Daniel's 70 weeks and the Messiah

[DavidTree]

Yes, God has always provided prophecy for His most magnificent works, because without prophecy the event has much less impact. But this prophecy has already seen fulfillment. Is the pope not one fulfillment of this prophecy? And did he not begin his deception as far back as the early 300s AD? And were there not others who already had the spirit of antichrist even before the end of the first century (1 John 4:3)? This prophecy is not restraining God from sending Jesus back anymore. There is nothing left that we are awaiting, or that we can look forward to and say, "this hasn't happened yet, so He cannot come yet."

YES in part and NO in fulfillment.

Current Prophecy = "and many false prophets will arise and mislead many." - Matt 24:11

Future Prophecy = Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming,

Current Prophecy = even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

 

[DavidTree]

Thank you for your unsupported opinions.

I do however have a great idea.
When Jesus comes to snatch/harpadzo his bride, you tell him you don't actually want to go.

Who told you Genesis is a "unsupported opinion"?

 

[SteveB]

Who told you Genesis is a "unsupported opinion"?

You didn't provide any references.
Since I can't actually read your mind, you'll have to do a better job of giving us your thinking, instead of just making vague statements.

 

[TomL]

No Resurrrection = no rapture

Anyone who places rapture BEFORE His Second Coming and the Resurrection are void of basic eschatology.

Indeed
1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[DavidTree]

Who told you Genesis is a "unsupported opinion"?

Genesis Proclaims the First Coming of MESSIAH = Genesis 3:14

So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

The first 'suffering unto death of the LORD' = Genesis 4:1-10


Genesis also Proclaims the First and Second Comings of the LORD Jesus Christ.

Genesis chapters 5-7 AND chapters 35 - 49 = Jacob is told to go to Bethel( Christ is born in Bethlehem) AND the life of Joseph

This is the Foundation that God BEGINS with and proclaims the TWO Distinct Comings of the LORD.

 

[Doug Brents]

YES in part and NO in fulfillment.

Current Prophecy = "and many false prophets will arise and mislead many." - Matt 24:11

Future Prophecy = Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming,

Current Prophecy = even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

We are in the Last Hour, because the antichrist is already in the world. The antichrist is not a single individual still in our future, but is a spirit of denying Christ as God, and as Messiah (2 John 1:7), and it has been in the world since before the end of the first century (1 John 4:3).

 

[DavidTree]

We are in the Last Hour, because the antichrist is already in the world. The antichrist is not a single individual still in our future, but is a spirit of denying Christ as God, and as Messiah (2 John 1:7), and it has been in the world since before the end of the first century (1 John 4:3).

The 'spirit' of antichrist has been in the world since the Serpent entered the Garden.

The Antichrist will be an 'individual' who will Rise to be the Head of the antichrist established world system of government.

2 Thessaloians 2:7-8
the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed,

1 John 2: 18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Prophecy/Future = "the Antichrist is coming'
Today = "now many antichrists"

 

[DavidTree]

You didn't provide any references.
Since I can't actually read your mind, you'll have to do a better job of giving us your thinking, instead of just making vague statements.

Genesis Proclaims the First Coming of MESSIAH = Genesis 3:15

So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

The first 'suffering unto death of the LORD' = Genesis 4:1-10


Genesis also Proclaims the First and Second Comings of the LORD Jesus Christ.

Genesis chapters 5-7 AND chapters 35 - 49 = Jacob is told to go to Bethel( Christ is born in Bethlehem) AND the life of Joseph

This is the Foundation that God BEGINS with and proclaims the TWO Distinct Comings of the LORD.

 

[Doug Brents]

The 'spirit' of antichrist has been in the world since the Serpent entered the Garden.

Yes, Satan is anti-God, and he is anti-Christ, but the spirit of antichrist is the spirit that denies that Jesus is the Christ in the flesh (2 john 7). Before Jesus was flesh, there was no claim that He was flesh, so there was no denying that He was flesh.

The Antichrist will be an 'individual' who will Rise to be the Head of the antichrist established world system of government.

2 Thessaloians 2:7-8
the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed,

1 John 2: 18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Prophecy/Future = "the Antichrist is coming'
Today = "now many antichrists"

You have heard that he is coming, but he is already here. He is not still future, but was, at the moment when John was writing, already in the world. The lawless one is antichrist, but he is not THE Antichrist. Antichrist is not an individual, but a spirit, a denial of Jesus as the Christ, and it has been in the world for over 1900 years now.

 

[SteveB]

Genesis Proclaims the First Coming of MESSIAH = Genesis 3:15

So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

The first 'suffering unto death of the LORD' = Genesis 4:1-10


Genesis also Proclaims the First and Second Comings of the LORD Jesus Christ.

Genesis chapters 5-7 AND chapters 35 - 49 = Jacob is told to go to Bethel( Christ is born in Bethlehem) AND the life of Joseph

This is the Foundation that God BEGINS with and proclaims the TWO Distinct Comings of the LORD.

Do you always spend your time trying to convince Jesus followers to follow Jesus?

I thought the job of Jesus followers was to preach the cross to those who are perishing.

As Jesus said,

Mat 28:18-20 WEB 18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you always spend your time trying to convince Jesus followers to follow Jesus?

I thought the job of Jesus followers was to preach the cross to those who are perishing.

As Jesus said,

Mat 28:18-20 WEB 18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

"Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still called “today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." Heb 3:12-13

 

[SteveB]

"Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another every day, as long as it is still called “today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." Heb 3:12-13

Yep.
Seeing all these various themes, ideas, generally all counter to everything I read in the Bible, I'm often left with the thought--

Where on earth do these people come up with their ideas.

Your ideas on eschatology are a perfect example.
You're posting things I've viewed as false doctrine for decades.

Same with a few others.

So... as I'm already following Jesus, why try to confuse and pervert what I get regular teaching from my men's studies, and church?

I'm here mostly to just enjoy talking to people who are following Jesus about the Bible and, as is written in Malachi 3,

Mal 3:16-18 WEB 16 Then those who feared Yahweh spoke one with another; and Yahweh listened and heard, and a book of memory was written before him for those who feared Yahweh and who honored his name. 17 They shall be mine,” says Yahweh of Armies, “my own possession in the day that I make. I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. 18 Then you shall return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who doesn’t serve him.

Turning a discussion into an argument that has to be won is not something I'm interested in.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yep.
Seeing all these various themes, ideas, generally all counter to everything I read in the Bible, I'm often left with the thought--

Where on earth do these people come up with their ideas.

Your ideas on eschatology are a perfect example.
You're posting things I've viewed as false doctrine for decades.

Same with a few others.

So... as I'm already following Jesus, why try to confuse and pervert what I get regular teaching from my men's studies, and church?

I'm here mostly to just enjoy talking to people who are following Jesus about the Bible and, as is written in Malachi 3,

Mal 3:16-18 WEB 16 Then those who feared Yahweh spoke one with another; and Yahweh listened and heard, and a book of memory was written before him for those who feared Yahweh and who honored his name. 17 They shall be mine,” says Yahweh of Armies, “my own possession in the day that I make. I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. 18 Then you shall return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who doesn’t serve him.

Turning a discussion into an argument that has to be won is not something I'm interested in.

I have found that my sword is sharpened just by grinding it against other believer's swords, regardless of the topic of Scripture we are discussing. I do not see it as an argument to be won or lost, but a process of forcing myself, and you hopefully, to search the Scriptures more clearly and completely. I have found several places where my understanding was either slightly off or completely wrong. But through the discussions we both learned and grew deeper, stronger roots. Most of the topics of discussion on this forum are not what I would call "salvation issues". If it is not a salvation issue, it is possible that you and I could be diametrically opposed in our views and still both of us be correct. But on "salvation issues" I believe that there is a right and a wrong, and they cannot both be correct.

There are a couple of threads I would like to start with regard to this, but I will have to do it next week since I am going to be out until Monday at a business convention in Louisville, KY.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, Satan is anti-God, and he is anti-Christ, but the spirit of antichrist is the spirit that denies that Jesus is the Christ in the flesh (2 john 7). Before Jesus was flesh, there was no claim that He was flesh, so there was no denying that He was flesh.

You have heard that he is coming, but he is already here. He is not still future, but was, at the moment when John was writing, already in the world. The lawless one is antichrist, but he is not THE Antichrist. Antichrist is not an individual, but a spirit, a denial of Jesus as the Christ, and it has been in the world for over 1900 years now.

If the Antichrist was already in John's day, we would not be here.......................think = think Scripture

ALL Scripture Speaks that there will be a 'man of sin' an individual man.

 

[DavidTree]

Do you always spend your time trying to convince Jesus followers to follow Jesus?

I thought the job of Jesus followers was to preach the cross to those who are perishing.

As Jesus said,

Mat 28:18-20 WEB 18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Red Herring - change of topic to advert Truth and then throw in a slander


I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you always spend your time trying to convince Jesus followers to follow Jesus?

I thought the job of Jesus followers was to preach the cross to those who are perishing.

As Jesus said,

Mat 28:18-20 WEB 18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

"Observe all things that I commanded you".......

That covers everything. The Gospel is more than just the message of the cross. The Gospel is the full revelation of God to humanity.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, Satan is anti-God, and he is anti-Christ, but the spirit of antichrist is the spirit that denies that Jesus is the Christ in the flesh (2 john 7). Before Jesus was flesh, there was no claim that He was flesh, so there was no denying that He was flesh.

You have heard that he is coming, but he is already here. He is not still future, but was, at the moment when John was writing, already in the world. The lawless one is antichrist, but he is not THE Antichrist. Antichrist is not an individual, but a spirit, a denial of Jesus as the Christ, and it has been in the world for over 1900 years now.

I can be both. A culmination of the "spirit" of damnation culminating in the mocking of the incarnation in a physical manifestation. Not saying that is exactly the same but it is undoubtedly similar from my point of view.

 

[Doug Brents]

If the Antichrist was already in John's day, we would not be here.......................think = think Scripture

ALL Scripture Speaks that there will be a 'man of sin' an individual man.

No, ALL Scripture does not speak that there will be a "man of sin". There are only a couple of verses about him. But they have already been fulfilled.

 

[Doug Brents]

I can be both. A culmination of the "spirit" of damnation culminating in the mocking of the incarnation in a physical manifestation. Not saying that is exactly the same but it is undoubtedly similar from my point of view.

Yes, and I believe it is, but the point is that I believe we are not still awaiting some sign that must happen before the end can come. There is no predicted sign that has not already happened at least once.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, and I believe it is, but the point is that I believe we are not still awaiting some sign that must happen before the end can come. There is no predicted sign that has not already happened at least once.

I tend to agree with this but I try to remain open to the idea. I "cut my teeth" in this subject many years ago with the generally accepted view relative to Dispensationalism but I have changed significantly since. I have long abandoned such. I'm not a Preterist in that I believe the "resurrection" is still yet future. I'm not a partial preterist in that open to significant view associated with Amillennialism. Though I do see symbolism in the book of Revelation. I'm a hodgepodge of various circumstances and beliefs. I don't honestly believe we can know what most people claim to know in great detail about such things. I know God has it "covered"...