Deliverance from Calvinism

[Jim]

No believing is not a work.

"Works salvation" is the belief that a person can earn or merit salvation by performing good deeds and following religious rules. In contrast, many Christian traditions teach that salvation is a free gift from God received through grace by faith in Jesus Christ, not through human effort or works. From this perspective, good works are considered a result or evidence of salvation, not the means of achieving it.

Does anyone of faith seriously believe that if baptism is a requirement for salvation and they are baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit then they have earned or merited salvation? I seriously doubt that.

That whole "works salvation" mantra is a man-created bit of nonsense.

And yes, Jesus said believing is a work. It is something that you do in order to be saved.

 

[Amos]

Does anyone of faith seriously believe that if baptism is a requirement for salvation and they are baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit then they have earned or merited salvation? I seriously doubt that.

That whole "works salvation" mantra is a man-created bit of nonsense.

And yes, Jesus said believing is a work. It is something that you do in order to be saved.

I hear you, believing can burn up a ton of brain cells. Lucky we can get Ginkgo Biloba to help us recuperate.

 

[Jim]

I hear you, believing can burn up a ton of brain cells. Lucky we can get Ginkgo Biloba to help us recuperate.

Don't underestimate the bodily energy required to think.

 

[Angelo]

MOST CALVINISTS TEACH THAT we did not freely choose to follow Jesus, but that we were constrained to respond to God by some irresistible compelling on His part. They say that it was by God’s choosing that we were picked out for salvation, and even try to prove it with verses like:

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you” (John 15:16).

However, this “being chosen” has more to do with the function and vocation of the apostles than with their salvation. Jesus chose the twelve from among the many who followed Him, and they in turn were eager to leave all for His sake.

The meaning of chosen here would be similar to that in John 6:70, where Jesus says, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” If Jesus had chosen Judas for eternal life, how could the text say, “Satan having entered into him” (Luke 22:3)?

He had chosen Judas and the other eleven as apostles, not elected them as believers, otherwise Jesus would also have saved Judas; so this choosing referred to their specific ministry and service for God, rather than to salvation itself.

The Bible clearly refers to Jesus as the One supremely chosen by God the Father: “Behold My Servant, Whom I have chosen, My Beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He will declare justice to the Gentiles” (Matt 12:18).

Obviously, this chosenness has nothing at all to do with the certitude of Jesus’ eternal destiny! This passage refers to the special redemptive mission He was destined to accomplish, leaving heaven’s glory to live here on earth and then make atonement for the sins of the whole world.

In Acts 22:14, when Paul was arrested in Jerusalem, he gave a significant account of what Ananias had said to him after his conversion experience. Ananias spoke of God having chosen Paul to know God’s will, to see the Just One, and to hear the voice of His mouth.

This is certainly to do with God having chosen him for apostleship, not to the salvation experience itself. God had chosen Paul for a particular ministry, and he would become a witness to all men revealing what he had seen and heard, transmitting instruction to the churches as led by the Holy Spirit, and thus creating outstanding pages of divinely inspired Scripture.


Dudley Ward, Programmed by God or Free to Choose? Five-Point Calvinism under the Searchlight

 

[Amos]

Don't underestimate the bodily energy required to think.

Yes one can become brain dead and that bad.

Brain death is not curable, as it means the complete and irreversible cessation of all brain and brainstem function. A person who is brain dead is legally and medically deceased, and there is no chance of recovery. While a ventilator can keep the heart beating and oxygen circulating, it is only artificial support for a body that is otherwise dead and cannot survive on its own.

 

[Angelo]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Calvinists are brain dead. I'll stick with them being deceived.

 

[TomL]

And you do? That is a hoot!!

As I stated

You have no idea what you are talking about.

But it appears you have a desire to add something to faith.

And Romans 10 is how you are trying to push that theological view.

So be upfront about it.

What are all the things you believe must be added to faith for one to be saved?

So why did you not answer the question?

 

[TomL]

Perhaps to you, given that you do not understand the basics of logical communication.

And again you appear not to know what you aretalking about

Yes, but you seem not to understand what it means.

And it does not say that if you do not believe, you cannot be saved.

Yet many verses do

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 (LEB) — 8 with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus,

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

I add them to all the verses that mention confession.

And you do what with the verses that promise salvation based upon faith?

example

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:16

For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

Eph 2:8–9

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

Acts 16:31

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

1 John 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24

Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Rom 3:22–24

that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Gal 2:16

but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

John 11:25–26

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”

2 Thess 2:13

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,

Acts 13:39

by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Rom 4:5

But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,

1 Cor 15:1–2

Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.

Eph 1:13–14

in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Acts 10:43

To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 26:18

to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 3:23–25

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,

If that is how you wish to interpret it, that is up to you.

What about the one who comes to faith just a moment before his death? I have never said anything about that. That really has little, if anything, to do with what we are talking about.

Actually, it does have to do with what we are talking about.

And it would prove contrary to added conditions.

What are you adding to faith?

 

[TomL]

You do not simply accept belief. You not only establish faith as a condition; you establish faith as the only condition. That is false as, for example, what is stated in Romans 10 and more that a few other passages in the NT.

And it has nothing to do with what I want. It has to do with what the bible says.

Sorry Romans 10 does not prove that

If I say all who believe and are left-handed are saved

It does not mean all who believe but are right-handed are not saved.

Sorry, but it does appear you have an addition you desire would be true.

 

[TomL]

Yes, but it does establish necessary conditions for salvation. It establishes the fact that faith is not the one and only condition for salvation.

So you would just deny verses like

John 3:16

For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

Eph 2:8–9

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

Acts 16:31

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

1 John 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24

Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 11:25–26

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”

 

[TomL]

I have never thought or said that he did deny the necessity of faith in salvation. But he is definitely denying what the Bible says is necessary for salvation.

The statement, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", clearly states that both believing and baptizing are necessary to be saved.

Bingo

Your doctrine for the necessity of water baptism, as I suspected, reveals itself

What do you do with all the verses that do not mention it

John 3:16

For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

Eph 2:8–9

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

Acts 16:31

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

1 John 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24

Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 11:25–26

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”

Eph 1:13–14

in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.


2 Tim 3:15

and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31

but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[Jim]

Your doctrine for the necessity of water baptism, as I suspected, reveals itself

I actually have not said that water baptism is necessary. Once again it would appear you read your own thinking into whatever is written, here or in the bible.

What do you do with all the verses that do not mention it

I accept them for what they say and I don't ignore them like you ignore all the verses that do mention it.

 

[Richard]

In his sermon at Mars Hill, Paul declared that God “commands all people everywhere to repent” Acts 17:30

Repentance has been defined as “the acknowledgement and condemnation of one’s own sins, coupled with a turning to God.”

I do not believe God would command us to do something we were not able to do. This notion of repentance is central to Christian life and points toward the loving nature of God who desires a relationship with all of His creation.

It is important because it shows our willingness to align ourselves with God’s ways instead of our own. For me when after years of doing life my way and living with the results, I found the gospel was the answer I was looking for and didn't even know it. One thing I know now, it was the best decision I ever made.

 

[TomL]

I actually have not said that water baptism is necessary. Once again it would appear you read your own thinking into whatever is written, here or in the bible.

I accept them for what they say and I don't ignore them like you ignore all the verses that do mention it.

Let's make it plain

Will you deny a necessity of water baptism for salvation?

And what do you do with the many more verses that attribute forgiveness of sin, receiving the Spirit and salvation to only faith?

 

[TomL]

I actually have not said that water baptism is necessary. Once again it would appear you read your own thinking into whatever is written, here or in the bible.

I accept them for what they say and I don't ignore them like you ignore all the verses that do mention it.

Again What do you do with all the verses that do not mention anything but faith?

Are they saved?

John 3:16

For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

Eph 2:8–9

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

Acts 16:31

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

1 John 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24

Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 11:25–26

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”

Eph 1:13–14

in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.


2 Tim 3:15

and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

John 20:31

but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[Jim]

Let's make it plain

Will you deny a necessity of water baptism for salvation?

No, It is not me that says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". That was Jesus. And I am only quoting Him. Jesus clearly presents both believing and being baptized as conditions for being saved.

And what do you do with the many more verses that attribute forgiveness of sin, receiving the Spirit and salvation to only faith?

There are many verses that present faith as a condition that is needed for obtaining forgiveness of sin, receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit i.e., being saved. There is no verse that says that faith is the only condition that is needed. That is your improper interpretation things.

 

[TomL]

If that is how you wish to interpret it, that is up to you.

What about the one who comes to faith just a moment before his death? I have never said anything about that. That really has little, if anything, to do with what we are talking about.

I simply asked you

That means those without the power of speech cannot be saved?

Why do you not answer?

And coming to faith moments before death is related to what has been asked.

 

[TomL]

No, It is not me that says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". That was Jesus. And I am only quoting Him. Jesus clearly presents both believing and being baptized as conditions for being saved.

There are many verses that present faith as a condition that is needed for obtaining forgiveness of sin, receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit i.e., being saved. There is no verse that says that faith is the only condition that is needed. That is your improper interpretation things.

Lets get serious

In the list of the many verses I posted, is there anything other faith mentioned?

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:16

For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

Eph 2:8–9

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

Acts 16:31

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

1 John 5:13

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24

Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Rom 3:22–24

that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Gal 2:16

but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

John 11:25–26

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”

2 Thess 2:13

But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,

Acts 13:39

by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Rom 4:5

But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,

1 Cor 15:1–2

Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.

Eph 1:13–14

in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Acts 10:43

To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 26:18

to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 3:23–25

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,

As the verses are written are they true?

 

[Jim]

Lets get serious

In the list of the many verses I posted, is there anything other faith mentioned?

Not a one of those verses states that faith is the only condition needed. Again, that is your inappropriate interpretation.

 

[Jim]

I simply asked you

That means those without the power of speech cannot be saved?

Is that what the Bible says?

Why do you not answer?

And coming to faith moments before death is related to what has been asked.

That specific situation is not discussed in the Bible.