Daniel's 70 weeks and the Messiah

I have found that my sword is sharpened just by grinding it against other believer's swords, regardless of the topic of Scripture we are discussing.
Over the past few years I've found that this gets quite ugly.
it could also be that i simply grew weary of engaging in what increasingly felt like an argument and not simply a conversation.
It's why I'm on this forum right now and not over at the other forum I've been on since late 2012.
I do not see it as an argument to be won or lost, but a process of forcing myself, and you hopefully, to search the Scriptures more clearly and completely.
The gap theory idea of Daniel 9, 69th seven and the 70th seven... as I'm connected with a group of people who have been taught the same ideas as me, i decided to do a bit of my own research online (off the forum), and then present the questions to them.
the ideas that I've been reading and conversing about... they're far afield from the ammillennial, postmillennial, premillennial, pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib ideas I'm acquainted with.
And since I'm not being given the resources to investigate, I'm left discussing unfamiliar areas, with the information I learned decades ago and there's no coherence between the old, and this new material.


I have found several places where my understanding was either slightly off or completely wrong.
so far, I've not seen much which has caused me concerns about being off.
the scriptures used by everyone are quite familiar.
But through the discussions we both learned and grew deeper, stronger roots.
Indeed.
Most of the topics of discussion on this forum are not what I would call "salvation issues". If it is not a salvation issue,
i think that eschatology is among the salvation issues, in that Jesus told us a number of things that could/would impact our lives eternally.

it is possible that you and I could be diametrically opposed in our views and still both of us be correct.
possible. But if so, you're nit doing a good job in describing it.

But on "salvation issues" I believe that there is a right and a wrong, and they cannot both be correct.
exactly.
i come from a community of Jesus followers who have developed a practice...
if you come along and discuss what seems difficult ideas, and you're both convinced you're right, but disagree, separate, talk to God and then come back together and find agreement.

Abraham Lincoln is purported to have said- I'm not concerned about whether or not God agrees with me. It's important that i agree with God.
There are a couple of threads I would like to start with regard to this, but I will have to do it next week since I am going to be out until Monday at a business convention in Louisville, KY.
Do it.
Practical topics are always important.
Hope the convention goes well.
 
Yes, and I believe it is, but the point is that I believe we are not still awaiting some sign that must happen before the end can come. There is no predicted sign that has not already happened at least once.
@Doug Brents says: "There is no predicted sign that has not already happened at least once."

Would you call the LORD a liar?

Matthew 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be?

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

According to @Doug Brents there should be nothing said by the LORD Jesus after His disciples asked Him =
"And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”



For everyone who believes like @Doug Brents, just rip out Matthew chapter 24 after verse 1

Because
not still awaiting some sign that must happen before the end can come
 
The prince who is to come is who confirms a covenant with the many. He will break it mid point. Daniel 9:26-27. He will take away the offering and sacrifices. Daniel 12.

From David Guzik's Enduring Word Commentary

4. (26) What happens after the first sixty-nine weeks.​

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


a. After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off: The Biblical term cut off is sometimes used to describe execution (see Genesis 9:11 and Exodus 31:14). Gabriel told Daniel that the Messiah will be cut off for the sake of others, not for Himself.

i. “Able chronologists have shown that the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ occurred immediately after the expiration of 483 prophetic years, of 360 days each, from the time of Artaxerxes’ order.” (Ironside)

ii. Strangely, many able commentators simply ignore these numbers. “The numbers are symbolic and not arithmetical.” (Baldwin)

iii. Cut off is a poignant description of Jesus’ earthly life up to and including the cross. “Born in another man’s stable, cradled in another man’s manger with nowhere to lay his head during his life on earth, and buried in another man’s tomb after dying on a cursed cross, the Christ of God and the Friend of the friendless was indeed cut off and had nothing.” (Heslop)

b. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: After the Messiah was cut off, Jerusalem and her temple would be destroyed again by an overwhelming army (with a flood). Most all Bible scholars and commentators agree that this was fulfilled in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

c. The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy: The destroying army is made up of the people of the prince who is to come. This coming prince is described more in Daniel 9:27.

5. (27) The events of the seventieth week.​

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


a. He shall confirm a covenant: The “he” Gabriel described is the prince who is to come mentioned in the previous verse. If we know that the prince’s people destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70, then we know this coming prince has his ancestral roots in the soil of the ancient Roman Empire.

i. Therefore, the prince who is to come will in some way be an heir to the Romans, even as the final world government is an heir to the Roman Empire (Daniel 7).

b. He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week: The coming prince will make a covenant with Israel for the final unit of seven years, completing the seventy weeks prophesied for the Jewish people and Jerusalem.

i. Covenant with many: The word many here is a specific reference to Israel, not a general reference to a group. The ancient Hebrew says, “covenant with the many.”

ii. With this covenant Israel will embrace the Antichrist as a political messiah, if not the literal Messiah. Jesus predicted this in John 5:43: I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

iii. Taking the description of what would be accomplished in the 70 Weeks from Daniel 9:24, we know that the 70 Weeks are not yet complete. Yet the events promised in the first 69 weeks are fulfilled, indicated that there is a lengthy “pause” in the 70 Weeks, between the 69th week and the 70th week. The 70th week will begin when the coming prince shall confirm a covenant with the Jewish people. These gaps or pauses in prophecy may seem strange to us, but they are common. Comparing Isaiah 9:6 and Luke 1:31-33 shows another significant pause or gap in prophecy regarding the coming of the Messiah.

iv. We can think of it in this way: God appointed 490 years of special focus on Israel in His redemptive plan. The years were paused by Israel’s rejection of Jesus. Now there is no special focus on Israel in God’s redemptive plan because this is the time of the church. God’s focus will return to Israel when the church is taken away (at the rapture) and the last seven years of man’s rule on this earth begin.

v. “The 70th week will begin when the Jewish people are restored in unbelief to their land and city; and among them will be found a faithful remnant, owning their sin, and seeking Jehovah’s face.” (Henry Ironside writing in 1911)

c. In the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering: The coming prince will break the covenant with Israel in the middle of the seven years, the final week (period of seven years).

i. The Book of Revelation sees this seven year period with both its halves as yet future (Revelation 12:6, 13-14; 13:5-9, 14-15). The middle of the week and the end of sacrifice had not yet happened in 90 A.D.

d. On the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate: The ending of sacrifice will come with abominations, followed by tremendous desolation.

i. Abominations translates an ancient Hebrew word (shiqquwts) that is connected to horrific idolatry (Deuteronomy 29:17, 1 Kings 11:5-7, 2 Kings 23:13). The idea is that the coming prince breaks the covenant and brings an end to sacrifice and offering by desecrating the holy place of the temple with a horrific idolatry.

ii. Jesus called this the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) and indicated that it would be a pivotal sign in the Great Tribulation. Paul referred to the idolatry of the coming prince in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

e. Until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate: This breaking of the covenant and abomination of desolation has a promised consummation. Before the 70th week is completed, each of the things described in Daniel 9:24 will be accomplished and everlasting righteousness will reign.

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel​

as Understood by Sir Robert Anderson in “The Coming Prince”​

Daniel 9:24-25 says that from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah there will be 483 years.

7 + 62 “weeks” = 69 groups of seven years. 7 x 69 = 483 years

Anderson understood a prophetic year as 360 days. This is based both on ancient history and on Revelation 11:2, 13:5, 11:3, and 12:6 which indicate that 42 months - 3 ½ years - are equal to 1,260 days.

Therefore, 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days

Artaxerxes started his reign in 465 B.C. The decree to rebuild Jerusalem was given on the first day of Nisan, in the 20th year of Artaxerxes. In our calendar system (the Julian calendar) that date is March 14, 445 B.C. (Nehemiah 2:1)

Jesus started His ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius (see Luke 3:1). Tiberius started his reign in A.D. 14, so Jesus’ ministry started in A.D. 29. Anderson believed that Jesus celebrated four Passovers during His ministry, one each in A.D. 29, 30, 31. and His final Passover in A.D. 32. With the help of lunar charts, we can calculate the exact date of ancient Passovers, so it is possible to calculate the exact day of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem as April 6, A.D. 32.

From 445 B.C. to A.D. 32. there are 476 years on the Julian calendar
(not 477 years, because there is no year zero).

476 years x 365 days = 173,740 days.

Adjusting for the difference between March 14 and April 6 adds 24 days.

Adjusting for leap years over a period of 476 years adds 116 days.

The total number of days from March 14, 445 B.C. to April 6, A.D. 32.
173,740 + 24 + 116 = 173,880 days.

According to his calendar, Daniel told us there would be 173,880 days between the decree and the arrival of Messiah the Prince.

Jesus said to the Jews of this day: If you had known, even you, especially IN THIS YOUR DAY, the things that make for your peace! (Luke 19:42). David said of this day in Psalm 118:24: THIS IS THE DAY which the LORD has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

©2018 David Guzik – No distribution beyond personal use without permission
Precious friend, thanks so much - this looks like Very Well 'laid-out' information.
Question:

Where does the following one year fit into the 69 and 70th weeks?:

"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree​
planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit​
thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser​
of his vineyard, Behold, these three years..."​

[ picturing Christ's earthly ministry to the 'lost sheep' of Israel? ]​

"...I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down;​
why cumbereth it the ground?​

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year"​
also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit,​
well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."​
(Luke 13:6-9)​

[ picturing Pentecost until "Israel blasphemed The Holy Ghost/fell"​
Acts 7; Romans 11:11, 25, 32? ]​

Is this "one more year":

a) calculated at the 'end' of the 69th week? = 7 years of the 70th week left?​
b) calculated at the 'beginning' of the 70th week? = 6 years of the 70th left?​
c) perchance does not apply at all?​

Thanks for your time for a learning 'pre-trib' student...

Amen.
 
Precious friend, thanks so much - this looks like Very Well 'laid-out' information.
Question:

Where does the following one year fit into the 69 and 70th weeks?:

"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree​
planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit​
thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser​
of his vineyard, Behold, these three years..."​

[ picturing Christ's earthly ministry to the 'lost sheep' of Israel? ]​

"...I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down;​
why cumbereth it the ground?​

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year"​
also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit,​
well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."​
(Luke 13:6-9)​

[ picturing Pentecost until "Israel blasphemed The Holy Ghost/fell"​
Acts 7; Romans 11:11, 25, 32? ]​

Is this "one more year":

a) calculated at the 'end' of the 69th week? = 7 years of the 70th week left?​
b) calculated at the 'beginning' of the 70th week? = 6 years of the 70th left?​
c) perchance does not apply at all?​

Thanks for your time for a learning 'pre-trib' student...

Amen.
You're welcome.
Keep reading the bible.
I'm digging into this issue further.
I've contacted a couple teachers regarding this to get greater clarity.
 
Precious friend, thanks so much - this looks like Very Well 'laid-out' information.
Question:

Where does the following one year fit into the 69 and 70th weeks?:

"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree​
planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit​
thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser​
of his vineyard, Behold, these three years..."​

[ picturing Christ's earthly ministry to the 'lost sheep' of Israel? ]​

"...I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down;​
why cumbereth it the ground?​

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year"​
also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit,​
well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."​
(Luke 13:6-9)​

[ picturing Pentecost until "Israel blasphemed The Holy Ghost/fell"​
Acts 7; Romans 11:11, 25, 32? ]​

Is this "one more year":

a) calculated at the 'end' of the 69th week? = 7 years of the 70th week left?​
b) calculated at the 'beginning' of the 70th week? = 6 years of the 70th left?​
c) perchance does not apply at all?​

Thanks for your time for a learning 'pre-trib' student...

Amen.
Here's a study on Daniel 9, and the 70 sevens.


 
Here's a study on Daniel 9, and the 70 sevens.
Thanks again for sharing. This may be Very Well spoken at the 32:00 mark?:

"...you may have to do some funky things with the years to make it fit..."​
eh?

I do agree with the 56:00 mark "God Hit The [Prophecy] Pause Button" and we are in the
'gap' or (parenthetical 'Mystery' Age Of Grace, and at our Great Grace Departure),

"He is waiting to Hit" the Prophecy 'Resume' Button to finish up the end times for Israel.

I'm not much into imminent 'pre-trib' "date setting", but I did review this
quite interesting teacher (Dr. Paul Felter), with these 27 'signs' to consider,
for "the stage is set" (1:01:39)?:

Confl_EndTimes_Signs.png

Reading The Bible and studying another Multitude of These Imminent Scriptures.

Be Blessed...
 
Thanks again for sharing. This may be Very Well spoken at the 32:00 mark?:

"...you may have to do some funky things with the years to make it fit..."​
eh?
He was referring to the 70 sevens happening all at the same time.
I.e., Tom's argument is that the 70th seven started at the baptism of Jesus and the Father affirming his Sonship.

If you take Cyrus' decree, then you have to do some funky things with the years to make it fit. Same with the other decrees, to rebuild the temple.
But the last decree, by Artaxerxes, to Nehemiah, that's actually the decree to rebuild the city and the streets.

And as such, the 1st of Nisan 445-444 , to Nisan 10, 31-32 gets us to the day.

Now, this you'll need to read the article linked at the top, called- Calendar Accuracy.
Then get acquainted with the calendar.


On the left side of the calendar is the Hebrew dates. On the right side is the Roman calendar (our modern calendar).

Calculating using the Hebrew dates works best, then look at the right side to see our dates.


I do agree with the 56:00 mark "God Hit The [Prophecy] Pause Button" and we are in the
'gap' or (parenthetical 'Mystery' Age Of Grace, and at our Great Grace Departure),

"He is waiting to Hit" the Prophecy 'Resume' Button to finish up the end times for Israel.

I'm not much into imminent 'pre-trib' "date setting", but I did review this
quite interesting teacher (Dr. Paul Felter), with these 27 'signs' to consider,
for "the stage is set" (1:01:39)?:

View attachment 532

Reading The Bible and studying another Multitude of These Imminent Scriptures.

Be Blessed...
You too.
 
He was referring to the 70 sevens happening all at the same time.
I.e., Tom's argument is that the 70th seven started at the baptism of Jesus and the Father affirming his Sonship.

If you take Cyrus' decree, then you have to do some funky things with the years to make it fit. Same with the other decrees, to rebuild the temple.
But the last decree, by Artaxerxes, to Nehemiah, that's actually the decree to rebuild the city and the streets.

And as such, the 1st of Nisan 445-444 , to Nisan 10, 31-32 gets us to the day.

Now, this you'll need to read the article linked at the top, called- Calendar Accuracy.
Then get acquainted with the calendar.


On the left side of the calendar is the Hebrew dates. On the right side is the Roman calendar (our modern calendar).

Calculating using the Hebrew dates works best, then look at the right side to see our dates.



You too.
You see you are placing more weight on the calculations and calenders of man than what the word of God states
 
Are you going to believe man or God?
pre-trib worshippers must believe man's words over God's words

If they choose to follow God's words then no such pre-trib rapture and 'gap theory' exists.

The 'gap theory' is authentic. However it is not found in God's Word but it is found between the ears of many............
 
pre-trib worshippers must believe man's words over God's words

If they choose to follow God's words then no such pre-trib rapture and 'gap theory' exists.

The 'gap theory' is authentic. However it is not found in God's Word but it is found between the ears of many............
Well let's just say it is not found in scripture
 
Are you going to believe man or God?
I believe YHVH.
So far you are demonstrating yourself to be man.

So I find myself wondering why you would actually think you could be relied upon.

Even Paul told us

1Th 5:21-22 WEB 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

Yet here you are, putting yourself out as though you are above human limitations, and are as reliable as YHVH himself.
 
I believe YHVH.
So far you are demonstrating yourself to be man.

So I find myself wondering why you would actually think you could be relied upon.

Even Paul told us

1Th 5:21-22 WEB 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

Yet here you are, putting yourself out as though you are above human limitations, and are as reliable as YHVH himself.
If you believed YHWH you would reject man's calculations and a gap between 69th and 70th week
 
You're avoiding it

worse practice
Why are you so desperate for me and others to walk in lock step with you?
Your entire collection of monologs have made it quite clear that I want nothing to do with your version of events.
So why are you so desperate to force me to accept what are plainly ridiculous to me?
 
Why are you so desperate for me and others to walk in lock step with you?
Your entire collection of monologs have made it quite clear that I want nothing to do with your version of events.
So why are you so desperate to force me to accept what are plainly ridiculous to me?
Trying to get you to believe truth.

Why are you so adverse, that you even had to deny Christ was anointed
 
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