Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

[praise_yeshua]

Well yes, one must believe the gospel, but even more, we must obey the gospel. There are far too many who refuse to even consider what it means to obey the gospel and think that doing anything to be saved is a work-salvation based gospel. That is just not true.

Believing the Gospel demands allegiance to God.

 

[civic]

Believing the Gospel demands allegiance to God.

ditto a call to be a follower of Christ, a disciple- counting the cost.

 

[civic]

Well yes, one must believe the gospel, but even more, we must obey the gospel. There are far too many who refuse to even consider what it means to obey the gospel and think that doing anything to be saved is a work-salvation based gospel. That is just not true.

Yes I believe they are 2 side of the same coin. We are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them ( Eph 2:10). James declares faith without works is a dead faith and Jesus taught believers will bear much fruit proving to be His disciples.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

It is "equal outcome" to him. Only those who believe the Gospel are saved. He isn't expressing the entirety of what He believes. He still believes that not just anyone can believe the Gospel. He still believes in regeneration before a man can believe the Gospel.

It is a endless circle for them.

Not everyone can believe the gospel, especially those who never hear it.

 

[Jim]

Yes I believe they are 2 side of the same coin. We are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them ( Eph 2:10). James declares faith without works is a dead faith and Jesus taught believers will bear much fruit proving to be His disciples.

hope this helps !!!

One can believe the gospel and yet not obey it. Both Paul (2 Thess 1:8) and Peter (1 Pet 4:17) warn against the failure to obey the gospel of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Can those whom God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Can they by their own freewill decide to believe the Truth and be saved ? 1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Which one is His will ? For them to believe a lie or to believe the truth and be saved ?

 

[TomL]

Can those whom God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Can they by their own freewill decide to believe the Truth and be saved ? 1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Which one is His will ? For them to believe a lie or to believe the truth and be saved ?

Try reading the text instead of your theology

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.

those who are sent a strong delusion are those who refuse to believe the truth

 

[brightfame52]

Try reading the text instead of your theology

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.

those who are sent a strong delusion are those who refuse to believe the truth

Can those whom God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Can they by their own freewill decide to believe the Truth and be saved ? 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Which one is His will ? For them to believe a lie or to believe the truth and be saved ?

 

[Richard]

What does 2 Thessalonians 2:11 mean?​

In this verse Paul explains what happens to those who refuse the truth during the tribulation. He references an impending spiritual rebellion, and the rise of a powerful spiritual figure, the man of lawlessness. To those who are not Christians, God sends a strong delusion, so they will succumb to the false teaching of the man of lawlessness. A rejection of truth always predisposes sinners to accept error (Romans 1:18–23). In this case, unbelievers choose to reject the truth but believe the lie that the man of lawlessness is the Messiah.

Paul's teaching in this passage raises an interesting question: how does the truth reach the lost in the tribulation? Based on his prior words, Christians will not be present to share the truth. They will be in heaven, having been raptured and taken from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). According to Scripture, however, God will raise up other witnesses to the truth in the tribulation. From the tribes of Israel, 144,000 Jews will believe on Jesus and evangelize the lost. Further, two faithful witnesses will preach for three and one-half years, authenticating their ministry by withholding rain from the earth and striking the earth with plagues. These witnesses will be martyred, but after three and one-half days, God will raise them from the dead.

The fact that so many living in the tribulation refuse to believe in spite of such powerful witnesses shows how hard the human heart can be.
Got?

 

[Watchman]

God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Free Will​

Sometimes Calvinists will say that Arminians have a small God. I have been told by Calvinists that the Calvinist God is “bigger” and therefore superior to my “little” Arminian God. Usually this claim is framed within the context of whether or not God can truly “save” anyone in an Arminian framework. Since the Arminian believes that God requires the genuine response of faith on the part of His creatures, then He is apparently quite small compared to the Calvinist God who just overpowers His creatures with His grace and makes sure that they are saved, etc. etc…you get the point.
I find this to be a terrible misunderstanding of the Arminian position, but that is the subject for a future post. For now I want to ask the Calvinist which God is bigger in a different context. Is a God who can only control His universe through cause and effect bigger or smaller than a God who can allow for true contingency in His creatures and still accomplish His will? Picirilli makes the point effectively in Grace, Faith, Free Will:

He then goes on to quote Arminus:

Arminians hold that God is wise enough to accomplish His will despite filling this world with creatures who are capable of free choice. We cannot explain how exactly God does this but are careful not to put limits on God’s omniscience and infinite ability. F. Leroy Forlines comments on the text that seems to best demonstrate God accomplishing His will through human free agents. Calvinists understand this passage through the lenses of their compatibilist assumptions, but Forlines well shows how these passages can harmonize with the libertarian understanding of free will and the Arminian understanding of divine foreknowledge:




I find this explanation far more satisfying then the “compatibilistic” approach of Calvinism. While there is mystery in how God can perfectly arrange an event like the crucifixion without violating the free will of His creatures, it is a true mystery on par with the Trinity, incarnation, and creation Ex Nihilo. It is not hard to accept given God’s unfathomable wisdom. Compatibilism, on the other hand, wants us to accept two completely contradictory assumptions under the umbrella of “mystery”. It tells us that God causes people to engage in sinful activity, and yet also tells us that God is not the author of sin. It tells us that the one who sins in accordance with God’s infallible decree is responsible for that sin while the God who ordained that sin is not. That is not a “mystery”. That is a flat contradiction and an abuse of normal human language.

It seems to me that when it comes to the scope and nature of God’s sovereignty, the Arminian God is far wiser than the God of Calvinism. A God who controls His universe like a puppet master is not that impressive to me. A God who can control His universe and accomplish His will without having to override or meticulously control the will of His creatures seems far more impressive and worthy of worship. I believe that Calvinism does not exalt God’s sovereignty but rather limits it by not properly incorporating God’s infinite wisdom into the equation. The Arminian view exalts God’s sovereignty within the balanced context of His omnipotence and omniscience. It also allows for divine mystery within its proper context and definition, without expecting us to accept disturbing contradictions. https://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/gods-sovereignty-and-mans-free-will/

The Calvinist view differs in that it can only comprehend God’s sovereignty within the context of cause and effect. If His creatures are free in a libertarian sense, then He is not sovereign. The only *freedom* in Calvinism is a freedom to do what God causes us to do. The Calvinist will say that we choose according to our desires, but our desires are ultimately determined by God, so in the end we are only free to do what God causes us to do.

Arminians also believe that we choose according to our greatest desire. We also believe that we are the ones who decide what that greatest desire will be. We ourselves give weight to the options presented to us and choose accordingly. We do not believe that motives and desires push us around, but rather that we determine what our greatest desire will be and which motive will ultimately become the strongest, etc. The freedom of Calvinism is more like the freedom of a falling rock to keep falling, or the freedom of a man hooked up to a respirator to keep breathing.

hope this helps !!!

For the sake of argument, let's say that man has "libertarian free will", but that God, somehow, manages to work all things according to the counsel of his own will anyway. This would mean that man's "libertarian free will" is incapable of changing any of God's intentions (in all things). In other words, "libertarian free will" would be entirely bound by God's intentions.

 

[Richard]

For the sake of argument, let's say that man has "libertarian free will", but that God, somehow, manages to work all things according to the counsel of his own will anyway. This would mean that man's "libertarian free will" is incapable of changing any of God's intentions (in all things). In other words, "libertarian free will" would be entirely bound by God's intentions.

Good to see you here Watchman.

Romans 8:28: “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”

Salvation is a free gift from God

EPHESIANS 2:8-9 NLT 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

We just need to accept His love and His free gift.

 

[TomL]

Can those whom God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Can they by their own freewill decide to believe the Truth and be saved ? 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Which one is His will ? For them to believe a lie or to believe the truth and be saved ?

Try reading the text instead of your theology

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.

those who are sent a strong delusion are those who refuse to believe the truth

 

[Watchman]

Good to see you here Watchman.

Thanks, Richard.

Romans 8:28: “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”


Salvation is a free gift from God


EPHESIANS 2:8-9 NLT 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.


We just need to accept His love and His free gift.

All true; however, the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; he also hates the light and will not come to it; so, what is the solution?

Jesus told Nicodemus the solution - we MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God (and we know that entry to God's kingdom is through faith in Jesus Christ), which means that being born again must precede, at least in logical order, faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Try reading the text instead of your theology

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.

those who are sent a strong delusion are those who refuse to believe the truth

Can those whom God sends a strong delusion to believe a lie 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Can they by their own freewill decide to believe the Truth and be saved ? 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Which one is His will ? For them to believe a lie or to believe the truth and be saved ?

 

[TomL]

Thanks, Richard.


All true; however, the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God; he also hates the light and will not come to it; so, what is the solution?

Jesus told Nicodemus the solution - we MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God (and we know that entry to God's kingdom is through faith in Jesus Christ), which means that being born again must precede, at least in logical order, faith in Jesus Christ.

Cart before the horse

Faith everywhere in the bible precedes life (regeneration)

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[Watchman]

Cart before the horse

Faith everywhere in the bible precedes life (regeneration)

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Faith precedes eternal life - yes; however, the new birth is not eternal life, and it precedes faith.

 

[TomL]

Faith precedes eternal life - yes; however, the new birth is not eternal life, and it precedes faith.

Faith precedes regeneration, which is the impartation of spiritual life

And BTW that spiritual life is eternal

 

[Watchman]

Faith precedes regeneration, which is the impartation of spiritual life

And BTW that spiritual life is eternal

Jesus told Nicodemus that we MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God. We also know that entry to the Kingdom of God is through faith in Jesus Christ, which means that being born again precedes (at least in logical order) faith in Jesus Christ.

The Bible is also clear that eternal life is given after we have faith in Jesus Christ, which means that being born again and being given eternal life are different things.

 

[TomL]

Jesus told Nicodemus that we MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God. We also know that entry to the Kingdom of God is through faith in Jesus Christ, which means that being born again precedes (at least in logical order) faith in Jesus Christ.

The Bible is also clear that eternal life is given after we have faith in Jesus Christ, which means that being born again and being given eternal life are different things.

To enter yes

The issue here however is the relation of faith and the new birth

New life (regeneration) is the new birth

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living)


We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

God regenerates those he has forgiven

foregiveness requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

[civic]

To enter yes

The issue here however is the relation of faith and the new birth

New life (regeneration) is the new birth

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (one comes to Jesus by faith)

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. (all agree quickening - being made alive speaks of regeneration when spoken of the physically living)


We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Of course unbelief does not profit so it must be through faith

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.through - dia instrument or means in the genitive case - Vines

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

God regenerates those he has forgiven

foregiveness requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Ditto