Are we Predestined?

[TedT]

God does not infringe on the choice that our first parents made. The effects of that choice puts us where we are now.

Doug

So HE manifested HIS perfect love for us by putting us under the effects of their choice to sin before we were even created....but that does not infringe our free will, sigh.

 

[TibiasDad]

So HE manifested HIS perfect love for us by putting us under the effects of their choice to sin before we were even created....

God did not put humanity under the effects of sin, the first human did. Think of it as a flaw in the spiritual DNA. Every person born of Adam inherits that flaw that separates us from God. We will all sin at some point, we are all self-centered creatures from birth and that will show itself in time.

but that does not infringe our free will, sigh.

How are we infringed? God does not make us do anything; we do whatever we want to do. He doesn’t ultimately infringe upon our freedom, but allows us to accept or reject his authority and desires for us.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So HE manifested HIS perfect love for us by putting us under the effects of their choice to sin before we were even created....but that does not infringe our free will, sigh.

P.s. He manifested his perfect love in spite of Adam and Eve’s choices.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

The future is open and unsettled because it is libertarian and incalculable and doesn't exist yet to know. Only the (progressive) present exists because God didn't create the future yet.

Your objection only works if foreknowledge requires a substantive future that already exists.
It doesn’t.
God just knows, because God cannot be wrong.

God exists for no exterior reason at all, ie self-exists. So does His exhaustive (simple) foreknowledge.

If its open and unsettled the God is not omniscient.

 

[Presby02]

No, God is only bound by his own character and being. God created free beings and he does not infringe upon that freedom, though he knows (by means beyond our understanding) what we will do with our freedom.

Doug

If God has not determined the future, yet forsees it, then He is bound by His foreknowledge. Can He change what He forsees? If He coukd why not change it so everyone is saved as you love to claim He so wants to do but does not.

God does not have to infringe on your freedom to determine what you do with your freedom. Acts 4:27, 28 is a great example.

 

[civic]

If God has not determined the future, yet forsees it, then He is bound by His foreknowledge. Can He change what He forsees? If He coukd why not change it so everyone is saved as you love to claim He so wants to do but does not.

God does not have to infringe on your freedom to determine what you do with your freedom. Acts 4:27, 28 is a great example.

God says there are things that happen which have never crossed His mind.

 

[atpollard]

God says there are things that happen which have never crossed His mind.

What do you think that means?
God is not really OMNISCIENT???? OMNIPOTENT????
[We should probably look at the verse.]

 

[Kampioen]

The future is open and unsettled because it is libertarian and incalculable and doesn't exist yet to know. Only the (progressive) present exists because God didn't create the future yet.

Your objection only works if foreknowledge requires a substantive future that already exists.
It doesn’t.
God just knows, because God cannot be wrong.

God exists for no exterior reason at all, ie self-exists. So does His exhaustive (simple) foreknowledge.

If its open and unsettled the God is not omniscient.

No. Because the future is open and unsettled and God knows that. God is still omniscient.

But He knows what it will be.

 

[atpollard]

No. Because the future is open and unsettled and God knows that. God is still omniscient.

But He knows what it will be.

Ummm ... the future is open and unsettled and I know that. So I am also omniscient?

 

[civic]

Ummm ... the future is open and unsettled and I know that. So I am also omniscient?

Except you do not know where I will be on Friday at 3pm whereas God does.