Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[Studyman]

I believe as Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Actually, he didn't say that Civic. I have heard this teaching before, but when a man reads what is actually written, Paul isn't saying to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. Please consider what he actually said.

2 cor. 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Who doesn't want an immortal body and no more pain with the Lord? I too, am willing, rather to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. But as of this minute, my time to die has not yet come. I'm still in the land of the living, therefore, I Labor so as to be accepted by Him. And the Last Trump has not yet sounded. And the dead have not yet been raised "Incorruptible" and put on "eternal life". So I have Hope. The dead have no hope.

I'm not sure how these words of Paul contradict the Scriptures I posted, or my understanding of them. But thanks for posting them.

Like both Jesus and Stephen said with their last breath was "into Your hands I commit my spirit".

Yes, just as it is written in the Law and Prophets.

Ecc. 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I believe the body dies and is buried and the soul/spirit goes to be with the Lord as we await the Resurrection.

Yes, for all men this is the case. The spirit of a dead man can neither speak, nor praise God, nor does it even know it's dead, because in death, the spirit knows nothing, until the Christ comes back and awakens it. At which time it is either rewarded with eternal life in paradise, or destroyed forever will eternal destruction. But between death and the resurrection, there is nothing.

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

I have always found it fascinating that men who promote the religious philosophy of being born with eternal life, believe God's Inspired Word regarding the spirit He gave returning to Him, but they don't believe the Same Word, inspired by the same God, that tells us the capacity of the same spirit of those who are dead.

This is the power of this world's ancient religious traditions, and why, in my view, Jesus and Paul warned to "Take heed" and "Beware" of them.

In Revelation we see the souls who were killed with the Lord asking how long will it be until you avenge us. Rev 6:9

hope this helps !!!

I'm not sure how a prophetic vision which tells us Death is riding a Pale horse, makes void Paul's words, or the teaching of the Law and Prophets regarding death.

Certainly, the popular religious philosophy that the resurrection has already happened is nothing new. But it seems that according to Scriptures, when Jesus comes back to raise the dead, everyone will know it. Even me.

 

[Rockson]

Actually, he didn't say that Civic. I have heard this teaching before, but when a man reads what is actually written, Paul isn't saying to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. Please consider what he actually said.

2 cor. 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Who doesn't want an immortal body and no more pain with the Lord? I too, am willing, rather to be absent from the body and be present with the Lord.

Sorry but I don't think that makes sense what I think you're trying to say. It seems you can correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you're suggesting to be absent from the body isn't really to be present with the Lord but Paul would be willing to have it way if it was that way. That doesn't even make good grammar sense when one puts together words.

But as of this minute, my time to die has not yet come. I'm still in the land of the living, therefore, I Labor so as to be accepted by Him.

And that should provide great motivation to all saints to think that way. We labor so we can be accepted by him. There can be nothing more sad and scarier to find out that we aren't.

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The key words here I believe you missed is the last statement...."any thing that is done under the sun" They don't know anything of natural things under the physical sun and why? Because they are in a different realm.

 

[Rockson]

I'm not sure how a prophetic vision which tells us Death is riding a Pale horse, makes void Paul's words, or the teaching of the Law and Prophets regarding death.

So this was in response to the other poster saying this: In Revelation we see the souls who were killed with the Lord asking how long will it be until you avenge us. Rev 6:9

So you're trying to assert what....that the book of Revelation 6: 9 is what....some type of poetry? Some type of parable that when it's recorded very words were spoken in Heaven....that they really weren't? (to support your soul sleep doctrine) So what about in the same basic passage where it's recorded the ungodly will say certain words too....."Hide us from the face of them that sit on the throne!" Rev 6:16

They won't take place either? It's all just something made up? And what about in the very next chapter really just verses away where he hears words that an angel says to others don't pour out things upon the earth until.......Rev 7:2 so that won't happen either? Seems to me you're way out of line with your suggestions to try to make soul sleep sound true. Yes there was a metaphor used about death riding on a Pale horse Rev 6:9 but certainly no justification for not understanding when the metaphoric language ended. Your claim has NOTHING happening in any real sense of statements the Bible says are going to be made. Sorry Studyman....can't buy it.

 

[Studyman]

Sorry but I don't think that makes sense what I think you're trying to say. It seems you can correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you're suggesting to be absent from the body isn't really to be present with the Lord but Paul would be willing to have it way if it was that way. That doesn't even make good grammar sense when one puts together words.

"but Paul would be willing to have it way if it was that way. That doesn't even make good grammar sense"

I agree that this statement doesn't make good grammar sense. Why not just post a sentence that makes good grammar sense? Not sure what your point is.

As for my point, I simply posted what Paul said. He didn't say, "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord". Jesus Himself said, regarding the time "After those days" when men speak with Christ face to face, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So not only did Paul not say, what is commonly attributed to Him, but His Lord and Master didn't teach this either. Now for those who are "ACCEPTED" by God, yes, to be absent from this body, would mean we would, upon being resurrected, be present with the Lord.

And that should provide great motivation to all saints to think that way. We labor so we can be accepted by him. There can be nothing more sad and scarier to find out that we aren't.

Yes, I agree. So then, to be absent from the Body doesn't automatically place us in the presence of the Lord. But that is the implication in the popular religious statement, "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord". And is the reason why I posted the actual words of Paul in the Scriptures, to show that Paul didn't say that. How awful if people believed something about God that wasn't true. This is, in my view, we are told to take heed and beware of this world's religious philosophies, especially those from "many" who come in Christ's Name.

The key words here I believe you missed is the last statement...."any thing that is done under the sun" They don't know anything of natural things under the physical sun and why? Because they are in a different realm.

I didn't miss that. I agree with you regarding the different realm though. You and I, we are living beings. We know things, we can worship, sin, love, hate. David is dead. He is not among the living. He knows nothing, not even that he is dead, and will continue to know nothing until God Raises him from the dead. At least this is what the Inspired Word of God teaches.

I get how important this whole "humans are immortal" philosophy is to this world's religions. Death is huge money, and this world's religious businesses create massive wealth for themselves and the merchants of the world, over the popular religious philosophy that men go straight to hell or heaven immediately upon death. Actually, I have yet to hear any preacher send someone to hell, they are always sent to heaven, and folks pay big money for it. I've heard figures of a $20 billion dollar a year industry in this country alone. So I know something like Scriptures is not going to have any real influence on this huge cash cow.

But for me, I don't care about the death industry, or the popular religious philosophies which promotes it. I am interested in Biblical Truth. And according to the Holy Scriptures, eternal life is a gift granted to those who are "ACCEPTED" by God, not to those who are not.

So this was in response to the other poster saying this: In Revelation we see the souls who were killed with the Lord asking how long will it be until you avenge us. Rev 6:9

So you're trying to assert what....that the book of Revelation 6: 9 is what....some type of poetry? Some type of parable that when it's recorded very words were spoken in Heaven....that they really weren't? (to support your soul sleep doctrine) So what about in the same basic passage where it's recorded the ungodly will say certain words too....."Hide us from the face of them that sit on the throne!" Rev 6:16

I thought I was pretty clear in my reply. If you are waiting for a Pale Horse with death riding on it, you will have a long wait. This is because these words are symbolic. If you can't understand or accept these simple Biblical Truths, then there is really no reason to try and have an honest discussion about Scriptures with you.

They won't take place either? It's all just something made up?

I never said or even implied such a thing. I'm only pointing out the obvious, that this teaching is filled with symbolism. Death will not literally ride a horse, which is pale in color. But in your attempt to preserve popular religious tradition, that men are born immortal, and that they go to hell or heaven immediately upon death, you take this vision, separate it from the rest of the Bible, and are using it to prop up a popular religious doctrine that if all scriptures were considered, could not stand.

And what about in the very next chapter really just verses away where he hears words that an angel says to others don't pour out things upon the earth until.......Rev 7:2 so that won't happen either?

What I said was, this vision doesn't make void the Holy Scriptures, the Words of Jesus in the Gospels, Paul's words, etc. And that this vision is filled with symbolism, as are most visions in Scriptures.

These things are undeniably true.

Seems to me you're way out of line with your suggestions to try to make soul sleep sound true. Yes there was a metaphor used about death riding on a Pale horse Rev 6:9 but certainly no justification for not understanding when the metaphoric language ended. Your claim has NOTHING happening in any real sense of statements the Bible says are going to be made. Sorry Studyman....can't buy it.

So wait a minute here. LOL, you are saying I'm way out of line here for suggesting a prophetic vision which includes death riding on a Pale horse is symbolic, but you yourself states that it is symbolic? Calm down a minute here. What I am saying, is that this symbolic vision, should not be taken literally for the purpose of destroying or making false or void, the Words of the Law and Prophets, the Words of Jesus or His apostles, including Paul, concerning death and immortality. Even if those words contradict a popular religious philosophy, that you may have adopted.

You are free to do so of course, if you wish.

 

[makesends]

I believe as Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Like both Jesus and Stephen said with their last breath was "into Your hands I commit my spirit". I believe the body dies and is buried and the soul/spirit goes to be with the Lord as we await the Resurrection. In Revelation we see the souls who were killed with the Lord asking how long will it be until you avenge us. Rev 6:9

hope this helps !!!

I agree. And Ecclesiastes was written as a large parenthesis within a larger point —verses sounding as though there is no life after death are not standalone doctrinal statements, but representative of a mind looking at this life for its own sake. Vanity. Uselessness. Frustration.

 

[Studyman]

I agree. And Ecclesiastes was written as a large parenthesis within a larger point —verses sounding as though there is no life after death are not standalone doctrinal statements, but representative of a mind looking at this life for its own sake. Vanity. Uselessness. Frustration.

Ecclesiastes is saying nothing different than David and Isaiah, so I wasn't using one verse as a stand-alone verse. And where is it found in the Holy scriptures that when we die, our spirit returns to the God who gave it? Is that also not found in Ecclesiastes? Have men then not taken one verse in Ecclesiastes and used it to promote the religious philosophy that God gives the gift of immortality to everyone, and not just those whose names are written in the Book of Life?


Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Ps. 88: 10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Ps. 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

None of these Scriptures are teaching there is no life "after death". That isn't the point or even the topic. Of course, there is "life after death". But this is only because men are "Raised from the dead". And this world's religious philosophy that we are alive, conscious, praising God, before this resurrection, is popular, but according to Scriptures, is not true. And all this to promote the religious myth that all men are born immortal. Or as it was first spoken "Thou shall surly not die".

What I have done, is simply point out what the Scriptures teach, when they are all taken into consideration. We have this life to get right with God, when we die, that is it. We know nothing more until God raises us from the dead. And we are either glorified with the gift of immortality, or we are destroyed, both body and Soul.

For me, since I don't care about this world's religious traditions, I don't have the desire to reject or refuse to believe what is written, to preserve them.

And it seems prudent to share this understanding and the Scriptures which bring it, with others for examination and discussion, even though I know many will not accept them.

 

[makesends]

Ecclesiastes is saying nothing different than David and Isaiah, so I wasn't using one verse as a stand-alone verse. And where is it found in the Holy scriptures that when we die, our spirit returns to the God who gave it? Is that also not found in Ecclesiastes? Have men then not taken one verse in Ecclesiastes and used it to promote the religious philosophy that God gives the gift of immortality to everyone, and not just those whose names are written in the Book of Life?


Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Ps. 88: 10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Ps. 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

None of these Scriptures are teaching there is no life "after death". That isn't the point or even the topic. Of course, there is "life after death". But this is only because men are "Raised from the dead". And this world's religious philosophy that we are alive, conscious, praising God, before this resurrection, is popular, but according to Scriptures, is not true. And all this to promote the religious myth that all men are born immortal. Or as it was first spoken "Thou shall surly not die".

What I have done, is simply point out what the Scriptures teach, when they are all taken into consideration. We have this life to get right with God, when we die, that is it. We know nothing more until God raises us from the dead. And we are either glorified with the gift of immortality, or we are destroyed, both body and Soul.

For me, since I don't care about this world's religious traditions, I don't have the desire to reject or refuse to believe what is written, to preserve them.

And it seems prudent to share this understanding and the Scriptures which bring it, with others for examination and discussion, even though I know many will not accept them.

You sound here like I took you wrong. Ok. Hope you continue to track the same trajectory. But what is this religious philosophy that all men are born immortal? Who says that, or more to the point, what do they mean when they say that?

 

[civic]

Ecclesiastes is saying nothing different than David and Isaiah, so I wasn't using one verse as a stand-alone verse. And where is it found in the Holy scriptures that when we die, our spirit returns to the God who gave it? Is that also not found in Ecclesiastes? Have men then not taken one verse in Ecclesiastes and used it to promote the religious philosophy that God gives the gift of immortality to everyone, and not just those whose names are written in the Book of Life?


Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Ps. 88: 10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Ps. 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

None of these Scriptures are teaching there is no life "after death". That isn't the point or even the topic. Of course, there is "life after death". But this is only because men are "Raised from the dead". And this world's religious philosophy that we are alive, conscious, praising God, before this resurrection, is popular, but according to Scriptures, is not true. And all this to promote the religious myth that all men are born immortal. Or as it was first spoken "Thou shall surly not die".

What I have done, is simply point out what the Scriptures teach, when they are all taken into consideration. We have this life to get right with God, when we die, that is it. We know nothing more until God raises us from the dead. And we are either glorified with the gift of immortality, or we are destroyed, both body and Soul.

For me, since I don't care about this world's religious traditions, I don't have the desire to reject or refuse to believe what is written, to preserve them.

And it seems prudent to share this understanding and the Scriptures which bring it, with others for examination and discussion, even though I know many will not accept them.

Revelation 6 shows the believers who are martyrs are conscious in heaven before the resurrection takes place. We also have Jesus teaching with Abraham and the rich man who are both conscious and conversing in the afterlife. We also have Moses and Elijah conversing with Jesus , John , Peter and James.


2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

 

[Studyman]

Revelation 6 shows the believers who are martyrs are conscious in heaven before the resurrection takes place.

I am aware of this prophetic vision. A vision in which Death is said to be riding a Pale Horse. A vision that says dead men are crying to God for vengeance. But God gives them a white robe and tells them to go to sleep until everyone is killed. I don't believe this vision should be taken literally for the express purpose of making void the teaching of the Law and Prophets concerning death. Certainly, the Prophetic vision has a meaning. But making the words of the Law and Prophet's void isn't one of them, in my view.

We also have Jesus teaching with Abraham and the rich man who are both conscious and conversing in the afterlife.

Of course, in this Parable the rich man was raised from the dead and was alive and talking, which means Abraham and Lazarus had
been raised from the dead and had been reigning with Christ for a thousand years already. Why didn't the rich man know this? His brothers most certainly were already dead, why didn't the Rich man know this? Can it be because the dead know nothing?

I'm not sure how this Parable makes void or false the teachings of the Law and Prophets concerning death.

We also have Moses and Elijah conversing with Jesus , John , Peter and James.

Yes, in another vision. "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

Why not just bring them down from heaven and have them fellowship all together? Why does access to Moses and Elijah only come from a vision. The answer is simple and is in the Bible. They were dead and buried but will be raised from the dead when Jesus comes back. Can God not give men a vision of the future? Why must men try to use these verses to discredit or make void the teaching of the Law and Prophets? Is it not for the express purpose of promoting and preserving ancient religious tradition?

What other reason is there?

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In my view, I think men do the Spirit of God a great disservice when they only choose to recount small parts of Scripture, for the purpose of preserving an adopted religious tradition.

2 Cor. 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Does this mean that "to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord"? No Civic my friend, Paul is not saying "To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord". Religious men say this, but not Paul. He is saying what I also feel in my heart, that I would rather be absent from this painful fleshy body, AND TO BE present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

But before that can happen, we must be accepted by Him, and not be of those "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, but are told to depart from Him. These men would be absent from the body, but NOT present with the Lord.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Do these verses make Psalms or Isaiah's words, or the teaching in Ecclesiastes void or untrue concerning death? I don't think they do.

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Me too brother. If the Christ doesn't come back before I die, I hope the first thing I see when my eyes open, is not the Lake of Fire. That would mean I missed the first resurrection, when Jesus came back.

1 Cor. 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

In the meantime, before the Christ returns and raises the "Dead in Christ", they remain dead, like David, knowing nothing. There were those in Paul's Time who also promoted the religious philosophy that the resurrection has already taken place. I would hope that my friends wouldn't fall for this ancient religious tradition again.

 

[Studyman]

You sound here like I took you wrong. Ok. Hope you continue to track the same trajectory. But what is this religious philosophy that all men are born immortal? Who says that, or more to the point, what do they mean when they say that?

I was addressing your statement "I agree. And Ecclesiastes was written as a large parenthesis within a larger point —verses sounding as though there is no life after death are not standalone doctrinal statements, but representative of a mind looking at this life for its own sake. Vanity. Uselessness. Frustration."

There is nothing in Ecc. or anywhere in the LAW and Prophets which says, or even implies there is no life after death, in my view. I mentioned this in my reply. It seems clear that men will remain dead, until they are raised from the dead. And the Law and Prophets define what it means to be "Dead". And it isn't praising God in heaven, nor is it floundering in a lake of fire. These happen after a man is raised from the dead and judgment is given. At least according to Scriptures in my view.

But what is this religious philosophy that all men are born immortal? Who says that, or more to the point, what do they mean when they say that?

I have heard "many" who come in Christ's Name, teaching that the spirit men are born with is an immortal spirit. In fact, the very foundation of mainstream Christianity, is that all human spirits are born immortal. Some spend their immortal lives in heaven, and some spend their immortal lives in hell.

In my studies, I don't see this popular religious philosophy taught by Scriptures. Only by this world's religions. The same religions the Bible warns men about from even before the Exodus.

I think it's a great topic for discussion but a difficult one for some. There is a truth regarding this topic. It seems prudent to consider all that is written in scriptures to find it, and try to do so apart from the influence of the many religious businesses and sects of this world God placed us in. Death is a huge business for this world's religions, and the merchants of the earth who benefit from their philosophies regarding it.

Thanks for the reply

 

[makesends]

I was addressing your statement "I agree. And Ecclesiastes was written as a large parenthesis within a larger point —verses sounding as though there is no life after death are not standalone doctrinal statements, but representative of a mind looking at this life for its own sake. Vanity. Uselessness. Frustration."

There is nothing in Ecc. or anywhere in the LAW and Prophets which says, or even implies there is no life after death, in my view. I mentioned this in my reply. It seems clear that men will remain dead, until they are raised from the dead. And the Law and Prophets define what it means to be "Dead". And it isn't praising God in heaven, nor is it floundering in a lake of fire. These happen after a man is raised from the dead and judgment is given. At least according to Scriptures in my view.



I have heard "many" who come in Christ's Name, teaching that the spirit men are born with is an immortal spirit. In fact, the very foundation of mainstream Christianity, is that all human spirits are born immortal. Some spend their immortal lives in heaven, and some spend their immortal lives in hell.

In my studies, I don't see this popular religious philosophy taught by Scriptures. Only by this world's religions. The same religions the Bible warns men about from even before the Exodus.

I think it's a great topic for discussion but a difficult one for some. There is a truth regarding this topic. It seems prudent to consider all that is written in scriptures to find it, and try to do so apart from the influence of the many religious businesses and sects of this world God placed us in. Death is a huge business for this world's religions, and the merchants of the earth who benefit from their philosophies regarding it.

Thanks for the reply

I'm wondering if you even understand the concept of Spirit as opposed to Soul.

I myself consider spiritual death (Eph 2, Rom 8 et al) to be the natural status of the Self, who is walking around. To the average human, I suppose, the concept would be not that their human spirit is non-existent, but to lack Spiritual (God's realm) life. That's close enough. But the human spirit within man is Spiritually dead until regenerated. I.e. the two references to 'spirit' are two different things.

 

[Studyman]

I'm wondering if you even understand the concept of Spirit as opposed to Soul.

I myself consider spiritual death (Eph 2, Rom 8 et al) to be the natural status of the Self, who is walking around.

But this spirit you speak of, did it return to God who gave it? Has your body returned to the earth as dust? Obviously not. So then, there is a difference between "Spiritual Death" of a man walking around dead in trespasses and sins, and the end of one's physical life, where they are dead and buried, their bodies return to the earth, and their spirit returned to God who gave it.

Is this not true, according to scriptures?

To the average human, I suppose, the concept would be not that their human spirit is non-existent, but to lack Spiritual (God's realm) life. That's close enough. But the human spirit within man is Spiritually dead until regenerated. I.e. the two references to 'spirit' are two different things.

I agree. That is my point. Both the man dead in trespasses and sins, and the man who is physically dead, must be regenerated to "live" again.

In The one death, we can be called to repentance, and turn to God, and as Paul teaches, "Bring works worthy of repentance", and the blindness will be removed, and truth of God revealed, and we can have hope for something more than this life.

But for the other death, when our physical life is over, that's it. We can no longer choose to repent, turn to God, or bring works worthy of repentance. We can no longer "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God. We cannot "Put on" a New Man. We wait for God in silence, knowing nothing, not even that we are dead, until God breaths life back into us. And this doesn't take place until Jesus comes back. The ancient traditions of the RCC notwithstanding.

I completely agree that God preserves the spirit/soul of man for judgment. And can do so for as long as HE wishes. And for those who God accepts, HE grants eternal life. And those who are "Thrust out", HE destroys in the fire reserved for the immortal angels that sinned against God.

Jesus and I are in agreement on this point.

Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy "both" soul and body in hell.

It is because of these and many other scriptures that it seems the ancient popular religious philosophy of this world, that men go to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity immediately after death, is a false teaching. I understand how big the whole death business is, and how this world's religions have turned it into a cash cow for a lot of folks.

But the Scriptures simply don't support the doctrine.

 

[makesends]

But this spirit you speak of, did it return to God who gave it? Has your body returned to the earth as dust? Obviously not. So then, there is a difference between "Spiritual Death" of a man walking around dead in trespasses and sins, and the end of one's physical life, where they are dead and buried, their bodies return to the earth, and their spirit returned to God who gave it.

Is this not true, according to scriptures?

I agree. That is my point. Both the man dead in trespasses and sins, and the man who is physically dead, must be regenerated to "live" again.

In The one death, we can be called to repentance, and turn to God, and as Paul teaches, "Bring works worthy of repentance", and the blindness will be removed, and truth of God revealed, and we can have hope for something more than this life.

But for the other death, when our physical life is over, that's it. We can no longer choose to repent, turn to God, or bring works worthy of repentance. We can no longer "Yield ourselves" servants to obey God. We cannot "Put on" a New Man. We wait for God in silence, knowing nothing, not even that we are dead, until God breaths life back into us. And this doesn't take place until Jesus comes back. The ancient traditions of the RCC notwithstanding.

I completely agree that God preserves the spirit/soul of man for judgment. And can do so for as long as HE wishes. And for those who God accepts, HE grants eternal life. And those who are "Thrust out", HE destroys in the fire reserved for the immortal angels that sinned against God.

Jesus and I are in agreement on this point.

I must have misunderstood you or something, because here you are agreeing with me.

It is because of these and many other scriptures that it seems the ancient popular religious philosophy of this world, that men go to heaven for eternity or hell for eternity immediately after death, is a false teaching. I understand how big the whole death business is, and how this world's religions have turned it into a cash cow for a lot of folks.

But the Scriptures simply don't support the doctrine.

Yet here, you seem to think that what you and I both agree on implies that people necessarily do NOT go to hell or heaven immediately. You can't prove that. In fact, regardless of the sequence, unless you can prove there is from God's POV a passage of time between death and resurrection —that is, that time rules even in facts post-death— your thesis doesn't work. I can't prove that we go immediately (for lack of a better word available to humans) to heaven (or hell) but I have reason to think it makes sense.

 

[Studyman]

I must have misunderstood you or something, because here you are agreeing with me.

Remember, I responded to your statement, ""I agree. And Ecclesiastes was written as a large parenthesis within a larger point —verses sounding as though there is no life after death are not standalone doctrinal statements, but representative of a mind looking at this life for its own sake. Vanity. Uselessness. Frustration."

And this when I posted an Ecc. verse in which God defines what it is like to be "Dead". (Assuming that the God of the Bible exists and Inspired the Holy Scriptures)

Yet here, you seem to think that what you and I both agree on implies that people necessarily do NOT go to hell or heaven immediately. You can't prove that. In fact, regardless of the sequence, unless you can prove there is from God's POV a passage of time between death and resurrection —that is, that time rules even in facts post-death— your thesis doesn't work.

This is a great point about "time".

Time doesn't rule in God's Realm, in my view. And it certainly can be Scripturally accurate to believe Time doesn't rule over a man, once the man is dead, and the spirit of this man returns to God who gave it. The body doesn't continue to grow, the spirit doesn't continue to learn. The spirit isn't corrupted either, as the body is, being still under the influence of time.

So when Peter says of David, after the death and resurrection of Christ, that "he" is still both dead and buried, as he has been for centuries, David doesn't know this. He doesn't even know he's dead, because the dead know nothing. And when his eyes are opened, upon his resurrection "from the dead", he will have no idea how much time has gone by, what has transpired in this world since he has been dead. Like the Rich Man waking up to his judgment and seeing Abraham who has been alive for a 1000 years.

So for men, they die and the next thing they see is the Judgment Seat of Christ at HIS Return. (1 Thess. 4:14-17) I concede that the dead have to concept of time.

There were those religious men, who called Jesus Lord in Paul's Time, who taught others that this Resurrection has already happened. (2 Tim. 2:18) Just as there is a massive religious business in this world God placed us in, that profits in the death of men, by promoting the same falsehood today. But that would mean Jesus turned and we didn't know it. There is nothing in scriptures to support this doctrine.

I am both honored and humbled at the opportunity of discussing this matter, not according to the philosophies of this world's religious sects and businesses, but according to Scriptures that God gave us for our admonition.

I can't prove that we go immediately (for lack of a better word available to humans) to heaven (or hell) but I have reason to think it makes sense.

I too, have reason to believe in purgatory, and that Christ was born on Dec. 25th, and that God instructed men to honor the murder of His Son by painting easter eggs supposedly laid by a white bunny. Much in the same way Eve had reason to believe God lied to her regarding the consequence of eating that which HE forbad her to eat. We all have been placed in a world in which the "other voice" in the garden exists.

There is no doubt we have been influenced by the religions of this world God placed us in since our youth. Even Jesus would have been subjected to this world's religions and would have needed to discern between the Commandments of God and the religious traditions of men.

For me, that is what this discussion regarding death is about. "Proving" what is acceptable to God. "rightly dividing the word of truth" that the Jesus of the Bible said would set us free. Free from what? I would say, free from deception.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

In Ecclesiastes the Author came to a conclusion regarding the "time" between life and death.

Ecc. 12: 2 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Certainly not a popular doctrine today.

Thanks so much for your perspective and discussion. These discussions are good to have among men, in my view.

Mal. 3: 14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? 15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

 

[Clifford]

Sorry I have been busy learning how to make changes with the forum and it’s look , feel and categories. I’m not ignoring your post. Please be patient thank you

Well it certainly does look good and it's very easy to use. I like all the features.