Daniel's 70 weeks and the Messiah

[SteveB]

I quoted

2 Peter 3:3–13 (NASB 2020) — 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?

The topic under discussionis the coming of the lord

For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

this day is the day of the lord

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

it is clear on this day the heavens and earth are consumed by fire

now show how the text 2Pe does not show the destruction of the heaven and earth at Christ's coming

You're done Tom. Your refusal to read the commentaries and resources given, and failure to demonstrate a count of the 69 sevens, are quite demonstrative that you don't actually have any interest whatsoever in understanding why others believe as we do.
I spent 11+ years on another forum with atheists who did exactly the same. I'm through with that.
Have a great day.

Ciao!

 

[TomL]

You're done Tom. Your refusal to read the commentaries and resources given, and failure to demonstrate a count of the 69 sevens, are quite demonstrative that you don't actually have any interest whatsoever in understanding why others believe as we do.
I spent 11+ years on another forum with atheists who did exactly the same. I'm through with that.
Have a great day.

Ciao!

Laughable

Reading biased commentaries while ignoring the text is not how one comes to truth

Do you not think there are no commentaries which deny what you claim?

Are you unaware everyone is not a dispensationist?

Should anyone be surprised dispensationalist sources would extol a dispensational view

The issue is which view fits scripture

and if you cannot demonstrate an atonement in one of the weeks your view is worthless as not being consistent with the text

It's very simple scripture wins

 

[SteveB]

Laughable

Reading biased commentaries while ignoring the text is not how one comes to truth

Do you not think there are commentaries which deny what you claim?

Should anyone be surprised running to dispensationalist sources would extol a dispensational view

The issue is which view fits scripture

and if you cannot demonstraste an atonement in one of the weeks your view is worthless as not being consistent with the text

It's very simple scripture wins

Scripture does indeed win.
That would explain why so many people who are very educated, preachers/teachers, and are published have a different view than you.

 

[TomL]

Scripture does indeed win.
That would explain why so many people who are very educated, preachers/teachers, and are published have a different view than you.

LOL

And they are many who disagree with them just as educated.

Scripture not commentators determine truth

Post a week in which atonement is accomplished in your view

it should be a simple task if there is truth in your view

and if you cannot it is evidence your view is false.

Your failure to do so is quite telling

 

[SteveB]

LOL

And they are many who disagree with them just as educated.

Ironically, you've never provided any, so I have no idea.

Scripture not commentators determine truth

yep. But that also means that neither you nor I determine the truth either.
So, dial it back and start learning to do some research.
If you actually have people who you believe, then provide their materials.
Give me a reason to think something different.

Post a week in which atonement is accomplished in your view

it should be a simple task if there is truth in your view

and if you cannot it is evidence your view is false.

Your failure to do so is quite telling

And your unwillingness to read is equally telling.

 

[TomL]

Ironically, you've never provided any, so I have no idea.

You ignored Philip Mauro, but the main point is your view cannot meet the particulars of the prophecy

you have no atonement in the allotted 70 weeks

Hello

That one fact refutes any opinion of man you can give to the contrary

yep. But that also means that neither you nor I determine the truth either.
So, dial it back and start learning to do some research.
If you actually have people who you believe, then provide their materials.
Give me a reason to think something different.


And your unwillingness to read is equally telling.

LOL

I have scripture and the fact your view has no atonement in the 70 weeks

I do not need any more than that. There is no need for me to note I was inculcated in your view, so I know it well but discovered it was contrary to scripture

Unlike you, I place no stock in the opinions of men when scripture so clearly contradicts them

Your view has no atonement in the 70 weeks contrary to

Daniel 9:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

therfore it can only be false

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm thinking that it's because you're the only one who actually believes it.
I mentioned it to my pastor this morning at men's breakfast and he immediately said you were wrong.
So, yeah... no idea where you get the idea that the world will be destroyed at the second coming.
It's clearly not what Peter is saying.

I could be wrong, it has happened before (LOL). But I don't think so. We are told in Rev 20:11 & 21:1 that the Old heavens and Earth will be gone, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them." "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea."
Connecting this with Peter's comments in 2 Pet 3, I believe that the entirety of creation will either be destroyed instantly at the second coming, or it will be laid bare (all life extinguished) when He comes, and then destroyed after the thousand years (which happen in Heaven, not on Earth).

I do, regularly. The pastors of all the churches I've ever attended, reading the bible for contextuality is an imperative.
We call it 20-20.
20 verses before and 20 verses after. We call it having 20-20 vision.

the context says you're wrong.
hermeneutics shows you are wrong.

do you think YHVH is wrong in his description?
read the context.
20-20.

No, I think that for those He was speaking to, His coming was not going to be a blessing, but the fulfillment of the curse.

What do you think is going to happen when Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives?
It says in Hebrews 9:28

Heb 9:28 WEB so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Yes, for those of us who eagerly await His coming He will bring salvation. But to those who are not His, He will bring the curses listed in Isaiah.

Really?
Curious... they both describe the dynamic of the Rapture/rapiemur/harpadzo.

They do give details about the resurrection of the saints. But they do not give details about when that happens in relation to the thousand years, the destruction of Earth, or Judgement. 1 Thes 4 is giving comfort to those who are fearful that their loved ones who have died are gone for good. But God is giving comfort that they will be seen again (those that are in Christ at least). Because Rev 20 also gives insight to this event, where it says that only the righteous dead will be resurrected at this time (Rev 20:4-5). They will be the ones who spend the thousand years with God in Heaven (since 1 Thes 4 says that we will forever be where Jesus is). The evil dead are not resurrected until after the thousand years as depicted in Rev 20:7-8). Satan will continue to deceive those who are still under His sway, and he and all of them will be cast into the lake of fire.

There is a new covenant that Jesus makes with Israel. It's not the Daniel 9:26-27 one.
You're talking apples and oranges.

I believe that the covenant mentioned in Dan 9 is the New Covenant that Jesus made with Israel. Looking at Dan 9:26-27,
"Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”"
Notice that the object of the bolded portion above is THE PEOPLE, it is not the prince. The prince is the one to whom the people belong, but he cannot be the antecedent of the "he" underlined in verse 27. He refers all the way back to the Messiah who will be cut off in verse 26.

thank God it's his calendar isn't ours.
according to Daniel 12,
Dan 12:10-12 WEB 10 Many will purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined, but the wicked will do wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. 11 “From the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there will be one thousand two hundred ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days.

Enduring Word Bible Commentary Daniel Chapter 12

David Guzik commentary on Daniel 12 describes a time of future trouble destined for Israel, and the resolution of resurrection.

enduringword.com

at 1290 days, from the time the burnt offerings are removed and the abomination that makes desolate, you can count 1290 days, Messiah steps foot on the Mt of Olives. For the next 45 days... judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46)

Matt 25:31-46 does not put Jesus on the Mt of Olives. It says He will sit on His throne (which is in Heaven). And all mankind will be gathered to Him (again, in Heaven). He will not again sit on the Mt. of Olives to judge the nations.

He's given us enough to make sure we are diligent in getting ready.
what we can't know, we don't need to know.

Absolutely.

Most definitely NOT an outgrowth!
We come from a totally different olive tree!

Thank you for correcting my usage of that word. Yes, we are grafted in, which makes us part of the same Israel with whom Jesus made His New Covenant.

Please go back to the post I asked them in.

Ahh, I see a question I did not see the first time.
I cannot count the number of times I have read the OT. I have not even tried to keep a count.

 

[SteveB]

I could be wrong, it has happened before (LOL). But I don't think so. We are told in Rev 20:11 & 21:1 that the Old heavens and Earth will be gone, "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them." "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea."

Yes. But if you look, Revelation 20 describes a period of 1000 years where Jesus sits as King in Jerusalem, over in present day Israel.
So, this present world will indeed be destroyed. But it's not going to happen the moment Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives.
It'll take 45 days of judging the nations- Daniel 12:10-12, Matthew 25:30-46.

After which everyone who is deemed a sheep (Matthew 25:30-40), enters the millennium, and gets to live in a Kingdom of God on earth.

Connecting this with Peter's comments in 2 Pet 3, I believe that the entirety of creation will either be destroyed instantly at the second coming, or it will be laid bare (all life extinguished) when He comes, and then destroyed after the thousand years (which happen in Heaven, not on Earth).

Not instantly.
It's 45 days, then a thousand years, then a presently undefined period of time after the thousand years. Could be days, weeks, months, or even years. I can't imagine the devil successfully convincing a large number of people who had spent a good portion of time under God's Rule rebelling in so large a scale, quickly. But, considering that there will be people who will be dying at 100 years of age (Isaiah 65:20) due to rebellion against God, I've had a couple discussions about it, and wondered if perhaps they'll be slowly gathering a large collection of writings which will result in a mass rebellion once the 1000 years is finished, and the devil will merely be whispering in ears of "mortals."
Revelation 20:7-10.
It'll be a sad day indeed.


So... that's a bad interpretation.
i.e., you're wrong.

No, I think that for those He was speaking to, His coming was not going to be a blessing, but the fulfillment of the curse.

Yes. In part. It's not so much a curse, but their rebellion against God and his Law. It'll be terrifying to the sinners, and unbelievers.

Yes, for those of us who eagerly await His coming He will bring salvation. But to those who are not His, He will bring the curses listed in Isaiah.

They do give details about the resurrection of the saints. But they do not give details about when that happens in relation to the thousand years, the destruction of Earth, or Judgement.

Actually, it's before the tribulation period (as defined in the prophets).

1 Thes 4 is giving comfort to those who are fearful that their loved ones who have died are gone for good.

that is part of it, certainly. But those in Christ will be translated immediately following those who have died in Christ.

But God is giving comfort that they will be seen again (those that are in Christ at least).

Correct.

Because Rev 20 also gives insight to this event, where it says that only the righteous dead will be resurrected at this time (Rev 20:4-5).

those who have died believing, following the beginning of the tribulation.

They will be the ones who spend the thousand years with God in Heaven (since 1 Thes 4 says that we will forever be where Jesus is).

Considering that Jesus will spend a thousand years ruling as King, in earthly Jerusalem, they'll be with him, on earth, ruling and reigning as a kingdom of priests.

The evil dead are not resurrected until after the thousand years as depicted in Rev 20:7-8).

Correct.

Satan will continue to deceive those who are still under His sway, and he and all of them will be cast into the lake of fire.

After he's released from his prison, Revelation 20:7-10.

I believe that the covenant mentioned in Dan 9 is the New Covenant that Jesus made with Israel. Looking at Dan 9:26-27,
"Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”"

Nope.
The people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

This was Rome and Titus.
"and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"
Matthew 24.

This is the antichrist.
A 7 year treaty. In the middle of the 7 years, he breaks the covenant, stops sacrifice and offering. He stands in the Holy Place and declares himself as God. 2 Thessalonians 2,

And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”"
Once the abomination of desolation takes place, according to Daniel 12, you can count the days to the end. 1290 days.
An absolute nightmare for the inhabitants of the world. Revelation 6 through 19.

Notice that the object of the bolded portion above is THE PEOPLE, it is not the prince.

correct... people of the prince to come.
that was Rome, in 70 AD. They destroyed the temple and the city.

The prince is the one to whom the people belong, but he cannot be the antecedent of the "he" underlined in verse 27.

He refers all the way back to the Messiah who will be cut off in verse 26.

nope. Wrong wording in the Hebrew..
The prince is the word nageed/nagid -- Strong's Hebrew # H5057.
The Anointed is mashiach-- Strong's Hebrew# H4899 .

Two different types of people. One is the Messiah and the other is a ruler of a people.

Matt 25:31-46 does not put Jesus on the Mt of Olives.

Nope. Zechariah 14:4 does.
This is why I asked you about how many times you'd read the old testament.
The second coming of Jesus and its timing, these are all Jewish issues.
we're engrafted, as outsiders, invited into the household. But the rules/dynamics/functionality of the household... it's all Jewish.

It says He will sit on His throne (which is in Heaven).

and will one day be on earth, during the 1000 years.

And all mankind will be gathered to Him (again, in Heaven). He will not again sit on the Mt. of Olives to judge the nations.

actually, he'll come down from the Mt of Olives and sit on His throne in the valley of Jehoshaphat, to judge the nations. Joel 3.

Absolutely.

Thank you for correcting my usage of that word. Yes, we are grafted in, which makes us part of the same Israel with whom Jesus made His New Covenant.

Ahh, I see a question I did not see the first time.
I cannot count the number of times I have read the OT. I have not even tried to keep a count.

Good. Everything is detailed in the old testament and the new testament.
All the prophecies, description of the dynamics, etc... whatever is referred to in the new testament is detailed in the old testament.

Remember, John was Jewish. When he was given the Revelation of Jesus, it would have been in language he'd grown up with as a Jewish man.
There's 404 verses in revelation. One teacher I'm acquainted with said there are over 800 allusions to the old testament in Revelation.

https://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/41/

 

[TomL]

Yes. But if you look, Revelation 20 describes a period of 1000 years where Jesus sits as King in Jerusalem, over in present day Israel.
So, this present world will indeed be destroyed. But it's not going to happen the moment Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives.
It'll take 45 days of judging the nations- Daniel 12:10-12, Matthew 25:30-46.

After which everyone who is deemed a sheep (Matthew 25:30-40), enters the millennium, and gets to live in a Kingdom of God on earth.

Does this sound like an earthly millenium to you

Matthew 25:31–46 (KJV 1900) — 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You will note the unrighteous are sent to everlasting punishment, which according to your theology of premillemial dispensationalism is after the 1000 years

Revelation 20:7–15 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

after the second resurrection

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes. But if you look, Revelation 20 describes a period of 1000 years where Jesus sits as King in Jerusalem, over in present day Israel.
So, this present world will indeed be destroyed. But it's not going to happen the moment Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives.
It'll take 45 days of judging the nations- Daniel 12:10-12, Matthew 25:30-46.

After which everyone who is deemed a sheep (Matthew 25:30-40), enters the millennium, and gets to live in a Kingdom of God on earth.

Revelation 20 describes a period of 1000 years, but it does not say where that occurs. John 14:3 says that when Jesus returns He will take us with Him so that where He is we may also be. 1 Thes 4:16-17 says that those who are dead will go to the Lord first, and then those who are alive will meet Him "in the air", not on Earth. 2 Thes 2:8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." Rev 19:21, says, "The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse."

All the evil ones will die, and all the righteous ones will go to Heaven with Jesus, to forever be where He is.

Yes. In part. It's not so much a curse, but their rebellion against God and his Law. It'll be terrifying to the sinners, and unbelievers.

Absolutely it will. And they will all be killed by Jesus on His return while the righteous are taken up to Heaven. But there won't be some 45 days of judgement BEFORE the thousand years. Judgement comes after the thousand years.

Considering that Jesus will spend a thousand years ruling as King, in earthly Jerusalem, they'll be with him, on earth, ruling and reigning as a kingdom of priests.

Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world. It is a Heavenly, Spiritual Kingdom, and so will not be in the earthly Jerusalem.

Nope.
The people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

And they did, in 70 AD. But the Covenant that was established had already been confirmed (the New Covenant).

This was Rome and Titus.
"and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"
Matthew 24.

This is the antichrist.
A 7 year treaty. In the middle of the 7 years, he breaks the covenant, stops sacrifice and offering. He stands in the Holy Place and declares himself as God. 2 Thessalonians 2,

Yes, and these things have already happened. The antichrist has been in the world since almost the very beginning of the Church.

And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”"
Once the abomination of desolation takes place, according to Daniel 12, you can count the days to the end. 1290 days.
An absolute nightmare for the inhabitants of the world. Revelation 6 through 19.

Then the end has already come, and we do not really exist.
Many ancient Jews viewed the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes as the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27, which says, "On the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate." However, the time frame in verses 24–27 begins with the decree of Cyrus that sent the Jews back to their land after the exile (Ezra 1). This makes it impossible that Daniel's prophecy refers to Antiochus Epiphanes. The year 186 BC was far too early to fit the prophecy—but the year AD 70 was not. In that year, the Roman general Titus invaded Jerusalem to crush a Jewish revolt, entered the temple, had the building destroyed, and carried off the lampstand and other temple artifacts to Rome.
It seems incontrovertible that Titus' actions were the specific fulfillment of Jesus' warning in Mark 13:14 about the "abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be." After all, the parallel verse in Matthew 24:15 says that the abomination would stand in "the holy place," a clear reference to the temple. Christ told the disciples that when they saw the abomination, they were to flee the city. They were not to return from the field for their possessions if they were out working the crops. If they were on the roof of their home, they were not to enter the home before fleeing; rather, they were to scurry down the outdoor staircases (most houses in Judea had flat roofs that people accessed via an outdoor staircase) and flee. The flight would be so perilous that winter travel would be difficult and pregnant women would find it hard to keep up (Mark 13:14–20).

nope. Wrong wording in the Hebrew..
The prince is the word nageed/nagid -- Strong's Hebrew # H5057.
The Anointed is mashiach-- Strong's Hebrew# H4899 .

Two different types of people. One is the Messiah and the other is a ruler of a people.

None of which changes anything. The prince is not the object, the people of the prince are. "He" cannot refer back to the prince, but must refer back to the Messiah.

Nope. Zechariah 14:4 does.
This is why I asked you about how many times you'd read the old testament.
The second coming of Jesus and its timing, these are all Jewish issues.
we're engrafted, as outsiders, invited into the household. But the rules/dynamics/functionality of the household... it's all Jewish.

Zech 14:4 was fulfilled at Jesus' first coming. This passage is one of the reasons the Jews were looking for a warrior king in Messiah. They expected Him to come in defeating the Romans and establishing a physical kingdom. But the Kingdom is not of this world; it is a Spiritual Kingdom without regard to the Land or Jerusalem.

and will one day be on earth, during the 1000 years.

Says Scripture NOWHERE.

actually, he'll come down from the Mt of Olives and sit on His throne in the valley of Jehoshaphat, to judge the nations. Joel 3.

a. In those days and at that time: Joel’s prophecy still concerns the time period connected with it shall come to pass afterward mentioned in Joel 2:28. This is the broad period of the last days, initiated by the Ascension of Jesus and the birth of the church on the day of Pentecost.
i. Many have the wrong idea of the “last days,” thinking only in terms of the final years or months immediately before the return of Jesus in glory to this earth, or the rapture of the church. Scripturally, we can think of the last days as an era, one that began with the birth of the church on the day of Pentecost. Since that time, the church has not been rushing towards a distant edge that represents the consummation of all things. Instead, on Pentecost the church came to the edge – and has run parallel to the brink for some 2,000 years.
b. When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem: In a lesser and immediate sense this was fulfilled in the return from the Babylonian exile. In the greater and ultimate sense it will be fulfilled in the end-times regathering of Israel, to the point where an expectant Israel welcomes Jesus saying, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23:39) and salvation comes to Israel as a whole (Romans 11:26-27).
c. I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat: Joel here describes the final gathering of the nations in rebellion against God at the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:12-16). There is no place in Israel known as the Valley of Jehoshaphat but the name Jehoshaphat means, “The LORD Judges.” It describes God’s place of judgment.
i. “There is no such valley in the land of Judea; and hence the name must be symbolical. It signifies the judgment of God, or Jehovah judgeth.” (Clarke)
ii. This is a judgment of all nations. Joel was written at a time when a terrible plague of locusts brought the judgment of God upon the people of God. At a time like that, it is easy to think “God, You are dealing harshly with us, but what about the ungodly nations? We may be bad, but they are worse. Don’t you care about them?” God used Joel 3 to assure His people that the nations will be dealt with.
d. I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people: God’s complaint against the nations is that they have mistreated His people. Primarily, this has in view the way the nations treat Israel, but also extends to how the nations treat the church. When God’s people are mistreated, God takes it personally and will avenge it.
i. In the judgment of the nations that Jesus described in Matthew 25:31-46, the criteria is not faith in Jesus Christ but how the nations have treated the people of Israel – the brethren of Jesus. Held on the earth after His return in glory, this judgment determines who is allowed to enter into the Millennial Earth, and who goes straight to judgment.
ii. They have cast lots for My people: It is bad enough for man to regard any human life as cheap; it is worse to regard the people of God as cheap. God remembers and will repay.

 

[SteveB]

Does this sound like an earthly millenium to you

Matthew 25:31–46 (KJV 1900) — 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Sounds like Joel 3 to me.
Seriously Tom, you're really going to have to read more.
It's all in the scripture.

You will note the unrighteous are sent to everlasting punishment, which according to your theology of premillemial dispensationalism is after the 1000 years

yep.
and?
whose the everlasting King here Tom?
you?
if you don't like it, you're more than welcome to tell YHVH how things should be, according to you, and your teachers.
as i read Isaiah 40, and Romans 11, He's clearly looking for advisors to tell him how he should be doing things.

Revelation 20:7–15 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

after the second resurrection

Yep.

And?

 

[TomL]

Sounds like Joel 3 to me.
Seriously Tom, you're really going to have to read more.
It's all in the scripture.

Seriously you did not address the issue

Where do you read the unrighteous are sent to eternal punishment at the start of the millenium

Your theology places that after the millenium

hello

 

[SteveB]

Seriously you did not address the issue

Oh, i did actually.
you asked if I thought it sounded like the millennium.
i said it sounded like Joel 3. I'll further add that it sounds like Daniel 12's 45 days of Judging the nations.
those are immediately ahead of the millennium.

Where do you read the unrighteous are sent to eternal punishment at the start of the millenium

Matthew 25:31-46.

Your theology places that after the millenium

No. You're so narrowly focused on winning an argument that you have lost the ability to reason clearly.

hello

Hi. How are you!

 

[TomL]

Oh, i did actually.
you asked if I thought it sounded like the millennium.
i said it sounded like Joel 3. I'll further add that it sounds like Daniel 12's 45 days of Judging the nations.
those are immediately ahead of the millennium.


Matthew 25:31-46.

No. You're so narrowly focused on winning an argument that you have lost the ability to reason clearly.

Hi. How are you!

Sorry you do not know what you are talking about

Your theology as per

Revelation 20:7–15 (ESV) — 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

holds the wicked are sent to the lake of fire and eternal punishment after the thousand years

Typically—summarized here in very simplified form— dispensationalists believe that the end will take place in these stages: (1) a secret return of Christ, with a resurrection of the just and the “rapture” (believers “caught up” with Christ and taken to heaven); (2) a seven-year “tribulation” (when the Antichrist reigns and persecution occurs), with military battles leading up to the Battle of Armageddon; (3) a second, visible return of Christ followed by the sheep/ goats judgment in Matthew 25; (4) a 1,000-year visible reign of Christ on earth; (5) the resurrection of the unjust and the “White Throne Judgment”; (6) the creation of new heavens and earth.

What’s Dispensationalism? – The Lutheran Witness​

witness.lcms.org/2009/whats-dispensationalism-12-2009/

confirmed by

20:12 The final judgment. The subjects are the “dead.” As the redeemed were raised from among the dead one thousand years before (v. 5), and have been in glory with Christ during that period, the “dead” can only be the wicked dead, from the beginning to the setting up of the great white throne in space.

C. I. Scofield, ed., The Scofield Reference Bible: The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments (New York; London; Toronto; Melbourne; Bombay: Oxford University Press, 1917), 1351.

Apparently I know your theology better than you do

 

[SteveB]

Sorry you do not know what you are talking about

Oh, well then.
Logic would dictate that your continuing to ask the same question over and over and over and over again, while expecting a different result shows that you are in fact practicing insanity.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
Albert Einstein often gets the credit for this saying, but you probably won’t be surprised to learn that he never actually said it. This misattributed quotation has been well documented: it appears to have originated around 1980 in literature published by Narcotics Anonymous (Becker; “Insanity”).

So, since you are clearly having a mental health issue, I'd say that you should stop asking me questions about something you cannot actually understand.

Your theology as per

Revelation 20:7–15 (ESV) — 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

holds the wicked are sent to the lake of fire and eternal punishment after the thousand years

Typically—summarized here in very simplified form— dispensationalists believe that the end will take place in these stages: (1) a secret return of Christ, with a resurrection of the just and the “rapture” (believers “caught up” with Christ and taken to heaven); (2) a seven-year “tribulation” (when the Antichrist reigns and persecution occurs), with military battles leading up to the Battle of Armageddon; (3) a second, visible return of Christ followed by the sheep/ goats judgment in Matthew 25; (4) a 1,000-year visible reign of Christ on earth; (5) the resurrection of the unjust and the “White Throne Judgment”; (6) the creation of new heavens and earth.

What’s Dispensationalism? – The Lutheran Witness​

witness.lcms.org/2009/whats-dispensationalism-12-2009/

confirmed by

20:12 The final judgment. The subjects are the “dead.” As the redeemed were raised from among the dead one thousand years before (v. 5), and have been in glory with Christ during that period, the “dead” can only be the wicked dead, from the beginning to the setting up of the great white throne in space.

C. I. Scofield, ed., The Scofield Reference Bible: The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments (New York; London; Toronto; Melbourne; Bombay: Oxford University Press, 1917), 1351.

Apparently I know your theology better than you do

Yeah. Definitely a bad case of insanity.

Have a great day Tom.

 

[TomL]

Oh, well then.
Logic would dictate that your continuing to ask the same question over and over and over and over again, while expecting a different result shows that you are in fact practicing insanity.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
Albert Einstein often gets the credit for this saying, but you probably won’t be surprised to learn that he never actually said it. This misattributed quotation has been well documented: it appears to have originated around 1980 in literature published by Narcotics Anonymous (Becker; “Insanity”).

So, since you are clearly having a mental health issue, I'd say that you should stop asking me questions about something you cannot actually understand.


Yeah. Definitely a bad case of insanity.

Have a great day Tom.

Total dodge

You were refuted by one of your own theology and scripture and you cannot face up to it so you resort to ad hominem

rather pathetic

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/daniels-70-weeks-and-the-messiah.1191/post-56394

Mat 25:31-46 does not support your eschatology and does not say anything at all about an earthly millenium

 

[SteveB]

Total dodge

You were refuted by one of your own theology and you cannot face up to it so you resort to ad hominem

rather pathetic

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/daniels-70-weeks-and-the-messiah.1191/post-56394

I'm not the one who has chosen to continue embarrassing themselves, after being repeatedly asked to walk away.
Nor am I the one who has chosen to ignore what they're given, and repeatedly tell others what they're supposed to be believing.

Nor am I the one who continues to reject what they're explained, and expect people to just blindly accept what they're told.


These are all clear signs of insanity.
So... yes Tom. I am pathetic in your mind. You're the only true follower of Jesus on this forum. Everyone else is a false person, and under no circumstances whatsoever can they actually know the truth unless they agree with you.

Instead of telling me what I believe, based your thoughts, you should stop, and start listening.

I say this because you've already succeeded in isolating yourself and are now working your way out the door.

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”​

Albert Einstein often gets the credit for this saying, but you probably won’t be surprised to learn that he never actually said it. This misattributed quotation has been well documented: it appears to have originated around 1980 in literature published by Narcotics Anonymous (Becker; “Insanity”).

 

[TomL]

I'm not the one who has chosen to continue embarrassing themselves, after being repeatedly asked to walk away.
Nor am I the one who has chosen to ignore what they're given, and repeatedly tell others what they're supposed to be believing.

I am not embarrassed showing you your error, not in the least.

You however have every reason to be embarrased having been shown where scripture refutes your theology and how even those from your own eschatology refute you

Nor am I the one who continues to reject what they're explained, and expect people to just blindly accept what they're told.

not blindly but by scripture which you have ignored and by the testimony of a leading proponent of your own eschatology

for some reason you appear to want to ignore those facts

These are all clear signs of insanity.
So... yes Tom. I am pathetic in your mind. You're the only true follower of Jesus on this forum. Everyone else is a false person, and under no circumstances whatsoever can they actually know the truth unless they agree with you.

Instead of telling me what I believe, based your thoughts, you should stop, and start listening.

You are confused I have not told you what you believe. I have showed you where your errors reside in both scripture and the theology you claim to espouse.

It appears however you are not open to any evidence and will not heed either scripture or those of your own eschatology when they contradict your view

 

[SteveB]

I am not embarrassed showing you your error, not in the least.

You however have every reason to be embarrased having been shown where scripture refutes your theology and how even those from your own eschatology refute you









not blindly but by scripture which you have ignored and by the testimony of a leading proponent of your own eschatology

for some reason you appear to want to ignore those facts




You are confused I have not told you what you believe. I have showed you where your errors reside in both scripture and the theology you claim to espouse.

It appears however you are not open to any evidence and will not heed either scripture or those of your own eschatology when they contradict your view

You're not actually showing me where I'm wrong.
You're only showing that you have some serious preconceptions about my theology and eschatology.

Since you have repeatedly demonstrated your unwillingness to listen, I've simply stopped commenting about my views, and have chosen to focus on your repeatedly stated failures to listen.

Let me know if you ever decide to listen and not tell me your opinions on my views.

I think Solomon had something to say about this.

Pro 18:13 WEB He who answers before he hears, that is folly and shame to him.

 

[TomL]

You're not actually showing me where I'm wrong.
You're only showing that you have some serious preconceptions about my theology and eschatology.

Sorry you are in denial

Scripture shows it is after the 1000 years the wicked are judged and sent to eternal punishment

Scofield agreed with that as well,

Mat 25:31ff says nothing at all about a 1000 year millennium

Since you have repeatedly demonstrated your unwillingness to listen, I've simply stopped commenting about my views, and have chosen to focus on your repeatedly stated failures to listen.

Let me know if you ever decide to listen and not tell me your opinions on my views.

I think Solomon had something to say about this.

Pro 18:13 WEB He who answers before he hears, that is folly and shame to him.

Sorry your refusal to discuss the evidence and decision to discuss me instead shows you do not have a leg to stand on