Are we Predestined?

[Kampioen]

Well, please make up my mind!
Does God know where you will be on Friday at 3PM (making it settled) or is the future open and unsettled (so God knows that He does not know where your free will will choose to go on Friday at 3 PM)?

It is both, because they mean different things.

God’s *knowledge* is *settled* ie God knows where you will be Friday at 3pm.

But the future is God's knowledge of what *will* happen, not something already existing out there to see and thus know, not even for God, and is thus *unsettled*. ....

Thus there is no contradiction.

And thus the *future* is non-existent ie open and *unsettled*. What God knows *will happen* what is *settled,* infallibly. God cannot err.

God created only the progressive present, not the future.

 

[atpollard]

But the future is God's knowledge of what *will* happen, not something already existing out there to see and thus know, not even for God, and is thus *unsettled*. ....

Jesus’ death suggests otherwise.
God’s will being done according to His plan.
(Not foreknown chance.)

 

[Kampioen]

Jesus’ death suggests otherwise.
God’s will being done according to His plan.
(Not foreknown chance.)

God foreknows His own libertarian decisions too, along with ours, and dice rolls.

God corrals libertarian free willers towards His goal according to His plan. God doesn't actuate our brain where we merely passively observe what is happening to us.

But the future doesn't already exist for God to learn what to foreknow. God didn't create/fill the future yet, neither predeterminately fill the future with now already preexisting people. The future is open and unsettled and uninhabited and non-existent. God created only the progressive present. The future is only God's inerrant conception, until it happens.

 

[TibiasDad]

So He is bound by what He forsees if He cannot change what He foresees.

No, he is bound by his own choice to give freedom of choice to man. He foresees what man will freely choose and cannot change that. Otherwise he would be, at least an ‘Indian giver’, or at worst, a liar!

And how could it never enter His mind if He is omniscient?

He couldn’t, which is why I said that it was a euphemism for ‘I would never intend anything like that’, or perhaps, ‘I would never think of approving something like
that .’

Its not about intent for it to happen. It never entered His mind to command such a thing to occur. Which the text specifically says.

I think it is all about his intent!

“5They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

God said “ I did not command (it) or mention (it), nor did it enter my mind” to have altars to Baal built. Notice the downward progression of his thought process: Command, mention, or think about. If there is no thought about it, there is no intent for it!

Doug

 

[Presby02]

No, he is bound by his own choice to give freedom of choice to man. He foresees what man will freely choose and cannot change that. Otherwise he would be, at least an ‘Indian giver’, or at worst, a liar!


He couldn’t, which is why I said that it was a euphemism for ‘I would never intend anything like that’, or perhaps, ‘I would never think of approving something like
that .’


I think it is all about his intent!

“5They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

God said “ I did not command (it) or mention (it), nor did it enter my mind” to have altars to Baal built. Notice the downward progression of his thought process: Command, mention, or think about. If there is no thought about it, there is no intent for it!

Doug

We are not talking about freedom of choice. We are talking about God being bound to what He forsees. Can He change what He forsees yes or no?Your repeated topic change attempt duly noted.

Exactly. He would have never commanded them to do that. He did know they would however if your going to proclaim Gods omniscience. Do you?

 

[civic]

Jesus’ death suggests otherwise.
God’s will being done according to His plan.
(Not foreknown chance.)

just because the most important event in human history was planned/prophecied/predestined does not mean everything in history was planned/prophecied/predestined.

next fallacy.

 

[Presby02]

just because the most event in human history was planned/prophecied/predestined does not mean everything in history was planned/prophecied/predestined.

next fallacy.

So God left some things to chance then??? It is nice of you to allow Him to plan, prophecie and predestine somethings though.

 

[civic]

So God left some things to chance then??? It is nice of you to allow Him to plan, prophecie and predestine somethings though.

His 2nd Coming is planned/predestined with many things that must occur prior to that great event.

I sure hope its in our lifetime. . He is the Blessed Hope-we look forward to the appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

 

[brightfame52]

Many today deny that some people are predestinated to Salvation. That some are predestinated to Salvation is clearly taught in scripture, particularly Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now understand, them He foreknew are a people who had not yet been born, and yet to be born as sinners dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1,5 ! Now these before they had any being save in the mind and purpose of God, had been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Gods Son, who is Heavenly and Spiritual, the Lord from heaven, in contrast to adam the earthy 1 Cor 15:47-49

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Remember they had been foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

In 1 Cor 15:49 Paul can write we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, because its been predestined by God from all eternity.

Now in order for sinners to be conformed to the image of Christ, it takes a work of the Spirit as seen here in 1 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So this is a Salvation work to be conformed to the image of Christ, it necessitates the New Birth, a Salvation Blessing !

This proves without a shadow of doubt that some have been predestinated to Salvation!

 

[civic]

Many today deny that some people are predestinated to Salvation. That some are predestinated to Salvation is clearly taught in scripture, particularly Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now understand, them He foreknew are a people who had not yet been born, and yet to be born as sinners dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1,5 ! Now these before they had any being save in the mind and purpose of God, had been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Gods Son, who is Heavenly and Spiritual, the Lord from heaven, in contrast to adam the earthy 1 Cor 15:47-49

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Remember they had been foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

In 1 Cor 15:49 Paul can write we shall also bear the image of the heavenly, because its been predestined by God from all eternity.

Now in order for sinners to be conformed to the image of Christ, it takes a work of the Spirit as seen here in 1 2 Cor 3:18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So this is a Salvation work to be conformed to the image of Christ, it necessitates the New Birth, a Salvation Blessing !

This proves without a shadow of doubt that some have been predestinated to Salvation!

you missed this- so many who claim to be predestined look nothing like Jesus, act nothing like Jesus and love sin and are unforgiving, uncompassionate, unmerciful etc.....

to be conformed to the image of his Son,

 

[brightfame52]

you missed this- so many who claim to be predestined look nothing like Jesus, act nothing like Jesus and love sin.

to be conformed to the image of his Son,

See vs 29

 

[civic]

See vs 29

you missed this part which is the why/purpose of being predestined.

to be conformed to the image of his Son,


most who claim to be predestined look nothing like Jesus is their actions, day to day life.

 

[TibiasDad]

We are not talking about freedom of choice. We are talking about God being bound to what He forsees. Can He change what He forsees yes or no?Your repeated topic change attempt duly noted.

Happy Thanksgiving!

He is not bound by “what he foresees” he is bound by his choice to give man freedom of choice. He will not change that as a general rule. (God could intervene but won’t.)

Exactly. He would have never commanded them to do that. He did know they would however if your going to proclaim Gods omniscience. Do you?

Of course he did!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Remember they had been foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

Wrong! Those whom he foreknew would believe, he predestined them to be conformed to the laws mage of his son.

You must believe before you can be conformed.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

Happy Thanksgiving!

He is not bound by “what he foresees” he is bound by his choice to give man freedom of choice. He will not change that as a general rule. (God could intervene but won’t.)


Of course he did!

Doug

Can he change what He foresees?

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to you and yours!

 

[TibiasDad]

Can he change what He foresees?

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to you and yours!

He won’t change what he foresees!

Doug

 

[TedT]

You’re avoiding the question: if God has predetermined every act of man, how can something happen that ‘never entered his mind’?

OK, my thoughts on predetermination also do not line up with
orthodoxy nor Calvinism...

Romans 8:29-30: This passage speaks of God foreknowing and predestining those He calls, justifies, and glorifies, to be conformed to the image of His Son. Iow, it only applies to HIS elect, chosen to salvation if they should ever sin because by thier free will they put thier faith in HIS proclamation to everyone, Col 1:23, to be our GOD and ouronly savioiur form the effects and enslavement to sin.


Ephesians 1:5: This verse states that God predestined believers for adoption as His children through Jesus Christ, according to His will. It only applies to HIS elect children gone astray into rebellon, not to the Satanic reprobate who rebuked HIM as a liar and a false god because they are not HIS children: Deuteronomy 32:5 They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
OR
their blemish is that they are not HIS children.
OR
[Because] They have dealt corruptly with him, [they are] not his children, [it is] their blemish. [They are] a perverse and crooked generation.

Only HIS children who have gone astray into sin, HIS sheep who have gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, live lives predestined to lead them back to their Savior, to return to HIM, 1 Peter 2:25...

Isaiah 46:9-10: In this passage, God declares that He makes known the end from the beginning and that His purpose will stand. This refers to HIS proclamation of HIS Deity and the gospel, Col 1:23, and to the possibility of our election to become HIS heavenly bride or our condemnation to be eternally cast out into the outer darkness in accordance to our free will decisions to accept these claims by putting our faith in them as truth and in HIM as our GOD or to rebuke them as lies, putting their faith in HIM being a liar.

While I believe it is probable that those reprobate weeds that must live with the good seed to encourage them to become holy are probably determined in their actions to have the proper effect on the good seed, Matt 27-30, I see no reason for HIM to determine all individual lives in the pagan nations as they will adequately fulfill exposing the depths of their evil on their own in accord with their enslavement to evil. Being enslaved to evil with no free will does not imply that they lack creativity in their choice of how they will express their evil...

 

[Presby02]

He won’t change what he foresees!

Doug

Then He is bound to it. If He forsees unbelievers dying and suffering for an eternity there is nothing He can do.

 

[Presby02]

His 2nd Coming is planned/predestined with many things that must occur prior to that great event.

I sure hope its in our lifetime. . He is the Blessed Hope-we look forward to the appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

Its nice of you to allow Him to plan and predetermine the second coming. Where do we find the rules for what He can and cannot plan and predetermine?

 

[TedT]

So God left some things to chance then???

No, HE left some things to the sinful wills of the reprobate to expose the depths of their evil to encourage HIS sinful elect to move toward holiness faster and thus speed up the coming of the terrible day of judgement: 2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. Our holiness and godliness speeds up the coming of the day of judgement, and is based upon our interaction with the evil illegitimate non-children and their evil ways, as implied in Matt 13:27-30.