The Spirit could not be given to live inside believers until after He ascended and was glorified.

Yet, Peter was able to know Jesus was the Christ before Jesus went to the Cross.
Peter was OT regeneration Jewish.

Do you believe David did not have a human spirit? No regeneration?

 

[GeneZ]

Regeneration made a spiritually dead person who is only body and soul, into becoming body, soul, and human spirit.
Its the human spirit that is the indication of regeneration.

Pentecost brought in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
That was when believers were baptized into one body.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Spirit could not be given to live inside believers until after He ascended and was glorified.

Yet, Peter was able to know Jesus was the Christ before Jesus went to the Cross.
Peter was OT regeneration Jewish.

Do you believe David did not have a human spirit? No regeneration?

God forgave sin before Calvary. God forgot sin before Calvary. Why is the idea the Spirit of God couldn't live inside believers before Calvary such am unbelievable thing?

 

[sethproton]

John 3:5-6
New King James Version

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which
is born of the Spirit is spirit. "



What was regeneration according to John 3:5-6?

Jesus never mentions having the indwelling Holy Spirit being given.
But, he did speak of the Spirit begetting "spirit."

Its not that difficult.

Verses teaching the Spirit was given to us. Acts 5:32, Rom 3:5, 1 Cor 12:7, I JOhn 3:24, 1 John4:13

 

[praise_yeshua]

Regeneration made a spiritually dead person who is only body and soul, into becoming body, soul, and human spirit.
Its the human spirit that is the indication of regeneration.

Pentecost brought in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
That was when believers were baptized into one body.

So the new birth is a human spirit?

So much for being born from above.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

It really is simple. New birth =

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Eternal life. New birth. All those of all ages/times. Not just hearing at a funeral...

 

[GeneZ]

Verses teaching the Spirit was given to us. Acts 5:32, Rom 3:5, 1 Cor 12:7, I JOhn 3:24, 1 John4:13

When did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he needed to be born again?
He was told well before Pentecost ever took place...

Jesus did not tell Nicodemus that *he will in the future* need to be born again.
But, needed *then* to be born again.

Moses was born again.
Pharaoh was not.

 

[GeneZ]

Verses teaching the Spirit was given to us. Acts 5:32, Rom 3:5, 1 Cor 12:7, I JOhn 3:24, 1 John4:13

But the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as our human spirit.

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children."

Romans 8:16
​

Once its clarified then things can then begin to fall into place....

 

[synergy]

I didn't reference 1 Corinthians 12:13. I referenced vs 3.
Faith can not increase in spiritual things without the new birth. Faith is not perfected without the new birth and the works associated with the new birth.

Prophecy or not, Enoch called Christ Lord. Just how does the fact it was a prophecy of a still yet future event discount the reality of calling Christ Lord? Wouldn't it discount you calling Christ Lord as not being relative to the new birth? Has Christ returned with ten thousands of His saints?

Are you rejecting Job's appeal to our Redeemer?

Just what is the circumcision of the heart? Abraham found it. Just where is that mentioned in the OT? Maybe Jeremiah? The foreskins of the heart? What is a seed if not round. The round cut of circumcision of the foreskin with life bursting forth in death. The seed of life from above. The very seed of Eternal Life. Adam didn't have it from the beginning. Yet it was promised before the world began. Circumcised the eighth day. Why not the first day? The eighth day. A new begining. First day of the rest of our lives

Consider. The apostasy that caused the flood caused many things to be abandoned and forgotten by man. Not soon after the flood the offspring of those "eight righteous" souls began to abandon God again. Man lived for hundreds of years before the flood. The faithful spreading the promises of God till only a few remained. Enoch knew Adam personally. Adam lived into the Seventh generation. That is why Jude mentions that Enoch was the "seventh" from Adam. Remember that Moses only got a few details from God for Genesis. Only a few. Just where in the OT do we find that Abraham believed that God would raise his son from the dead?

Sorry, I quoted the wrong verse. Actually, 1 Cor 12:3 speaks even less about OT regeneration than the passage I quoted. Verse 3 is talking about gifts and specifically about speaking in tongues. Nobody speaking in tongues, in NT times, can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Calvinists at CARM would quote that verse ad nauseum and I would tell them that I'll remember that verse if ever I attend their Pentecostal Churches.

(1 Cor 12:3) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I'm not rejecting anything about Job in the Bible. Just show me which exact verse explicitly demonstrates that Job was regenerated.

John 14:17 mentions that there is a difference as to how the Holy Spirit was with believers before Pentecost as opposed to being in believers after Pentecost. Why the difference? The Cross. The Cross had to first eliminate the sin barrier between man and God before regeneration could occur.

(John 14:17) the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

That's why Pentecost was such a stupendous event. If people were being regenerated before Pentecost then Pentecost would have been just another day at the office.

 

[civic]

John 3:5-6
New King James Version

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which
is born of the Spirit is spirit. "



What was regeneration according to John 3:5-6?

Jesus never mentions having the indwelling Holy Spirit being given.
But, he did speak of the Spirit begetting "spirit."

Its not that difficult.

I explained this to you in posts 228-229. Jesus sure did mention it. and promised it.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/did-god-christ-die.197/page-12#post-52066

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sorry, I quoted the wrong verse. Actually, 1 Cor 12:3 speaks even less about OT regeneration than the passage I quoted. Verse 3 is talking about gifts and specifically about speaking in tongues. Nobody speaking in tongues, in NT times, can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

You're adding the NT times. Where does the Scripture reference this exclusively to NT times? Please do tell.

Calvinists at CARM would quote that verse ad nauseum and I would tell them that I'll remember that verse if ever I attend their Pentecostal Churches.

I'm not a CARM Calvinist. I'm accustomed to dealing with hyper Dispensationalist at CARM and many other places. I don't form my theology based upon a reaction to try and disprove a particular theology. I base it upon the truth alone.

It is the Spirit of God whereby we cry "ABBA FATHER". That is why no man can have a relationship with God without the Spirit of God.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Abraham was a son of God. So was Job. I didn't get this from a Calvinist. I got it from the Scriptures.

I don't want this to get into a thousand line long response. I'm going to split this up into multiple posts.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not rejecting anything about Job in the Bible. Just show me which exact verse explicitly demonstrates that Job was regenerated.

I disagree. You are rejecting the clear language of the Scriptures. Job called Christ Redeemer. Tell me what the difference between what Job did and what any current saint of God does?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.