BCF_WCF

Canons of Dort( 1610) ) The Synod then developed the Canons which thoroughly rejected the Remonstrance of 1610 and scripturally set forth the Reformed doctrine on these debated points, now popularly called “the five points of Calvinism”: unconditional election, limited atonement, total depravity, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints . TULIP

hope this helps !!!
 
The disconnect for me is this: If God is not responsible for the death of Job’s sons (because of God’s actions in permitting and restraining Satan) then why is God responsible for the damnation of reprobates? God did not MAKE Satan kill Job’s children and God did not MAKE the reprobate sin and reject Christ … God ALLOWED both actions, but God did not force them.
You used the words that you're disconnected. With all due respect I'd still say there's a disconnect you're not getting. Job's sons being killed does not mean they weren't saved. The fate of the reprobates is very much totally different so you can't claim they're the same type of thing.
God FORED Job to live by forbidding Satan from killing him.
Well yes as far a Satan is concerned. But you can't show God FORCED Job to live. If he had wanted to do himself in there's nothing to show God wouldn't have allowed it.

God FORCED the Saints to live by “removing their heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh”.
So I'm sorry but you're FORCED idea based on my last lines I believe is set aside.
 
The doctrines came from Calvin, the doctrines of grace( tulip ) the 5 points of Calvinism.

Actually, the doctrines of grace originated in the Bible. They were documented to a degree by Augustine. Then they were documented again by Luther. Calvin gets more attention than he deserves by calling it Calvinism. J.I. Packer, IIRC, said Calvin is a mere footnote to Luther.
 
TULIP didn’t exist until 1913. It is an English Acronym and John Calvin was French living in Geneva in the 1500’s.
So you actually are claiming that TULIP didn't start with the Synods of Dort?
Now it is. But Calvin didn't come up with the acronym. I know that and I haven't even read Calvin.
Haven't read Calvin.... Most Calvinist haven't read Calvin.

Tell you what you don't know. Many translations of Calvin's work are suspect. Calvin was a young inexperienced boy when he wrote the vast majority of he wrote. He wasn't much older than Jesus was when Jesus confounded the scholars in the Temple at 12 years old. Which is how Calvin's followers treat Calvin. More important than Christ. Calvin was a novice that would have never been recognized among Israel for anything. Even Christ began His ministry at a much later date than Calvin. If it hadn't been for Luther's efforts....Calvin wouldn't have been anything more than a small footnote in history. He had an opportunity to place himself in the middle.
 
Actually, the doctrines of grace originated in the Bible. They were documented to a degree by Augustine. Then they were documented again by Luther. Calvin gets more attention than he deserves by calling it Calvinism. J.I. Packer, IIRC, said Calvin is a mere footnote to Luther.
Thats impossible since none of them are in the Bible, they are made up and have twisted scripture to fit the manmade doctrines.
 
Actually, the doctrines of grace originated in the Bible. They were documented to a degree by Augustine. Then they were documented again by Luther. Calvin gets more attention than he deserves by calling it Calvinism. J.I. Packer, IIRC, said Calvin is a mere footnote to Luther.
Total Depravity/ Inability

The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that man is totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation. Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel. Their teaching is that man cannot believe until he is born again. This new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. Those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ for salvation.

Concerning the statement that man cannot repent we find the Word of God stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If they should come, then they can come. God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God has granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life.

Concerning the statement that man cannot believe the gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, let the following Scriptures be studied— John 1:12; 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 6:40; 7:39; 12:36 and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." It is very clear that believing comes first and the new birth follows. The verses I have cited from the Gospel of John by no means exhausts the Scriptures which prove life through believing. If you will take Strong's Concordance and study the words believe, believed, and believeth, you will find much more. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." The Calvinist would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt believe." What utter disregard for the plain teaching of the Word of God!

Concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said, "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come. In Rev. 22:17, the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "WHOSOEVER WILL."

Beloved, God has been pleased "by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor. 1:21). Salvation is by believing, and if we tell the lost man that he cannot believe, we shut the gates of Heaven against him and find ourselves in the hideous company of him who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4).

Unconditional Election

The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part. This is called Unconditional Election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time, leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching, the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved.

The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning, He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7).

The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. Please read the following Scriptures— John 3:15,16; 4:14; 12:46; Acts 2:21, 10:43; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17. The word whosoever means "all, any, every, the whole." Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord's words in John 8:24, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." Other Scriptures have already been quoted under Total Inability to bear out the conditional requirement of believing in order to have salvation.

That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc." I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word world is used 77 times in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to take Strong's Concordance and look up each occurrence, then insert the words "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is.

You see, beloved, if God does not love all men, then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show forth an attribute that is superior to His. Yet, strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I'll believe John 3:16 as it stands, unaltered by the followers of John Calvin.

Limited Atonement

The Five-Point Calvinist states that Christ died on the cross for the sins of the Elect. To say that He died for the sins of the Non-Elect is not reasonable. Since, according to their system, God has chosen some to be saved and chosen the rest to be lost, He cannot require the death of Christ for those He does not plan to save anyhow. Therefore, the atonement of Christ is limited to the Elect only.

If you have accepted Total Inability and Unconditional Election it is necessary to limit the scope of Christ's death on Calvary. The only problem is that the Scriptures directly state that the death of Christ was for every man and is effective for the sinner the moment he believes. In 1 John 2:2 it is said that His death was a propitiation (satisfaction) not only for our sins, but for the sins of "the whole world." In Hebrews 2:9, it says that Christ tasted death for "every man." 1 Tim. 2:6 says that He gave Himself a ransom for "all." John the Baptist declared in John 1:29 that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the "world." In Isaiah 53:6, the Word of God states that "all" have gone astray (I would assume that refers to all men in the world) and that the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us "all." Since the gospel is for "whosoever will" and it consists of the good news that Christ died for sinners, I must believe that the atonement of Christ is not limited.

Not only is the atonement of Christ unlimited and offered to all men, but the Holy Spirit is presently working to convict the world (all men) of one sin. That sin is that Christ paid the penalty for their sins, but they do not believe on Him (John 16:8,9). God is "not willing that any should perish" (2 Peter 3:9) and it is said that He will "have all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). In Scripture we find the Father giving the Son to the world, the Son tasting death for every man, and the Holy Spirit convicting the world. Since God's work must be our work, we should part company with Five-Point Calvinism right here. The Bible knows nothing of a limited atonement that comes from the vain intellectual reasoning of men.

Irresistible Grace

Calvinists teach that all those whom God has chosen to be saved will be unable to resist the call of God. Since He has predetermined them to be saved, He effectually calls and regenerates them without any condition to be met on their part.

The Word of God teaches that "the grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11). Since God has provided salvation for all men and yet all do not come, that is proof enough that men do resist the grace of God. The Bible gives clear instances of men resisting the grace of God. Jesus stood over Jerusalem and said that He wanted to gather them unto Himself, but they "would not" (Matt. 23:37). When Stephen preached to the Jews, he said that regarding their attitude toward God's Word, they were stiff-necked and that they were resisting the Holy Spirit Who was calling them (Acts 7:51). The writer of Hebrews, when describing those "who draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10:39), said that though they were sanctified by the blood of Christ, yet they had "done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10:29). Here it is plain that the blood of Christ was available to them for salvation, but was refused. That the Spirit of God strives with sinners to bring them to repentance and faith is stated in Gen. 6:3. This verse also states that God will one day give man up when His grace is continually resisted.

Perseverance of the Saints

The last point in the Calvinist system of teaching is that those whom God has chosen to be saved will persevere to the end and will not finally and fully depart from the faith. The one who is truly born again is eternally secure in Christ and is never in danger of losing his salvation.

Most Fundamentalists would find little to disagree with in this statement, except to qualify the way God chooses men to be saved by stating that His election is according to His foreknowledge. The eternal security of the believer is a fundamental doctrine of Scripture. However, the false teaching set forth under the first four points of Calvinism bear their inevitable fruit here. There is a subtle exclusion here which is not seen in the stated position, but which eventually shows up in practice. In churches where these doctrines are taught, there are the following effects on those who come into the assembly:— The usage of the phrase "Perseverance of the Saints" gives the impression that the saints are doing something to keep themselves secure in their salvation. A more Scriptural phrase would seem to be "The Preservation of the Saints" (1 Thess. 5:23; Jude 1).Freeman

hope this helps !!!
 
Actually, the doctrines of grace originated in the Bible. They were documented to a degree by Augustine. Then they were documented again by Luther. Calvin gets more attention than he deserves by calling it Calvinism. J.I. Packer, IIRC, said Calvin is a mere footnote to Luther.
Lets just begin with the first error T.D.- Totla Depravity/Inability. They all stand or fall together as a system. Prove 1 point wrong and all are wrong.

Paul refutes it below

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as calvinists falsely claim, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

See the oxymorons with such a the calvinists systematic and presuppositions ?

Romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Several reasons why the doctrine of TD is not true

1-they suppressed the truth- one has to know the truth to suppress the truth
2-they knew God, He was self evident to them
3-God was understood to them
4-they exchanged the truth
5-they did not retain the knowledge of God, it was not worthwhile for them
6- Therefor from all the above facts God declares 3 times that He gave them over
7- God doesn't need to give anyone over who is already completely unable, enable, completely and totally depraved with no ability's to do otherwise

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

Jesus refutes it below

Jesus here refutes the doctrine of Total Depravity

Matthew 7:7-11
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

So much for mans innate evil that can give and do good things .

hope this helps !!!
 
Actually, the doctrines of grace originated in the Bible. They were documented to a degree by Augustine. Then they were documented again by Luther. Calvin gets more attention than he deserves by calling it Calvinism. J.I. Packer, IIRC, said Calvin is a mere footnote to Luther.
Jesus refutes irresistible grace below :

Matt 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matt 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,

Barnes:
the triumphant King and Lord of Zion wept! Amid all "his" prosperity, and all the acclamations of the multitude, the heart of the Redeemer of the world was turned from the tokens of rejoicing to the miseries about to come on a guilty people. Yet they "might" have been saved.

conclusion: Those whom He came to seek and save ( the lost ) rejected Him.

Todays Top 10 passages from both testaments refuting the false teaching called irresistible grace

1-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

2-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

3-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

4-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”

5-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”

6-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”

7-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”

8-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”

9-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”

10- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”

I will add several more for the icing on the cake :)

Galatians 5:4-7
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Hebrews 12:14-15
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.

Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!

Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.

Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!

Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process

Conclusion ; Gods grace is resistible

hope this helps !!!
 
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Paul refutes it below

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as calvinists falsely claim, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

See the oxymorons with such a the calvinists systematic and presuppositions ?
The proof that man can come to God is that men don't come to God? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
The proof that man can come to God is that men don't come to God? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Thanks for admitting free will is true. Amen

Most choose not to come, some choose to come from the same drawing from God. His will can be resisted. I've posted a plethora of bible passages this morning proving its true and refutes all of tulips teachings.
 
see posts 74 and 75 since you like lots of scripture.
I tend to like RELEVANT Scripture.
Will those scripture address man not doing something as proof that men can do that which they do not do?
Or are those scripture on "living a sinless life" and "flapping your arms to fly to heaven"?
 
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