BCF_WCF

I asked, " If not, please explain. "; I did not ask for directions.

Please explain the error in the OP.
The error in the OP is that neither the BCF nor the WCF say what you claim.

Here is an illustration:
What is wrong with the following:

”The articles of Remonstrances by Jacob Arminius state that God sends cute little angelic puppies to lick the faces of reprobates and draw them to Himself.”

Please explain the error in my understanding of the Articles of Remonstrances.
 
BCF/WCF:

Premise:
a) God decrees/ordains all that come to pass.

Conclusion:
b) God decrees/ordains man to sin.
c) Man can do nothing but that which God decrees/ordains.
d) God punishes man for doing that which is decreed/ordained by God.

Sounds about right? If not, please explain.
I will allow the BCF to speak for itself:

Chapter 3 – God’s Decree

1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1 He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.2 This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.3 In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4
1 Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18.
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5.
3 Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11.
4 Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3–5.

2. God knows everything that could happen under any given conditions.5 However, his decree of anything is not based on foreseeing it in the future or foreseeing that it would occur under such conditions.6
5 Acts 15:18.
6 Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

3. By God’s decree, and for the demonstration of his glory, some human beings and angels are predestined (or foreordained) to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of his glorious grace.8 Others are left to live in their sin, leading to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.9
7 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34.
8 Ephesians 1:5, 6.
9 Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4.

4. These predestined and foreordained angels and people are individually and unchangeably designated, and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or decreased.10
10 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18.

5. Those people who are predestined to life were chosen by God before the foundation of the world, according to his eternal and unchangeable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will. He chose them in Christ for eternal glory, purely as a result of his free grace and love,11 without anything else about them serving as a condition or cause moving him to do so.12
11 Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
12 Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12.

6. Just as God has appointed the elect to glory, so he has by the eternal and completely free purpose of his will foreordained all the means.13 Therefore, those who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ14 and effectually called to faith in Christ by his Spirit working at the appropriate time. They are justified, adopted, sanctified,15 and kept by his power through faith to salvation.16 No one but the elect are redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved.17
13 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
14 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10.
15 Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
16 1 Peter 1:5.
17 John 10:26; 17:9; 6:64.

7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care so that those heeding the will of God revealed in his Word and obeying him may be assured of their eternal election by the certainty of their effectual calling.18 In this way this doctrine will give reasons for praise,19 reverence, and admiration of God, as well as humility,20 diligence and rich comfort to all who sincerely obey the gospel.21
18 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10.
19 Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33.
20 Romans 11:5, 6, 20.
21 Luke 10:20.

What the BCF says is not what YOU say.
 
BCF/WCF:

Premise:
a) God decrees/ordains all that come to pass.

Conclusion:
b) God decrees/ordains man to sin.
c) Man can do nothing but that which God decrees/ordains.
d) God punishes man for doing that which is decreed/ordained by God.

Sounds about right? If not, please explain.
I edited the above to note the error … ERROR.

Your premise and conclusion are perfectly reasonable, unbiblical views, however, they are not Calvinism nor are they the views expressed in the Baptist Confession of Faith.
 
BCF/WCF:

Premise:
a) God decrees/ordains all that come to pass.

Conclusion:
b) God decrees/ordains man to sin.
c) Man can do nothing but that which God decrees/ordains.
d) God punishes man for doing that which is decreed/ordained by God.

Sounds about right? If not, please explain.
ImCo I disagree and explain it as follows:
A sinner gets to be a sinner ONLY by a free will decision to refuse to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and Saviour from the consequences of choosing to be sinful,
OR,
if they have put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour, they then rebelled against one or more of HIS commands to them.

Both of these decision are totally by free will, that is, no force was put on anyone to impel or coerce them to decide in either way especially not by any ordination of our choices!! We chose to follow HIM or reject HIM from our own deepest desire to live in one way or the other.

But once the free will decision to sin is made, a sinner will sin. There is no need to dictate that he sin, he sins automatically because he is now enslaved to sin.

But we know the sinful people of the kingdom (those who put their faith in HIM to become HIS elect then rebelled against a command) must live with the reprobate people of the evil one (those who never put any faith in HIM but who rebuked HIM as a liar and a false god from the beginning, the unforgivable sin), John 3:18, because if the judgement was called upon the reprobate, it would destroy the sinful but good seed too, Matt 13:27-30 therefore the judgement day was postponed until they could be redeemed, sanctified and trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, and as holy, free from liability in the judgement.

But what brings them to this holiness? It is having their eyes opened to their sinfulness and their need to repent. But just being randomly evil in your community only leavens you in evil, 1 Cor 5:6-8, Luke 12:1, Matt 23 and Matt 16:6, making you more even more intransigent to change.

So I suggest that the sins HE has ordained for us are the sins we would naturally do but which HE chooses for us to do to have the biggest impact upon our feelings of guilt and sorrow. That is, the sins HE has ordained due to our personal propensities and desires, are the sins HE works with us as the best and most efficient manner to bring us to repentance and return us to faith in HIM. HE doesn't ordain that we become sinners but that when we choose to sin HE ordains us to sin in a way that best opens our eyes to our need to seek for our Saviour and to repent.

We suffer punishments as harsh disciplines designed to rehabilitate us from sin, ie, train us in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, (or judgements with NO rehabilitative intent) for the free will choice we made to rebel against HIS righteousness and so became sinners in the first place and for being willing to do what HE has chosen for us to do to fit our needs.
 
I will allow the BCF to speak for itself:

Chapter 3 – God’s Decree

1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1 He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.2 This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.3 In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4
1 Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18.
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5.
3 Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11.
4 Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3–5.

2. God knows everything that could happen under any given conditions.5 However, his decree of anything is not based on foreseeing it in the future or foreseeing that it would occur under such conditions.6
5 Acts 15:18.
6 Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

3. By God’s decree, and for the demonstration of his glory, some human beings and angels are predestined (or foreordained) to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of his glorious grace.8 Others are left to live in their sin, leading to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.9
7 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34.
8 Ephesians 1:5, 6.
9 Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4.

4. These predestined and foreordained angels and people are individually and unchangeably designated, and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or decreased.10
10 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18.

5. Those people who are predestined to life were chosen by God before the foundation of the world, according to his eternal and unchangeable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will. He chose them in Christ for eternal glory, purely as a result of his free grace and love,11 without anything else about them serving as a condition or cause moving him to do so.12
11 Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
12 Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12.

6. Just as God has appointed the elect to glory, so he has by the eternal and completely free purpose of his will foreordained all the means.13 Therefore, those who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ14 and effectually called to faith in Christ by his Spirit working at the appropriate time. They are justified, adopted, sanctified,15 and kept by his power through faith to salvation.16 No one but the elect are redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved.17
13 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
14 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10.
15 Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
16 1 Peter 1:5.
17 John 10:26; 17:9; 6:64.

7. The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care so that those heeding the will of God revealed in his Word and obeying him may be assured of their eternal election by the certainty of their effectual calling.18 In this way this doctrine will give reasons for praise,19 reverence, and admiration of God, as well as humility,20 diligence and rich comfort to all who sincerely obey the gospel.21
18 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10.
19 Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33.
20 Romans 11:5, 6, 20.
21 Luke 10:20.

What the BCF says is not what YOU say.
Double speak God decreed everything/all things that come to pass predestining some to be saved and others damned yet this god is not culpable. An oxymoron. It goes hand in hand with the plea of mystery when the calvinist comes face to face with their contradictory doctrines.

In any courtroom the one who premeditates/ determines the crime is guilty of the crime. Only in calvinism does such double speak occur where the one who plans/determines and predestines the evil is not responsible for the evil

hope this helps !!!
 
Double speak God decreed everything/all things that come to pass predestining some to be saved and others damned yet this god is not culpable. An oxymoron. It goes hand in hand with the plea of mystery when the calvinist comes face to face with their contradictory doctrines.

In any courtroom the one who premeditates/ determines the crime is guilty of the crime. Only in calvinism does such double speak occur where the one who plans/determines and predestines the evil is not responsible for the evil

hope this helps !!!
Choose a sentence in the BCF that you believe is “double speak” and we can compare the BCF to the Verses that it claims support its words and see if Scripture supports or contradicts the confession. Then we can know whether your fist should be shaken at the men in England in the 1600’s or at the men that wrote the Bible they drew their confession from.
 
Is God guilty for the death of Job’s sons?
Do you accuse God of murder?
No calvinism accuses God of sending billions of people to hell that never had an opportunity to believe in Him since they were created for destruction in the first place and the god of calvinism never loved them. By definition that makes this god unloving , not loving which Scripture says that God is Love.

hope this helps !!!
 
No calvinism accuses God of sending billions of people to hell that never had an opportunity to believe in Him since they were created for destruction in the first place and the god of calvinism never loved them. By definition that makes this god unloving , not loving which Scripture says that God is Love.

hope this helps !!!
They had EVERY opportunity to believe, they all CHOSE another to. A 100% recidivism rate among the sons of Adam! All sin and choose to hide from the Light (just like Adam did). God doesn’t do that. People do that.

Romans 1:18-21
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

That is God giving EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION what they need to know that He is God and seek Him … and PEOPLE choosing to reject Him … not some, but ALL people. And it happened before the very first “Therefore God gave them up” (Romans 1:24).

So do not lay that at the feet of either Calvinism or God. PEOPLE made that choice with a “fallen” will … our “slave to sin” will … our “children of wrath” will. The will that God needs to save us FROM.

See, YOU do not honestly represent what Calvinism believes … the Baptist Confession and quote from Romans 1 both affirm a different belief than YOU claim WE hold.
 
No calvinism accuses God of sending billions of people to hell that never had an opportunity to believe in Him since they were created for destruction in the first place and the god of calvinism never loved them. By definition that makes this god unloving , not loving which Scripture says that God is Love.

hope this helps !!!
I was asking about SCRIPTURE and the story of Job, not about Calvinism.
You like to attack Calvinism, but avoid addressing actual scripture.
Would it help if I quoted the story to you?
 
They had EVERY opportunity to believe, they all CHOSE another to. A 100% recidivism rate among the sons of Adam! All sin and choose to hide from the Light (just like Adam did). God doesn’t do that. People do that.

Romans 1:18-21
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

That is God giving EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION what they need to know that He is God and seek Him … and PEOPLE choosing to reject Him … not some, but ALL people. And it happened before the very first “Therefore God gave them up” (Romans 1:24).

So do not lay that at the feet of either Calvinism or God. PEOPLE made that choice with a “fallen” will … our “slave to sin” will … our “children of wrath” will. The will that God needs to save us FROM.

See, YOU do not honestly represent what Calvinism believes … the Baptist Confession and quote from Romans 1 both affirm a different belief than YOU claim WE hold.
The non eject never had a chance since the elect cannot believe until god regenerates them first then causes them to believe.

hope this helps !!!
 
I was asking about SCRIPTURE and the story of Job, not about Calvinism.
You like to attack Calvinism, but avoid addressing actual scripture.
Would it help if I quoted the story to you?
I don’t care about your questions we are discussing Calvinism which you espouse. Your questions are a diversion to take this off topic when challenged with Calvinism.
 
Where is the error? I am not asking about views.
The error is that the premise and conclusion are not from either Calvinism or the Baptist Confession.
The very first line of the OP implies that both the premise and conclusions reflect what the BCF and WCF teach (but they do not). That is an error.

The entire topic is a discussion of YOUR beliefs (stated in the OP) and not the beliefs of the BCF/WCF.
 
The error is that the premise and conclusion are not from either Calvinism or the Baptist Confession.
The very first line of the OP implies that both the premise and conclusions reflect what the BCF and WCF teach (but they do not). That is an error.

The entire topic is a discussion of YOUR beliefs (stated in the OP) and not the beliefs of the BCF/WCF.
The WCF is double speak like I pointed out.
 
The non eject never had a chance since the elect cannot believe until god regenerates them first then causes them to believe.
I don’t care about your questions we are discussing Calvinism which you espouse.
  1. We are not really talking about Calvinism since the BCF does not state what the OP claims … thus we are discussing an OP that does not reflect the actual teachings of Particular Baptists.
  2. If you would like to discuss “Calvinism”, then sure:

Provide a quote from the BCF that affirms your claim: “The [reprobate] never had a chance since the elect cannot believe until God regenerates them first then causes them to believe.”

Let’s start by proving assertions about what Particular Baptists believe [as defined in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith].
 
The WCF is double speak like I pointed out.
  • Q. How many legs does a cow have?
  • A. Four.
  • Q. If you call a cow’s tail a “leg”, then how many legs does a cow have?
  • A. Five, I guess.
  • Q. No, four. Just because you call a cow’s tail a “leg”, doesn’t make it so!
… same with empty claims about Calvinism, the BCF or the WCF.
 
Back
Top Bottom