Comparing Calvinism, Arminianism, and Molinism

[civic]

"no one understands, no seeks after God"

"no one can come unless he us drawn".........

Which I already addressed here :

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as calvinists falsely claim, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

See the oxymorons with such a the calvinists systematic and presuppositions ?

Romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Several reasons why the doctrine of TD is not true

1-they suppressed the truth- one has to know the truth to suppress the truth
2-they knew God, He was self evident to them
3-God was understood to them
4-they exchanged the truth
5-they did not retain the knowledge of God, it was not worthwhile for them
6- Therefor from all the above facts God declares 3 times that He gave them over
7- God doesn't need to give anyone over who is already completely unable, enable, completely and totally depraved with no ability's to do otherwise

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

the Calvinist Barnes below .

Who hold the truth - Who "keep back," or "restrain" the truth. The word translated "hold" here, sometimes means to "maintain," to "keep," to "observe" 1 Corinthians 7:30; 2 Corinthians 6:12; but it also means to "hold back, to detain, to hinder." Luke 4:42, "the people sought him (Jesus), and came to him, and stayed him." (Greek, the same as here.) Plm 1:13, "whom I would have "retained" with me," etc.; 2 Thessalonians 2:6, "and now ye know what "withholdeth," etc. In this place it means also that they held back, or restrained the truth, by their wickedness.

The truth - The truth of God, in whatever way made known, and particularly, as the apostle goes on to say, what is made known by the light of nature. The truth pertaining to his perfections, his Law, etc. They hold it back. or restrain its influence

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

"no one understands". How does one understand? It is God who gives eyes to see and ears to hear. It is the Spirit that gives understanding to the things of God. 1 Corinthians 2

People are normally born with eyes and ears

1co 2 has to do with the deeper hidden things in the mind of God

The bible presupposes man has the ability to believe that which is revealed

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[Presby02]

People are normally born with eyes and ears

1co 2 has to do with the deeper hidden things in the mind of God

The bible presupposes man has the ability to believe that which is revealed

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Eyes and ears are metaphors for understanding.

You presuppose ability. The Bible does not.

The apostle never says all men have the ability to believe or that the ability to believe us inherent in fallen man.

 

[TomL]

Eyes and ears are metaphors for understanding.

You presuppose ability. The Bible does not.

The apostle never says all men have the ability to believe or that the ability to believe us inherent in fallen man.

Sorry the bible disputes your claim

People are normally born with eyes and ears

1co 2 has to do with the deeper hidden things in the mind of God

The bible presupposes man has the ability to believe that which is revealed

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

why do you fail to address scriptural rebuttal

 

[Presby02]

Sorry the bible disputes your claim

People are normally born with eyes and ears

1co 2 has to do with the deeper hidden things in the mind of God

The bible presupposes man has the ability to believe that which is revealed

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

which is why you never address scriptural rebuttal

Eyes to see and ears to hear us a metaphor for understanding.

Such as the gospel???

Sure, ability is necessary but that's a long way from everyone has that ability.

 

[TomL]

Eyes to see and ears to hear us a metaphor for understanding.

Such as the gospel???

Sure, ability is necessary but that's a long way from everyone has that ability.

again scripture presupposes the ability

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

in verses you will not address

 

[Presby02]

again scripture presupposes the ability

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

in verses you will not address

No, you presuppose ability. The Bible does not. Acts 28:26

 

[Rockson]

.

 

[Presby02]

Which I already addressed here :

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as calvinists falsely claim, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

See the oxymorons with such a the calvinists systematic and presuppositions ?

Romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Several reasons why the doctrine of TD is not true

1-they suppressed the truth- one has to know the truth to suppress the truth
2-they knew God, He was self evident to them
3-God was understood to them
4-they exchanged the truth
5-they did not retain the knowledge of God, it was not worthwhile for them
6- Therefor from all the above facts God declares 3 times that He gave them over
7- God doesn't need to give anyone over who is already completely unable, enable, completely and totally depraved with no ability's to do otherwise

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

the Calvinist Barnes below .

Who hold the truth - Who "keep back," or "restrain" the truth. The word translated "hold" here, sometimes means to "maintain," to "keep," to "observe" 1 Corinthians 7:30; 2 Corinthians 6:12; but it also means to "hold back, to detain, to hinder." Luke 4:42, "the people sought him (Jesus), and came to him, and stayed him." (Greek, the same as here.) Plm 1:13, "whom I would have "retained" with me," etc.; 2 Thessalonians 2:6, "and now ye know what "withholdeth," etc. In this place it means also that they held back, or restrained the truth, by their wickedness.

The truth - The truth of God, in whatever way made known, and particularly, as the apostle goes on to say, what is made known by the light of nature. The truth pertaining to his perfections, his Law, etc. They hold it back. or restrain its influence

hope this helps !!!

So "no one comes" means some actually do? "No one understands" means some actually do?

 

[TomL]

No, you presuppose ability. The Bible does not.

Sorry you deny scripture

again scripture presupposes the ability

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

in verses you will not address

 

[civic]

So "no one comes" means some actually do? "No one understands" means some actually do?

Jesus also said in John 12:32 when He is lifted up He will draw ( same word ) all men to Himself.

 

[Presby02]

Sorry you deny scripture

again scripture presupposes the ability

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

in verses you will not address

No, you presuppose ability. Scripture does not.

 

[Presby02]

Jesus also said in John 12 when He is lifted up He will draw ( same word ) all men to Himself.

All without exception? All whoever lived?

 

[civic]

All without exception? All whoever lived?

He said everyone, all people all mankind etc.....

 

[Presby02]

He said everyone, all people all mankind etc.....

Which is quite different then claiming He is drawing everyone who ever lived.

What about His drawing is successful with one person and unsuccessful with another?

 

[TomL]

So "no one comes" means some actually do? "No one understands" means some actually do?

finish the verse

John 6:44–45 (ESV) — 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

And Rom 3;10 quotes from Psalm 14

Psalm 14:1–7 (ESV) — 1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. 2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. 4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the LORD? 5 There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous. 6 You would shame the plans of the poor, but the LORD is his refuge. 7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

 

[TomL]

Which is quite different then claiming He is drawing everyone who ever lived.

What about His drawing is successful with one person and unsuccessful with another?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV) — 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

 

[Presby02]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV) — 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Ya and?

 

[TomL]

No, you presuppose ability. Scripture does not.

You ignored scripture

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[Presby02]

You ignored scripture

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

And you presuppose ability.