civic
Well-known member
And justice above love, mercy and forgiveness
Biblical Facts against PSA !
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GeneZ
Well-known member
Penal Substitution
First, an essential – and indeed, central – facet of any biblically
adequate atonement theory is penal substitution. Penal substitution in a theological context is the doctrine that God inflicted upon
Christ the suffering that we deserved as the punishment for our
sins, as a result of which we no longer deserve punishment. Notice
that this explication leaves open the question whether Christ was
punished for our sins. Some defenders of penal substitution recoil
at the thought that God punished His beloved Son for our sins.
Rather, God afflicted Christ with the suffering which, had it been
inflicted upon us, would have been our just desert and, hence,
punishment.
In other words, Christ was not punished, but he
endured the suffering that would have been our punishment had
it been inflicted on us.
We do not want to exclude by definition
such accounts as being penal substitutionary theories, since Christ
on such accounts suffers as our substitute and bears what would
have been our punishment, thereby freeing us from punishment.
Of course, this explication also permits the penal substitution
theorist to affirm that Christ was, indeed, punished in our place
and so bore the punishment for our sins.
No atonement theory which omits penal substitution can hope
to account adequately for the biblical data we have surveyed,
particularly Isaiah 53 and its NT employment. More than that,
penal substitution, if true, could not be a merely tangential facet of
an adequate atonement theory, for it would prove foundational to
so many other aspects of the atonement, such as redemption from
sin, satisfaction of divine justice, and the moral influence of
Christ’s example. So a multifaceted atonement theory must
include penal substitution at its center.
The doctrine of penal substitution, ever since the time of
Socinus, has faced formidable, and some would say insuperable,
philosophical challenges. In discussing these challenges, our aim is
to explore some of the various options open to the Christian
thinker.
A discussion of such challenges takes us into lively debates
over questions in the philosophy of law, particularly questions
about the theory of punishment. Unfortunately, most theologians,
and in fact most Christian philosophers, have little familiarity with
these debates.
The doctrine of penal substitution is usually dismissed by its critics in a single paragraph, even a single sentence, to
the effect that it would be unjust of God to punish an innocent
person for others’ sins, end of discussion. We need to go deeper.
One’s theory of punishment should offer both a definition of
punishment and a justification of punishment, aspects of the theory
of punishment that legal philosophers have teased apart only in
recent decades.
A definition of punishment will enable us to determine whether some act counts as punishment, while a justification
of punishment will help us to determine whether a punitive act is
permitted or even required, depending on one’s theory. Both of
these aspects of the theory of punishment are relevant to the
doctrine of penal substitution. Indeed, penal substitution is not
infrequently discussed in an entirely nontheological context. It will
be up to the Christian philosopher to make the theological
application.
A cautionary word is, however, in order at this point.
The punishment that is discussed by legal theorists and philosophers of law is almost invariably legal punishment in the context of
criminal law. Even when discussing penalties that are mandated by
civil law rather than criminal law, the framework is still legal. One is
discussing punishment as administered by the state as part of
a system of justice. While analogous to divine justice, human
systems of justice will also have features that are significantly
disanalogous to divine justice. To give an obvious example, the
state may be forced not to administer punishment as a result of lack
of prison space due to overcrowding and lack of resources. God is
evidently not so hampered. Still, legal theorists and philosophers of
law have poured an enormous amount of thought into the theory of
punishment, and so, given the widespread presence of forensic
and judicial motifs in the biblical texts pertinent to the atonement,
we may expect to learn a great deal from them.
WC.
Sin is like a terminal cancer that all men are born with.
Its because Adam gave us a universal physical weakness in all human bodies....
It guarantees malfunction of the human will. nd, also physical distortions in reactions and responses.
What Jesus did with PSA?
He did not have the innate weakness that all men have inherited from Adam.
For the seed of Mary? The Holy Spirit provided *perfect* male chromosomes to have Jesus's body conceived
to be born prefect as Adam had been created from the hand of God.
Jesus having perfect humanity volunteered to have the cancer of sin poured onto Himself while on the Cross.
It made Him painfully ill, and had Him reach the point where all men would die from sin.
But, because he was physically born without the innate weakness inherited from Adam?
He instead of dying forever? His body was able to, and produced, a powerful antibody that countered the cancer.
The results? All who believe in Him are now imparted this antibody for sin...
Believers receive this "imputed" antibody which guarantees that our new physical life will be forever.
So? He did have to bear our punishment. But, with His impeccability? It produced an opposite effect.
By causing an antibody to be manufactured by His righteousness.
We now all received a "divine vaccination" containing His righteousness (antibody) at the point of believing.
It guarantees that a new body will be ours forever in the transformation when the Resurrection takes place..
Grace and peace .......................
GeneZ
Well-known member
Justice is God's clearing house. All love, mercy and forgiveness given must come through His justice.
His justice determines everything according to the standard of His righteousness.
What his Righteousness approves of? Justice blesses.
What his Righteousness disapproves of? Justice must condemn.
God's Righteousness first gauges and then determines what will be the outcome of His justice.
God's Righteousness loves seeing His Word being alive in us.
grace and peace ............
civic
Well-known member
Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.
Let’s examine how this works in conjunction with Gods sovereignty and His love. God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect with God have been revealed plainly to us by God in His word. He has done this both through his word and his works. And God has sworn never to change for He is Immutable.
God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. The love of God has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign is found nowhere in the pages of scripture.
The fact that God can do something is not a justification for Him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that He can do is restricted by the standard that God values most which is His love. If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because He is sovereign. If God does it just because He is sovereign then He would not be God but something else.
What makes God, God is so intricately bound to his intent for doing things that if He were to do a thing just by virtue of the fact that He is sovereign and can do it rather than by virtue of the fact that it is loving? He would not be God as we know Him but something else. If sovereignty is what defines what makes up love in such a way that God doing anything is what defines love, then love has no meaning and can be anything and everything it is and opposes any time, which is ridiculous.
This below is from the Calvinist Theologian Abraham Kuyper on God is love:
“Before God created heaven and earth with all their inhabitants, the eternal Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit shone with unseen splendor in the divine Being. Love exists, not for the sake of the world, but for God's sake; and when the world came into existence, Love remained unchanged; and if every creature were to disappear, it would remain just as rich and glorious as ever. Love exists and works in the Eternal Being apart from the creature; and its radiation upon the, creature is but a feeble reflection of its being.
Love is not God, but God is Love; and He is sufficient to Himself to love absolutely and forever. He has no need of the creature, and the exercise of His Love did not begin with the creature whom He could love, but it flows and springs eternally in the Love-life of the Triune God. God is Love; its perfection, divine beauty, real dimensions, and holiness are not found in men, not even in the best of God's children, but scintillate only around the Throne of God.
The unity of Love with the Confession of the Trinity is the starting-point from which we proceed to base Love independently in God, absolutely independent of the creature or anything creaturely. This is not to make the divine Trinity a philosophic deduction from essential love. That is unlawful; if God had not revealed this mystery in His Word we should be totally ignorant of it. But since the Scripture puts the Triune Being before us as the Object of our adoration, and upon almost every page most highly exalts the mutual Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and delineates it as an Eternal Love, we know and plainly see that this holy Love may never be represented but as springing from the mutual love of the divine Persons.
Hence through the mystery of the Trinity, the Love which is in God and is God obtains its independent existence, apart from the creature, independent of the emotions of mind and heart; and it rises as a sun, with its own fire and rays, outside of man, in God, in whom it rests and from whom it radiates.
In this way we eradicate every comparison of the Love of God with our love. In this way the false mingling ceases. In principle we resist the reversing of positions whereby arrogant man had succeeded in copying from himself a so-called God of Love, and into silencing all adoration. In this way the soul returns to the blessed confession that God is Love, and the way of divine mercy and pity is opened whereby the brightness of that Sun can radiate in a human way, i.e., in a finite and imperfect manner to and in the human heart, to the praise of God. “From his book on the Work of the Holy Spirit Volume 3, Second Chapter Love- xviii Love in the Triune Being of God “
hope this helps !!!
GeneZ
Well-known member
God placing his enemies into the Lake of Fire is based upon His love.
Love for all those of His, whom His enemies would have wanted to torment and hurt for all eternity out of jealousy and rage.
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Give me Scripture reference where "Grace/Chen violates justice"
Think before you post.
Diserner
Well-known member
Yes, Justice first, and Jesus merits our Grace.
You have to understand some things about God, and some things about man.
We don't intuitively grasp the morality and purity of God's character, justice is literally called the foundation of his throne—there is nothing more fundamental than a foundation. Psalm 89:14. And where is mercy and truth? They go before him... that is, they are like God's proceeding entourage, these traits will pave the way to know God.
Human justice is not like God's justice—at all. We are full of idols and compromise. We steal a little stapler from work., we justify it by saying the work didn't need it anyway, no one will miss it, we worked extra hard for the company and they don't pay enough anyway. See, our daily lives are filled from beginning to end with rationalizations like these, and God says one small sin is pure evil, a violation of his character, and merits an eternity of suffering for it to recompense.
Without a system of Justice first, you can't even define what Grace is, Grace becomes merited by us instead of Jesus. I mean, if there is no standard, no thing to which we are owed or not owed, then nothing can really be a gift, because there are no definitions for exactly what we deserve or do not deserve. We have to know we deserve nothing to get "unmerited" favor, and that requires some kind of standard by which we judge what exactly we deserve or do not, a system of justice.
This is why Law precedes Gospel and is the only proper foundation for it; a healthy person has no desire for medicine, an upstanding citizen has no deserve to find a reprieve, unless we know we are sick criminals we look for no remedy, no solution.
I hope you can think and pray about these things, and see the compromises in your own heart towards God's holiness.
I know I have.
civic
Well-known member
Whom the Lord loves, He punishes. ( Hebrews 12:6 )
I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are righteous, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted me" make me suffer " . ( Psalm 119:75 )
The consequences of sin is death that results in eternal separation from God if one doesn't repent of their sin, turn to God and receive the gospel.y
God is loving in giving them a way of escape but they willingly and rebelliously reject God, are haters of God, love their sin and God is only giving them what they want. They don't want Him in this life so they are getting what they want in the life to come. The absence of God and to be with the one they served full time in this life- the god of this word, satan.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I always think before I post.......
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Is Justice a "gift"?
While we were what?
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
You and @dizerner are "backdooring" a meritorious Grace".
Diserner
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
yep thats a false gospel. see here as well on the atonement and adding to the gospel.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Such is demanded from your position.
Psa 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Do you see the last half of that verse? You're only seeing what you want to see. Mercy and Truth shall go.......
What is mercy?
That is preposterous. Are you a father? Is that how you treat your own? Did you follow the law and stone your children when they cursed you? Do you destroy your property when it doesn't do what you asked it to do?
God is patient and longsuffering which LEADS US TO REPENTANCE.....
Your view comes from legalism. Not Grace.
Law can not gift man the mind of God. It is impossible.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Jesus is worthy without us. Aseity!
It all begins with Grace. Not Justice. Grace is the cause. Justice is a means.
I see-no Scriptures on Chen violates justice-I will let the snide remark slide-
Ye shall do no avel bamishpat (perversion of justice);
Avshalom said moreover, Oh that I were made Shofet in the land, that every ish which hath any riv or mishpat might come unto me, and I would bring him justice!
Then said Achima’atz Ben Tzadok, Let me now run, and take news to HaMelech, how that Hashem hath in justice vindicated him of his oyevim.
And kol Yisroel heard of the mishpat (judgment) in which HaMelech had given verdict; and they feared HaMelech; for they saw that the chochmat Elohim was within him, to administer mishpat (justice).
I think 4 is enough to make you reconsider that Chen is NOT violating mishpat.
civic
Well-known member
Amen He is Glorious, we are not but someone thinks they share the same Glory as the Trinity. Its Christ is us - the Hope of Glory.
civic
Well-known member
Here is a refutation of the justice argument.
Not talking about PSA-MISHPAT- the DNA of YHVH-so you show me, from Scriptures'-that Grace violates God's justice.
An aside-I hold to PSA and are building my case-matter of fact, you Steelman my argument brother.
civic
Well-known member
Back to the FACTS derived from Scripture in the OP. This OP still stands irrefutable.
1-The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
2-The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
3-The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
4-The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT
Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord Jesus Christ His Beloved Son by God the Father . @dizerner .
So where was Jesus " punished " and " wrath " from Father to Son ???
Got Scripture ?
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
All men want justice until they are the one being judged......
This concept that exists in PSA often seeks to impart value to the sinner.... It seeks to make the sacrifice of Jesus Christ NECESSARY to God.
In other words.......God "HAD" to die for US because Christ greatly desired US......
Not that Christ didn't desire us. He did. Not that Christ is not Eternally valuable. He is. His value is unfathomable.....
However, when you start talking about "Justice".... the way you are..... then you are demanding value to sin by REQUIRING payment.
God owes us NOTHING.....
