civic
Active Member
In fact they often here me talk with our @Administrator on the phone on a weekly basis as does his wife and lifegroup hear about our discussions.
And what about the other Calvinists not agreeing with you in your devotional group?Yep they know like I said we talk about tulip. I’m discipling a Calvinist seminary student right now. My son in law a Calvinist pastor soon to be missionary I challenge all the time and he is rethinking things now. My daughter his wife is a. Calvinist , I raised her as one.
Any more questions?
They read this forum , we discuss it often.
That what you think I'm doing? Hide behind a computer on the Internet?I don’t hide behind a computer on the internet. My family and friends know what I do here so does my church and its leaders.
When Gods Sovereignty gets talked about from a reformed position I’ll correct them with scripture and let the group know about mans free will and that God dies not meticulously co trip out thoughts , actions and deeds.And what about the other Calvinists not agreeing with you in your devotional group?
I’m saying I don’t and neither does our administrator we have accountability groups and people in our lives.That what you think I'm doing? Hide behind a computer on the Internet?
So do I-albeit not as much as you.I’m saying I don’t and neither does our administrator we have accountability groups and people in our lives.
You need to grow up and quit being immature.It looks like you want to make this a personal thing since I strongly disagree with you-do you want to make it personal?
Something you want to discuss? Don't look at my profile picture-that's not who I am.You need to grow up and quit being immature.
At times, they were worse.....The reformers persecuted believers who disagreed with them just like the Catholics did.
You need to learn your church history
Maybe you should read Fox’s book of martyrs for a detailed account.
Next
DittoAt times, they were worse.....
It was all about power over men. Still is.
I've never said that to you and you have me on ignore. So much for consistency. @JohannSomething you want to discuss? Don't look at my profile picture-that's not who I am.
I don't want to get drawn into a confrontational, aggressive dialogue with you-or any other member.I've never said that to you and you have me on ignore. So much for consistency. @Johann
So you believe Jesus had all the sin of the world imputed to him and thus was worthy of all the wrath God could pour out on him. That the father not being able to look upon sin turned his back on Christ and cursed him?And I hold to PSA-so call me a heretic-burn me at the stake.
So you believe Jesus had all the sin of the world imputed to him and thus was worthy of all the wrath God could pour out on him. That the father not being able to look upon sin turned his back on Christ and cursed him?
The question wasBiblical Basis for Penal Substitutionary Atonement:
- Isaiah 53:4-6 (KJV)
- "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
- Context: This passage, often referred to as the "Suffering Servant" passage, describes how the Servant of the Lord takes upon Himself the punishment for the sins of others, suggesting a substitutionary aspect to His suffering.
- Romans 3:25-26 (KJV)
- "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
- Context: The term "propitiation" (Greek: ἱλαστήριον, hilasterion) refers to a sacrifice that bears God's wrath and turns it to favor. Christ's death satisfies the demands of justice, allowing God to be both just and the justifier.
- 2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
- "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
- Context: This verse implies a substitution where Christ, though sinless, was made to be sin (or a sin offering) on behalf of believers so that they might become righteous.
- 1 Peter 2:24 (KJV)
- "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
- Context: Christ bore the sins of believers in His body on the cross, suggesting He took the punishment meant for sinners.
- Galatians 3:13 (KJV)
- "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
- Context: Christ became a curse for us, bearing the curse of the law on behalf of sinners.
Understanding Penal Substitutionary Atonement:
- Penal: Refers to the penalty or punishment due for sin.
- Substitutionary: Indicates that Christ took the place of sinners.
- Atonement: Means reconciliation between God and humanity, achieved through Christ's sacrifice.
Theological Implications:
- Justice and Mercy: PSA emphasizes that God's justice requires a penalty for sin, but His mercy provides a substitute in Christ.
- Sacrificial System: The Old Testament sacrificial system prefigures this concept, where animals bore the sins of the people (Leviticus 16).
- New Covenant: PSA is central to the New Testament understanding of the atonement, where Christ's death fulfills the righteous requirements of the law on behalf of sinners.
Criticisms and Alternatives:
While PSA is widely accepted in many evangelical and Reformed circles, it is not without its critics. Some argue it portrays God as vengeful or overlooks other aspects of atonement, such as:
- Christus Victor: Christ's death defeated the powers of sin and death.
- Moral Influence Theory: Christ's death demonstrates God's love and inspires moral improvement.
- Ransom Theory: Christ's death paid a ransom to free humanity from the bondage of sin.
Conclusion:
Penal substitutionary atonement is deeply rooted in biblical texts and has been a significant part of Christian theology, particularly within Protestant traditions. It emphasizes that Christ bore the punishment for sin, satisfying God's justice and enabling reconciliation with God. However, it is one of several models of atonement that together provide a fuller understanding of the multifaceted work of Christ on the cross.
The concept of Jesus bearing the sins of the world and experiencing the full wrath of God, including the idea that God the Father turned His back on Christ, is derived from various biblical passages. Here’s a detailed biblical analysis of this concept with relevant Scripture references:The question was
So you believe Jesus had all the sin of the world imputed to him and thus was worthy of all the wrath God could pour out on him. That the father not being able to look upon sin turned his back on Christ and cursed him?
Where is your proof for double imputation
Where is your proof God punished a now deserving of punishment, Jesus christ
Where is your proof that God exhausted his wrath on Christ
That Christ was forsaken on the cross
And if you want to talk about God being propitiated
Explain why God's motive for the cross is love not wrath
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
explain how it is God was in fact favorable disposed towards us
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
And for that matter how he forsook him when he was in him
Evasion as expectedThe question was
So you believe Jesus had all the sin of the world imputed to him and thus was worthy of all the wrath God could pour out on him. That the father not being able to look upon sin turned his back on Christ and cursed him?
Where is your proof for double imputation
Where is your proof God punished a now deserving of punishment, Jesus christ
Where is your proof that God exhausted his wrath on Christ
That Christ was forsaken on the cross
And if you want to talk about God being propitiated
Explain why God's motive for the cross is love not wrath
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
explain how it is God was in fact favorable disposed towards us
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
And for that matter how he forsook him when he was in him
Already answered and I have no idea where he get "double imputation" from-but you guys are the spiritual giants.Evasion as expected
Sorry not answered and if you understood Penal substitution you would know what the double imputation isAlready answered and I have no idea where he get "double imputation" from-but you guys are the spiritual giants.