Biblical Facts against PSA !

[Diserner]

All men want justice until they are the one being judged......

No, all men ARE sinners and DON'T want justice.

What they want is revenge... not justice.

This concept that exists in PSA often seeks to impart value to the sinner.... It seeks to make the sacrifice of Jesus Christ NECESSARY to God.

Non sequitur.

In other words.......God "HAD" to die for US because Christ greatly desired US......

Non sequitur.

Not that Christ didn't desire us. He did. Not that Christ is not Eternally valuable. He is. His value is unfathomable.....

If that's the case, then valuing sin maintains Christ's value, because sin devalues Christ.

However, when you start talking about "Justice".... the way you are..... then you are demanding value to sin by REQUIRING payment.

No, the point is just logically maintaining God's value.

Sin is not irrelevant to God—sin directly relates to God's value, it devalues him.

God owes us NOTHING.....

If only people were consistent with this, PSA would make sense.

 

[Johann]

All men want justice until they are the one being judged......

This concept that exists in PSA often seeks to impart value to the sinner.... It seeks to make the sacrifice of Jesus Christ NECESSARY to God.

In other words.......God "HAD" to die for US because Christ greatly desired US......

Not that Christ didn't desire us. He did. Not that Christ is not Eternally valuable. He is. His value is unfathomable.....

However, when you start talking about "Justice".... the way you are..... then you are demanding value to sin by REQUIRING payment.

God owes us NOTHING.....

Didn't say or imply that-you are misreading and misrepresenting what is posted-a recurring, normative tactic.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, all men ARE sinners and DON'T want justice.

What they want is revenge... not justice.

Nonsense. You're demanding Justice. You want Justice in your theology.

Non sequitur.
Non sequitur..

Nope. Fearfulness to deal with facts.

If that's the case, then valuing sin maintains Christ's value, because sin devalues Christ.

Sin didn't devalue Christ when Christ was "made sin for us".

No, the point is just logically maintaining God's value.

Sin is not irrelevant to God—sin directly relates to God's value, it devalues him.

Nonsense. The is no sin with lawgiver. His subject obey.

You're making Calvinist arguments here.....

If only people were consistent with this, PSA would make sense.

Consistency in denying Grace is NEVER a good thing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Didn't say or imply that-you are misreading and misrepresenting what is posted-a recurring, normative tactic.

I disagree and there is no need to get offended. As always. Believe what you want. You do not answer to me. We are simply holding differing views. You're not my servant.

 

[Diserner]

Nonsense. You're demanding Justice. You want Justice in your theology.

Absolutely not,

This is a work of God's grace, not my natural disposition.

Sin didn't devalue Christ when Christ was "made sin for us".

Of course it did, sin is sin.

Stop calling sin ok.

You are basically saying sin is no big deal, and justice doesn't matter.

That's why you dislike justice being the actual FOUNDATION of God's THRONE.

Should repent.

 

[GeneZ]

Whom the Lord loves, He punishes. ( Hebrews 12:6 )
I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are righteous, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted me" make me suffer " . ( Psalm 119:75 )

The consequences of sin is death that results in eternal separation from God if one doesn't repent of their sin, turn to God and receive the gospel.y

God is loving in giving them a way of escape but they willingly and rebelliously reject God, are haters of God, love their sin and God is only giving them what they want. They don't want Him in this life so they are getting what they want in the life to come. The absence of God and to be with the one they served full time in this life- the god of this word, satan.

hope this helps !!!

The Lake of Fire is not "discipline," as like when He punishes His own...
Don't confuse the two. Its condemnation and everlasting torments.

Why?

God placing his enemies into the Lake of Fire is based upon His love. His love for all those who are His own
whom His enemies would want to torment and hurt for all eternity out of jealousy.

The torments of the Lake of Fire has to be forever and ever. Not to just to "punish."
The torments needs to overwhelm them in their thinking. It has to cut them off from being able to interact with others.

For, when we are living in the glories of God? If unbelievers were allowed to be free?
We would always have be the source of insane jealousy and rage for all eternity!
There would be nothing but everlasting conflicts between God's own and Satan's own if they were not quarantined!
Keep in mind. Satan's original sin was jealously! And, Pilate knew that the Pharisees handed Jesus over out of envy.

Have you ever been treated cruelly by someone jealous of you? You have not lived until you have. Its a form of unreasonable insanity.

In effect.. the Lake of Fire is to be an asylum for the terminally insane.

You would never want those who reject Jesus Christ to free and around you when you will be walking in the glories of God.
Glories that He has provided for all who believe in Jesus Christ.

God knows this about them. He knows He must isolate them forever and made incapable to plan any escape.
The torments will disable the ability to think to scheme against those whom they hate.

Being tormented will serve as a constant reminder of what they are. For they themselves would crave to torment you
if they were able to see how gloriously happy you will be when in God's kingdom.

God knows what He is doing... The Lake of Fire is His righteous decision.

grace and peace .............

 

[GeneZ]

Didn't say or imply that-you are misreading and misrepresenting what is posted-a recurring, normative tactic.

Normative choice tactics = low-elaboration decision making that is based on others' opinions (e.g., a daughter buying the same detergents as her mother).

....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Absolutely not,

This is a work of God's grace, not my natural disposition.

How are Justice and Grace complementary?

Of course it did, sin is sin.

Really? You believe that our sin devalued/soiled Christ?

If it did, then what value is there in the offering?

Stop calling sin ok.

I'm not. You're the one saying it is okay because Christ HAD TO DIE FOR IT.......

Christ didn't have to die for us. You believe He did.

You are basically saying sin is no big deal, and justice doesn't matter.

That's why you dislike justice being the actual FOUNDATION of God's THRONE.

Should repent.

I dealt with your claim concerning God's Throne. Mercy comes forth from God's throne. You're not dealing with the entirety of what was stated on Psalm 68.

Justice does matter. We are all guilty. Freedom didn't come from our guilt. Freedom came from Grace.

The law came by Moses. Grace and Truth came from Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Normative choice tactics = low-elaboration decision making that is based on others' opinions (e.g., a daughter buying the same detergents as her mother).

....

That was written to me. If you're going to comment on things written to me, then you need to stop pretending you have me on ignore.

 

[civic]

The Lake of Fire is not "discipline," as like when He punishes His own...
Don't confuse the two. Its condemnation and everlasting torments.

Why?

God placing his enemies into the Lake of Fire is based upon His love. His love for all those who are His own
whom His enemies would want to torment and hurt for all eternity out of jealousy.

The torments of the Lake of Fire has to be forever and ever. Not to just to "punish."
The torments needs to overwhelm them in their thinking. It has to cut them off from being able to interact with others.

For, when we are living in the glories of God? If unbelievers were allowed to be free?
We would always have be the source of insane jealousy and rage for all eternity!
There would be nothing but everlasting conflicts between God's own and Satan's own if they were not quarantined!
Keep in mind. Satan's original sin was jealously! And, Pilate knew that the Pharisees handed Jesus over out of envy.

Have you ever been treated cruelly by someone jealous of you? You have not lived until you have. Its a form of unreasonable insanity.

In effect.. the Lake of Fire is to be an asylum for the terminally insane.

You would never want those who reject Jesus Christ to free and around you when you will be walking in the glories of God.
Glories that He has provided for all who believe in Jesus Christ.

God knows this about them. He knows He must isolate them forever and made incapable to plan any escape.
The torments will disable the ability to think to scheme against those whom they hate.

Being tormented will serve as a constant reminder of what they are. For they themselves would crave to torment you
if they were able to see how gloriously happy you will be when in God's kingdom.

God knows what He is doing... The Lake of Fire is His righteous decision.

grace and peace .............

We all were at one time hates of God and children of wrath. Read Ephesians 2. We all deserve eternal punishment. Sinners who repent are rewarded and sinners who do not are punished. It’s the same God who loves all sinners. John 3:16.

God sends no one to hell , man sends himself there for living their sin more that Christ. God just gives the wicked sinners what they all ready want, life without God for all eternity.

hope this helps !!!

 

[GeneZ]

We all were at one time hates of God and children of wrath. Read Ephesians 2. We all deserve eternal punishment. Sinners who repent are rewarded and sinners who do not are punished. It’s the same God who loves all sinners. John 3:16.

God sends no one to hell , man sends himself there for living their sin more that Christ. God just gives the wicked sinners what they all ready want, life without God for all eternity.

hope this helps !!!

God sends immutable EVIL to hell.

 

[civic]

God sends immutable EVIL to hell.

No we were all children of wrath before conversion. Eph 2.

man can change, satan and his angels are in that state permanently. man is in a state of being a child of wrath but it’s not permanent- faith in the gospel, Jesus removes Gods wrath from those born again.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Diserner]

God sends immutable EVIL to hell.

Yep.

We all have our WINDOW of opportunity.

For some of us....

That window is PAST.

 

[GeneZ]

No we were all children of wrath before conversion. Eph 2.

man can change, satan and his angels are in that state permanently. man is in a state of being a child of wrath but it’s not permanent- faith in the gospel, Jesus removes Gods wrath from those born again.

Hope this helps !!!

Yes, we were all children of wrath before conversion....

What's your point?

The fact that we had a change of heart?
Leaves those who remain choosing for evil to be without excuse!

God sends immutable EVIL to hell.

That's what He does!

He gives them the same chance.
And, they still choose for EVIL.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes, we were all children of wrath before conversion....

What's your point?

The fact that we had a change of heart?
Leaves those who remain choosing for evil to be without excuse!

God sends immutable EVIL to hell.

That's what He does!

He gives them the same chance.
And, they still choose for EVIL.

We were not only children of wrath, we were children of wrath against God.

Rom 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 

[GeneZ]

We were not only children of wrath, we were children of wrath against God.

Rom 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Yes.... That is true!

That is even more reason why those who prefer to remain with evil are to be left without excuse.

Don't you see?

Our ability to be made willing? We who were God's enemies?
Vindicates before the eyes of God's enemies that they have no excuse!

Add to that...

Anyone who is a proponent of "irresistible grace"?
He is aiding and abetting God's enemies.
For, he is leaving God's enemies to think they have an excuse for rejecting salvation.
That God made and left them unable to believe.

God gives His power of Grace to remove the influence of the flesh over our souls, so that our souls can choose what we wish.
For some who were given the same grace? They choose for evil while grace was making them free to choose!

That is why they go to the Lake of Fire.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

God gives His power of Grace to remove the influence of the flesh over our souls, so that our souls can choose what we wish.
For some who were given the same grace? They choose for evil while grace was making them free to choose!

That is why they go to the Lake of Fire.

I'm not totally convinced of that because I'm not totally convinced that grace and regeneration are the same thing. But there is scripture that (IMO) supports what you say:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

This implies that people have shared in the Holy Spirit (grace? regeneration?) but then fall away [edit] which would mean grace is not irresistible. I've even heard people refer to this text as proof that you can lose your salvation. But that position ignores the very next verse:

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.

He's talking about one set of people who shared in the Holy Spirit and rejected it as opposed to things that have to do with salvation. In other words, those people over there shared in the Holy Spirit and rejected it, but we are confident that's not about you because in your case it's about salvation.

 

[GeneZ]

I'm not totally convinced of that because I'm not totally convinced that grace and regeneration are the same thing. But there is scripture that (IMO) supports what you say:

As far as I know.. I never said that grace and regeneration are the same thing.

Before we go any further, please show me where you think I said that.

grace and peace ..............

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

As far as I know.. I never said that grace and regeneration are the same thing.

Before we go any further, please show me where you think I said that.

grace and peace ..............

You didn't say that. I was just mentioning that I'm not sure about it, myself. Is it possible that regeneration is irresistible grace? I don't know.

 

[GeneZ]

You didn't say that. I was just mentioning that I'm not sure about it, myself. Is it possible that regeneration is irresistible grace? I don't know.

Irresistible grace ultimately (and, illogically) means that God forces depraved people to believe.
And, that God "sovereignly" chooses whom He is going to force to get saved.

It makes no sense in light of the fact that He will condemn those whom He could have forced to get saved, but He refused to do it.

It was not well thought out. Yet, it makes certain kinds of people dogmatic about it.
Its like Muslims who are so dogmatic they will fly planes into the Twin Towers.

Religious dogmatism is the counterfeit of Holy Spirit conviction of the believer.
Its a counterfeit.