Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
I already stated it - the presence of the law creates in humans the urge to BREAK IT.
Biblical Facts against PSA !
- Thread starter civic
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Diserner
Well-known member
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
I certainly wasn't!!!Very true.
Almost like we weren't born with little halos.
civic
Well-known member
Let’s crucify PSA
@dizerner
The Problem with Penal Substitutionary Atonement
PSA says that Jesus died as punishment for our sins to satisfy the demands of God’s justice. We are sinners. We deserve punishment. Jesus took that punishment for us, even though he didn’t deserve it. God was satisfied, and now we can be reconciled to Him simply by believing in Jesus.So …
- God created humanity with free will …
- Knew humanity would use that free will to sin …
- Then allowed the torture and execution of his own son because we did what He created us to do …
- So that He didn’t have to punish us for doing what He created us to do …
- And we would then try to stop sinning, or doing what He created us to do.
- God is Jesus, Jesus is God.
- So God allowed Himself to be killed to reconcile us to Himself.
Most PSA adherents believe God is all-powerful. He might have snapped His fingers and said, “Okay, you’re all forgiven and reconciled to Me if you believe in Jesus and do what he said.” Instead, He deemed the torture and execution of his son, or Himself, necessary to help along our belief in Jesus, or Him.
If you don’t believe God is all-powerful, PSA still should not sit well with you. Instead of choosing to forgive and express that forgiveness through Jesus’ ministry and the Holy Spirit, God allows a violent scapegoating execution because you are such an awful person.
PSA portrays God as an authoritarian monster obsessed with doling out “just” punishments, not a being of love who shows mercy and grace.
PSA makes people feel like worthless sinners whom God can’t stand to look upon, not beloved sinners with whom God interacts and influences.
Photo by Kelly Sikkema on Unsplash
Atonement and the Resurrection
If we don’t believe in PSA, then what atonement theory should we believe in?I could make an argument for one or more atonement theories, but I’ve begun wondering if atonement theories focus on the wrong thing entirely.
Whatever atonement theory you prefer, all of them agree that Jesus cosmically defeated sin and death through his self-sacrifice.
But … if Jesus had not come back from the dead three days after dying on the cross … would Jesus have defeated sin and death?
Tim Mackie presents an interesting historical interpretation of the Crucifixion in The Bible Project Podcast.
When we take off our Christian hats and put on our historian hats, we can make a compelling argument that Jesus died on the cross as a natural consequence of threatening the political and religious leaders of his day.
Jesus, being a smart guy, knew that Roman-occupied Israel was a powder keg ready to blow. He could have easily foreseen the results of his challenges to authority and continued poking the bear so that his death could serve as a pressure-release valve.
Becoming a pressure-release valve that prevents Israel’s destruction at the hands of the Roman Empire may very well have been equivalent to salvation in Jesus’ mind. He was, after all, an observant first-century Jew who closely identified with the nation of Israel.
Tim Mackie adds that the human, political sacrifice simultaneously serves as a cosmic, spiritual atonement.
Indeed, most Christians would also point to specific Scriptures in which Jesus predicted his death, resurrection, or both. They’d say, “See, Jesus understood his death as a spiritual, cosmic atonement, not just a political repercussion.”
But … if Jesus had not come back from the dead … then Jesus would have been yet another failed, false Messiah in a long line of Jews claiming to be the long-awaited Messiah. All of Jesus’ teaching would have been reduced to the pedagogy of a wise man who was not the Messiah.
Nothing would have changed for Israel, for humanity, if the Resurrection hadn’t happened.
Photo by Zachary Olson on Unsplash
What if Atonement Comes from the Resurrection?
So I’ve begun wondering, what if the Cross does nothing and the Resurrection does everything?What if the Cross was simply the culmination of political and social upheaval? What if Jesus saw himself as a scapegoat who would release the energy building toward violent revolution against Rome?
And what if Jesus also believed — deeply trusted — that God would resurrect him and thereby prove God’s existence, the reality of an after-life, the reality of resurrection, and Jesus’ status as the “Son of Man,” the Messianic figure predicted in the Book of Daniel?
What if Jesus/God defeated sin and death through the resurrection, not the crucifixion? What if Jesus/God removed the obstacles of sin and death through proving their power over sin and death?
What if our atonement does not rest in some magical cosmic event at the moment of Jesus’ death? What if it lay in deeply trusting God to resurrect us and renew heaven and earth?
This Easter, we can crucify PSA and consider a view of atonement centered on the resurrection rather than the cross. Eric Sentell
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Below we read from the Gospels who killed and was responsible for the murder of Jesus. Do you see God the Father anywhere ?
Matthew 26-27
Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
67 Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68 and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”
27:27-44
Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. 30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.
There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews.
38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
John 19:1, 23-23
Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head.
When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24 “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.”
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,
“They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.”
So this is what the soldiers did.
Jesus said who was behind His murder
John 8:39-44
If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
hope this helps !!!
Matthew 26-27
Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
67 Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68 and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”
27:27-44
Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. 30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.
There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews.
38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
John 19:1, 23-23
Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head.
When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24 “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.”
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,
“They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.”
So this is what the soldiers did.
Jesus said who was behind His murder
John 8:39-44
If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Calvinists teach the Father KILLED the Son so I will quote a few famous ones for you proving what Calvinists actually believe and teach.
MacArthur in the gospel according to God says :
We must remember that sin did not kill Jesus; God did. The suffering servants death was nothing less than a punishment administered by God for the sins committed by others.
Piper says in the passion of the Christ :
The ultimate question to who killed Jesus is God did. Its a staggering thought . Jesus was His Son.
Grudem in his Systematic Theology :
As Jesus bore the guilt of our sin alone,God the Father, the Almighty Creator, the Lord of the universe, poured out on Jesus the fury of his wrath: Jesus became the object of the intense hatred of sin and vengeance against sin which God had patiently stored up since the beginning of the world.
Calvin says in his commentary on Gal 3:13 :
"He could not cease to be the object of his Father’s love, and yet he endured his wrath. For how could he reconcile the Father to us, if he had incurred his hatred and displeasure? We conclude, that he “did always those things that pleased” (John 8:29) his Father. Again, how would he have freed us from the wrath of God, if he had not transferred it from us to himself? Thus, “he was wounded for our transgressions,” (Isaiah 53:5,) and had to deal with God as an angry judge."
And we know Jesus and the Apostles did not teach the Father killed the Son but the Jews killed Him on the cross.
GeneZ
Well-known member
No one killed Jesus physically. He voluntarily breathed out his last breath and had his body die.
And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit." Matthew 27:50
He gave up his spirit (human spirit) after He had finished having the real death that saves.
Our sins while piercing Him cut him off from the Father. Cut off because of our sins. He was forsaken!
That is why he screamed out, "FATHER Why have you forsaken me!"
It was the "spiritual death of the humanity of Christ" that saved us.
He did not die physically to pay for our sins.
Keep in mind.. Salvation was complete *before* he died physically.
It was his spiritual death that saved us! That death was being cut off from the Father!
Note: before he died physically Jesus said that our salvation was completed.
Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled,
Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the
sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink,
Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:28-30
He voluntarily gave up his spirit!
No man took his physical life!
Luke 23:46
``And Jesus, shouting out with a loud voice, said,
"Father, into Your hands I deposit (paratithemi) my spirit!"
"Father, into Your hands I deposit (paratithemi) my spirit!"
One must wade first through the complexities caused by the presumptions of men to make it finally simple to understand.
grace and peace ..................
101G
Well-known member
101G must disagree with the physical death. for the life of the flesh is in the blood. and the crucifixion was the result of the loss of blood from the body.
101G.
civic
Well-known member
Death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.
Adam ate of the fruit and died.
Just like the Lord said he would die when he ate.
Yet, Adam physically ran away and hid in fear.
His was not a physical death.
For, Adam died "spiritually."
When our sins pierced Jesus on the Cross?
Unlike Adam, Jesus did not die spiritually for his own sins,
Jesus died spiritually because He made Himself one with our sins!
That is why it says.....
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him
we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21
During those few hours of being "forsaken" by the Father, Jesus kept on bearing one sin after another.
The trillions of sins of mankind were being poured upon him at hyper-lightening speed.
Then.... the very last sin was poured and then it was over. Jesus realizing that he was no longer forsaken
by the Father, declared to the Father..."IT IS FINISHED!"
But, those who suffer from knuckle dragging spirituality? They can only see the Cross as a physical death.
But, I ask?
If He had to die physically?
How could Jesus pronounce.. "IT IS FINISHED!" .. while he was yet physically alive?
If that were the case? He would had to said something more like.. "ITS ABOUT TO BE FINISHED!"
Then only after He was resurrected, declare ... "IT IS FINISHED!"
Animal sacrifices were teaching tools as symbolic rituals, that pointed to the reality that was yet to come.
grace and peace ...........
Diserner
Well-known member
This is an excellent point I've never heard an adequate answer to.
And I don't think one is forthcoming either.
Diserner
Well-known member
Death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.
This is kind of a "meme" repeated in the church a lot.
But I actually don't think it has good Scriptural support.
The wages of sin is not simply separating the soul from the body, that's not even a negative thing.
GeneZ
Well-known member
There was the "spiritual death" of Jesus...
That death took place while the sins of the world were being poured on his body.
Notice that he could not use the term "Father."
It switched to the generic term, "God."
For the sins of the world had cut Him off from His spiritual connection with the Father!
It was only after Jesus said..."IT IS FINISHED!"
After all man's sins were paid for?
Then! Did he once again use the name indicating relationship.. "Father."
grace and peace!
That death took place while the sins of the world were being poured on his body.
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46
Notice that he could not use the term "Father."
It switched to the generic term, "God."
For the sins of the world had cut Him off from His spiritual connection with the Father!
It was only after Jesus said..."IT IS FINISHED!"
After all man's sins were paid for?
Then! Did he once again use the name indicating relationship.. "Father."
Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”
When he had said this, he breathed his last." Luke 23:46
When he had said this, he breathed his last." Luke 23:46
grace and peace!
Johann
Well-known member
Ephesians 2:8–9 affirms this: “By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Salvation is by grace through faith , not as a result of good works, so that God alone gets the glory.
To get a handle on this text, you must understand five key concepts: “saved”; “grace”; “faith”; “gift” (as opposed to “works”); and, “boast” (or, glory).
1. To be saved means that the Lord Jesus Christ has rescued us from God’s wrath and judgment.
As we saw in 2:1-3, we were formerly dead in our trespasses and sins, and “were by nature children of wrath.” God’s wrath is not a popular topic in our day, but if you get rid of the concept, you may as well throw out your entire Bible, because it is throughout both the Old and New Testaments.
It reaches a climax in the Book of Revelation, which shows that God will pour out His wrath on this evil world, culminating in the final, eternal judgment of the lake of fire. Because of sin, we all are alienated from God in His holiness. All who are not saved are under God’s righteous judgment, objects of His wrath.
Theological liberals have always emphasized God’s love and denied His wrath. But in our day, this kind of watered down thinking is not only in liberal circles.
It is also popular among those who profess to be evangelicals. Last Sunday, the TV show, “60 Minutes,” did a segment on Joel Osteen, pastor of America’s largest church and author of the best seller, Your Best Life Now [Warner Faith]. Host Byron Pitts was surprised at the absence of any mention of God or Jesus Christ in the main points of Osteen’s latest book, To Become a Better You, which was just released last week.
Osteen’s response was, “That’s just my message. There is scripture in there that backs it all up. But I feel like, Byron, I’m called to help people…how do we walk out the Christian life? How do we live it? And these are principles that can help you. I mean, there’s a lot better people qualified to say, ‘Here’s a book that going to explain the scriptures to you.’ I don’t think that’s my gifting.” He got that right! But then why is he a pastor? How can you genuinely help lost people if you don’t point them to the cross of Christ?
Pitts got Michael Horton’s take on this. Horton is a professor of theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in Escondido, California. Horton rightly observed: “[Osteen’s] core message is God is nice, you’re nice, be nice….” (The above taken from, http://psalm8611.blogspot.com.)
The point is, if we are not under God’s wrath, then Jesus didn’t need to go to the cross and we don’t need to be saved. By going to the cross, Jesus paid the penalty that we are under because of our sin. Paul here says, “For by grace you have been saved….” Either you have been saved or you haven’t. There is no middle ground. Either Jesus has rescued you from God’s wrath or you are not saved. The next word to understand is, “grace.”
2. Salvation by grace means that we did absolutely nothing to earn or merit salvation.
Simply defined, grace is God’s unmerited favor. If you did anything to earn it or deserve it, it is not grace. If God owes it to you because you’re a pretty good person or you’ve tried to do the best you can, it is not grace. If God gives it to you because He foresaw that you would believe in Him of your own free will, it is not grace. Grace means that you get the opposite of what you deserve. You deserve God’s wrath because you have sinned against Him. Instead, He saves you by His grace.
Grace cuts directly against the grain of human thinking, because it is not fair. We value fairness. If someone does wrong, he should get what he has coming. If someone does right, he should be rewarded. But if someone does wrong and gets rewarded in spite of it, we protest, “That’s not fair!”
Take a guy who is a thief. He has stolen from hardworking people. On some occasions, he has hurt his victims or even killed them. But he shrugs it off and continues his life of crime. Finally, he is apprehended and convicted. On death row, he hears that God will forgive all of his sins if he will trust in Christ, even though he does not deserve it and he cannot make up for what he has done. At first, he can’t believe it. It sounds too good to be true. But then he does believe it. He trusts Christ to save him from eternal judgment. He dies and goes to spend eternity with God in heaven. That’s not fair!
Or, take the case of a guy who is very religious. He prays several times a day. He fasts twice a week. He gives ten percent of his income to charitable causes. He doesn’t swindle people out of money. He treats others fairly. He has been faithful in his marriage. He thinks that doing all of these things will commend himself to God. But, he dies and goes to hell. We cry, “That’s not fair!”
But, I didn’t make up these stories. The thief was hanging next to Jesus on the cross. Jesus paid his debt and the thief went to heaven that very day (Luke 23:39-43). The religious man was the Pharisee in Jesus’ parable who thought himself to be righteous (Luke 18:9-14). He was not justified from his sins, because he was trusting in his own good works to save him.
If God were fair, we’d all go to hell, because we all have sinned. God did not compromise His righteousness or justice to forgive us. His justice demands that the penalty be paid. Jesus paid the penalty on the cross for all that trust in Him. In that way, God can be both just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:26).
Someone has rightly described G-R-A-C-E as, “God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense.” We naturally resist God’s grace because it robs us of all our pride. But there is no other way of salvation. It is by grace . But we also need to understand, “faith.”
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τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι διὰ πίστεως. Emphasizing the means, as, before, the reality of the salvation. The root of our salvation lies in the declaration of God’s favour to us (cf. on Eph_1:6) and in the power of the consciousness of that favour over us. διὰ πίστεως, cf. Eph_1:13; Eph_1:15; Eph_1:19; faith on man’s side is the mouth or hand by which the salvation is appropriated, cf. Rom_3:24.
καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον. This clause is best taken as parenthetical. Even the faith which is the one element which we contribute to the total result is not self-originated. It is a gift of God. Cf. Donum est Dei diligere Deum. Ipse ut diligeretur dedit, qui non dilectus diligit (Council of Orange). He inspires us with love by loving us, and with faith by believing in us and showing Himself absolutely worthy of confidence.
CB
We need to thread carefully.
Johann
Well-known member
Not being facetious-you seem to know it all and in no need of correction-pride comes in many forms and manifestations.You can say that as I was a Calvinist for the first 40 plus years as a Christian
But in all seriousness I’m sure I know what Calvin taught more than 99% of the Calvinists online.
Pick any topic on this forum you want to discuss with me and I will gladly see who has the biblical and exegetical view and who has the one based upon personal opinion or eisegesis.
civic
Well-known member
I know Calvinism since I was one for 40 years and ate, drank, sleep it 24/7. I studied it daily.
Johann
Well-known member
Pick any topic on this forum you want to discuss with me and I will gladly see who has the biblical and exegetical view and who has the one based upon personal opinion or eisegesis.
Wasn't referring to Calvin brother-this is a rather bold statement.
civic
Well-known member
Pick any point in tulip and let’s discuss it. I know how to defend it and oppose it.
GeneZ
Well-known member
How does he give us our faith?
He does so by providing someone to tell us the Word of God that is needed to be taken by the hearer and believed.
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."
Romans 10:17
Johann
Well-known member
Pick any topic on this forum you want to discuss with me and I will gladly see who has the biblical and exegetical view and who has the one based upon personal opinion or eisegesis.
Wasn't referring to Calvin brother-this is a rather bold statement.
I was involved with Calvin for about two years so I can honestly say I don't know much about it.
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