Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

It's a pretty radical thought Jesus was actually punished with what we deserve, isn't it.

Now God is outside of time, everything he experiences is "eternal," even if he interacts within time. An infinite being can experience in a moment, what a finite being can experience forever. Putting "creaturely" limited temporal terms upon an infinite uncreated is an improper category error.

Does God ever violate justice? Is there any verse anyone's ever shown where God violates justices? Did Jesus "skip" the second death that all sinners experience as their wage and just die bodily? Why then God does one thing for sinners, but something completely else for their substitute?!

What we say is, Jesus experienced the equivalent wrath of God coming to sinners. Spurgeon says it well, and I obviously don't agree with him on all, but he could be well-spoken at times. What he means at the end by "hiding" God's face, is not God disappearing, but rather God's displeasure.

It was as a substitute for sin that he did actually and literally suffer punishment for the sin of all his elect. When I say this, I am not to be understood as using any figure whatever, but as saying actually what I mean. Man for his sin was condemned to eternal fire; when God took Christ to be the substitute, it is true, he did not send Christ into eternal fire, but he poured upon him grief so desperate, that it was a valid payment for even an eternity of fire. Man was condemned to live forever in hell. God did not send Christ forever into hell; but he put on Christ, punishment that was equivalent for that. Although he did not give Christ to drink the actual hells of believers, yet he gave him a quid pro quo—something that was equivalent thereunto. He took the cup of Christ’s agony, and he put in there, suffering, misery, and anguish such as only God can imagine or dream of, that was the exact equivalent for all the suffering, all the woe, and all the eternal tortures of every one that shall at last stand in heaven, bought with the blood of Christ. And you say, “Did Christ drink it all to its dregs?” Did he suffer it all? Yes, my brethren, he took the cup, and

“At one triumphant draught of love,
He drank damnation dry.”


He suffered all the horror of hell: in one pelting shower of iron wrath it fell upon him, with hail-stones bigger than a talent; and he stood until the black cloud had emptied itself completely. There was our debt; huge and immense; he paid the utmost farthing of whatever his people owed; and now there is not so much as a doit or a farthing due to the justice of God in the way of punishment from any believer; and though we owe God gratitude, though we owe much to his love, we owe nothing to his justice; for Christ in that hour took all our sins, past, present, and to come, and was punished for them all there and then, that we might never be punished, because he suffered in our stead. Do you see, then, how it was that God the Father bruised him? Unless he had so done the agonies of Christ could not have been an equivalent for our sufferings; for hell consists in the hiding of God’s face from sinners, and if God had not hidden his face from Christ, Christ could not—I see not how he could—have endured any suffering that could have been accepted as an equivalent for the woes and agonies of his people.

Methinks I heard some one say, “Do you mean us to understand this atonement that you have now preached as being a literal fact?” I say, most solemnly, I do. There are in the world many theories of atonement; but I can not see any atonement in any one, except in this doctrine of substitution. Many divines say that Christ did something when he died that enabled God to be just, and yet the Justifier of the ungodly. What that something is they do not tell us.


— Spurgeon
 
I noticed this discussion at another site. Do you believe Jesus suffered eternal torment ? Thanks !

And are there any scriptures you would use to support that belief and that Jesus died spiritually ?
I believe death is simply a separation from that which gives life. Physical death is the separation of the spirit with gives life (James 2:26) from the body. Similarly, spiritual death is the separation of our spirit from the life-giving Spirit of God.

If this is the case, and I believe it is based on Genesis 2:17 and other passages, then yes, Jesus did die spiritually when He hung on the cross. Jesus became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21), and as such, Jesus was cut off from the Father suffering spiritual death even before His physical death.
 
The Bible’s emphasis is on the physical death of Christ, not the spiritual. The teaching of scripture is: “Without shedding of blood (physical) is no remission” Hebrews 9:22

Jesus dying spiritually Is what "Word-Faith", Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland teach. Among the errors many Word-Faith teachers make about the atonement of Christ, is the “spiritualizing” of the death of Jesus Christ.

The teachers of this movement emphasize the “spiritual” death of Christ almost to the exclusion of His “physical” death. The problem with this is simply that it is unbiblical.

In I Peter 3:18, Peter states that Christ was “Put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit.” This does not mean that He was once dead spiritually and now He is alive spiritually, or by the Spirit.
 
The Bible’s emphasis is on the physical death of Christ, not the spiritual. The teaching of scripture is: “Without shedding of blood (physical) is no remission” Hebrews 9:22

Jesus dying spiritually Is what "Word-Faith", Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland teach. Among the errors many Word-Faith teachers make about the atonement of Christ, is the “spiritualizing” of the death of Jesus Christ.

The teachers of this movement emphasize the “spiritual” death of Christ almost to the exclusion of His “physical” death. The problem with this is simply that it is unbiblical.

In I Peter 3:18, Peter states that Christ was “Put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit.” This does not mean that He was once dead spiritually and now He is alive spiritually, or by the Spirit.
Can you imagine God suffering in Hell or God being spiritually dead ? its an oxymoron just like wrath from Father to Son. It is paganism and Greek Philosophy repackaged in todays church. The angry gods must be appeased and your children must be sacrificed on the alter of Molech and it will sooth my anger and indignation. YIKES.
 
@makesends I noticed this discussion at another site. Do you believe Jesus suffered eternal torment ? Thanks !

And are there any scriptures you would use to support that belief and that Jesus died spiritually ?

I would make a comment if I could. When Jesus was alive, He suffered torment. Even to the point of asking God why HE had forsaken Him. But when HE died, HE was no longer tormented, according to what His Spirit inspired to be written in the Law and Prophets.

Ecc. 9: 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

If God had not raised Jesus from the Dead, HE would be where David is, "that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Yes?

Paul and I believe these things.

Acts 24: 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (That would also include things written about "death" in Ecclesiastes, in my view.)

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

If they are not truly dead, but alive in paradise or hell, as is the popular doctrine in this world God placed me in, then what is Paul even talking about?

Great question Civic. Was being despised, chased, threatened, tortured, mocked, spit on and murdered, falsely accused, not enough of a sacrifice. Was HE also tortured after they murdered Him? I think not.
 
I would make a comment if I could. When Jesus was alive, He suffered torment. Even to the point of asking God why HE had forsaken Him. But when HE died, HE was no longer tormented, according to what His Spirit inspired to be written in the Law and Prophets.

Ecc. 9: 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

If God had not raised Jesus from the Dead, HE would be where David is, "that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Yes?

Paul and I believe these things.

Acts 24: 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (That would also include things written about "death" in Ecclesiastes, in my view.)

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

If they are not truly dead, but alive in paradise or hell, as is the popular doctrine in this world God placed me in, then what is Paul even talking about?

Great question Civic. Was being despised, chased, threatened, tortured, mocked, spit on and murdered, falsely accused, not enough of a sacrifice. Was HE also tortured after they murdered Him? I think not.
I wrote a thesis paper on this topic which I posted here on our forum. I’m still adding to the points in the outline and may turn this into a book one day.
 
I wrote a thesis paper on this topic which I posted here on our forum. I’m still adding to the points in the outline and may turn this into a book one day.

I appreciate that there are many books written, and sermons given by many who come in Christ's Name. For me though, it seems much more profitable to place trust in the Scriptures, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That's why I post them for examination and discussion.

I am happy to study and discuss the Holy Scriptures. But sermons, thesis papers, religious books of men etc., there is no end to them. They all differ one from another, and their authors argue among each other as to who is right and who isn't and honestly, why would a man Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, spend so much time on the works of men?

I appreciate the offer, but it seems much more prudent, in my view, to stick to what is written in Scriptures given the instructions given therein.

Thanks.

SM.
 
I appreciate that there are many books written, and sermons given by many who come in Christ's Name. For me though, it seems much more profitable to place trust in the Scriptures, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That's why I post them for examination and discussion.

I am happy to study and discuss the Holy Scriptures. But sermons, thesis papers, religious books of men etc., there is no end to them. They all differ one from another, and their authors argue among each other as to who is right and who isn't and honestly, why would a man Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, spend so much time on the works of men?

I appreciate the offer, but it seems much more prudent, in my view, to stick to what is written in Scriptures given the instructions given therein.

Thanks.

SM.
I appreciate the feedback and my paper is filled with Scripture. But I understand if its to long to read. I was correcting numerous misnomers that are believed in Christianity but not found in Scripture. I was questioning what I had been taught in Christendom with many sayings that actually were not found in the bible such as God is to Holy to look at sin or be in the presence of a sinner. This is one oy many sayings I dismantled in my paper with plenty of scripture that states just the opposite. I go through a half a dozen such misnomers about God that are believed by the majority of christians in most churches.

hope this helps !!!
 
I appreciate the feedback and my paper is filled with Scripture. But I understand if its to long to read. I was correcting numerous misnomers that are believed in Christianity but not found in Scripture. I was questioning what I had been taught in Christendom with many sayings that actually were not found in the bible such as God is to Holy to look at sin or be in the presence of a sinner. This is one oy many sayings I dismantled in my paper with plenty of scripture that states just the opposite. I go through a half a dozen such misnomers about God that are believed by the majority of christians in most churches.

hope this helps !!!


No doubt it does. And I am not afraid of long reads, if I were the Bible wouldn't interest me. But my reply contained specific Scriptures and questions regarding them that seemed relevant to the topic at hand. I had hoped for a discussion regarding them as it seems they too, are correcting misnomers believed on and taught by Mainstream Christianity.

Nevertheless, I appreciate the reply I did receive.
 
No doubt it does. And I am not afraid of long reads, if I were the Bible wouldn't interest me. But my reply contained specific Scriptures and questions regarding them that seemed relevant to the topic at hand. I had hoped for a discussion regarding them as it seems they too, are correcting misnomers believed on and taught by Mainstream Christianity.

Nevertheless, I appreciate the reply I did receive.
Ok I’ll try and address the ones you mentioned , thanks !
 
@makesends I noticed this discussion at another site. Do you believe Jesus suffered eternal torment ? Thanks !

And are there any scriptures you would use to support that belief and that Jesus died spiritually ?
I would say yes, except that I think of "eternal" in terms of degree and not time passage.

Also, I have to admit that many Calvinists and Reformed, of my acquaintance, parse out what exactly was divinity and what was humanity in Christ, in ways that I can't claim to be completely worked out logically. But I agree with them that it seems there is something to that parsing in just what did "die" and how our sin was covered.

To me, there is a LOT more than any of us know, happened there. And I shy away from math and physics when it comes to spiritual reality.
 
I would say yes, except that I think of "eternal" in terms of degree and not time passage.

Also, I have to admit that many Calvinists and Reformed, of my acquaintance, parse out what exactly was divinity and what was humanity in Christ, in ways that I can't claim to be completely worked out logically. But I agree with them that it seems there is something to that parsing in just what did "die" and how our sin was covered.

To me, there is a LOT more than any of us know, happened there. And I shy away from math and physics when it comes to spiritual reality.
So here is the problem with that argument as a traditional/orthodox/creedal believer. Christs person is Divine- the Person not the nature is the one who suffers, thirsts, prays, lives, dies etc...... His nature did not die, His person died. So in that sense we say that God died and suffered for sin. He took on humanity so He could experience everything we do yet without sin. So this is why personally I reject the suffering hell( eternal torment) on our behalf that would be an oxymoron for God to be in hell. Gods wrath and punishment of the wicked that is still future at the GWT Judgement and the 2nd death. Does that make sense ? You don't have to agree but can you follow the train of thought ?
 
So here is the problem with that argument as a traditional/orthodox/creedal believer. Christs person is Divine- the Person not the nature is the one who suffers, thirsts, prays, lives, dies etc...... His nature did not die, His person died. So in that sense we say that God died and suffered for sin. He took on humanity so He could experience everything we do yet without sin. So this is why personally I reject the suffering hell( eternal torment) on our behalf that would be an oxymoron for God to be in hell. Gods wrath and punishment of the wicked that is still future at the GWT Judgement and the 2nd death. Does that make sense ? You don't have to agree but can you follow the train of thought ?
If "'Christ's person' being God" is taken to mean "God came to an end", then, of course, I can follow the train of thought, and even agree with the logical conclusion. But I don't take it to mean that God ended. This reminds me of a side-track to a thread on another site, in which the question of Mary being the "Mother of God", means that God (as Christ) began with Mary. I think we have a bad way of considering our words to carry absolute meaning. We confuse ourselves.
 
I would make a comment if I could. When Jesus was alive, He suffered torment. Even to the point of asking God why HE had forsaken Him. But when HE died, HE was no longer tormented, according to what His Spirit inspired to be written in the Law and Prophets.

Ecc. 9: 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

If God had not raised Jesus from the Dead, HE would be where David is, "that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Yes?

Paul and I believe these things.

Acts 24: 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (That would also include things written about "death" in Ecclesiastes, in my view.)

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

If they are not truly dead, but alive in paradise or hell, as is the popular doctrine in this world God placed me in, then what is Paul even talking about?

Great question Civic. Was being despised, chased, threatened, tortured, mocked, spit on and murdered, falsely accused, not enough of a sacrifice. Was HE also tortured after they murdered Him? I think not.
I believe as Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Like both Jesus and Stephen said with their last breath was "into Your hands I commit my spirit". I believe the body dies and is buried and the soul/spirit goes to be with the Lord as we await the Resurrection. In Revelation we see the souls who were killed with the Lord asking how long will it be until you avenge us. Rev 6:9

hope this helps !!!
 
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