civic
Active Member
In fact they often here me talk with our @Administrator on the phone on a weekly basis as does his wife and lifegroup hear about our discussions.
Anti-PSA—explain to me how the Blood of Jesus is connected to forgiving.
- Thread starter Dizerner
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Johann
Active Member
And what about the other Calvinists not agreeing with you in your devotional group?
Johann
Active Member
That what you think I'm doing? Hide behind a computer on the Internet?
civic
Active Member
When Gods Sovereignty gets talked about from a reformed position I’ll correct them with scripture and let the group know about mans free will and that God dies not meticulously co trip out thoughts , actions and deeds.
civic
Active Member
I’m saying I don’t and neither does our administrator we have accountability groups and people in our lives.
Johann
Active Member
So do I-albeit not as much as you.
koberstein
Active Member
You need to grow up and quit being immature.
Johann
Active Member
Something you want to discuss? Don't look at my profile picture-that's not who I am.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Ditto
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I've never said that to you and you have me on ignore. So much for consistency. @Johann
Johann
Active Member
I don't want to get drawn into a confrontational, aggressive dialogue with you-or any other member.
If it is not done in a Christlike manner I'm not interested. @praise_yeshua
So you believe Jesus had all the sin of the world imputed to him and thus was worthy of all the wrath God could pour out on him. That the father not being able to look upon sin turned his back on Christ and cursed him?
Johann
Active Member
Biblical Basis for Penal Substitutionary Atonement:
- Isaiah 53:4-6 (KJV)
- "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
- Context: This passage, often referred to as the "Suffering Servant" passage, describes how the Servant of the Lord takes upon Himself the punishment for the sins of others, suggesting a substitutionary aspect to His suffering.
- "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
- Romans 3:25-26 (KJV)
- "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
- Context: The term "propitiation" (Greek: ἱλαστήριον, hilasterion) refers to a sacrifice that bears God's wrath and turns it to favor. Christ's death satisfies the demands of justice, allowing God to be both just and the justifier.
- "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
- 2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
- "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
- Context: This verse implies a substitution where Christ, though sinless, was made to be sin (or a sin offering) on behalf of believers so that they might become righteous.
- "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
- 1 Peter 2:24 (KJV)
- "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
- Context: Christ bore the sins of believers in His body on the cross, suggesting He took the punishment meant for sinners.
- "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
- Galatians 3:13 (KJV)
- "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
- Context: Christ became a curse for us, bearing the curse of the law on behalf of sinners.
- "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
Understanding Penal Substitutionary Atonement:
- Penal: Refers to the penalty or punishment due for sin.
- Substitutionary: Indicates that Christ took the place of sinners.
- Atonement: Means reconciliation between God and humanity, achieved through Christ's sacrifice.
Theological Implications:
- Justice and Mercy: PSA emphasizes that God's justice requires a penalty for sin, but His mercy provides a substitute in Christ.
- Sacrificial System: The Old Testament sacrificial system prefigures this concept, where animals bore the sins of the people (Leviticus 16).
- New Covenant: PSA is central to the New Testament understanding of the atonement, where Christ's death fulfills the righteous requirements of the law on behalf of sinners.
Criticisms and Alternatives:
While PSA is widely accepted in many evangelical and Reformed circles, it is not without its critics. Some argue it portrays God as vengeful or overlooks other aspects of atonement, such as:- Christus Victor: Christ's death defeated the powers of sin and death.
- Moral Influence Theory: Christ's death demonstrates God's love and inspires moral improvement.
- Ransom Theory: Christ's death paid a ransom to free humanity from the bondage of sin.
Conclusion:
Penal substitutionary atonement is deeply rooted in biblical texts and has been a significant part of Christian theology, particularly within Protestant traditions. It emphasizes that Christ bore the punishment for sin, satisfying God's justice and enabling reconciliation with God. However, it is one of several models of atonement that together provide a fuller understanding of the multifaceted work of Christ on the cross.### Propitiation in the Septuagint (LXX)
The Greek term ἱλαστήριον (hilasterion) in the Septuagint often translates Hebrew terms related to atonement and the mercy seat (kapporet). Here are a few key examples:
1. **Exodus 25:17-22 (LXX)**
- **LXX:** "καὶ ποιήσεις ἱλαστήριον καθαροῦ χρυσοῦ" (Exodus 25:17)
- **Translation:** "And you shall make a mercy seat (ἱλαστήριον) of pure gold."
- **Context:** The mercy seat (kapporet) was the cover of the Ark of the Covenant, where the high priest would sprinkle the blood of the sin offering on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). It was considered the place where God's presence dwelt and where atonement was made for Israel.
2. **Leviticus 16:14-15 (LXX)**
- **LXX:** "καὶ λήψεται τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ μόσχου καὶ ῥανεῖ τῷ δακτύλῳ ἐπὶ τὸ ἱλαστήριον πρὸς ἀνατολάς" (Leviticus 16:14)
- **Translation:** "And he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat (ἱλαστήριον) on the east side."
- **Context:** On Yom Kippur, the high priest would sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the ἱλαστήριον to atone for the sins of the people.
### Propitiation in Ancient Rabbinical Writings
Ancient rabbinical writings, such as the Mishnah and Talmud, also provide insights into the concept of atonement, though they do not use the term ἱλαστήριον, as these texts are in Hebrew and Aramaic. The focus is on the rituals and significance of sacrifices, particularly those associated with Yom Kippur.
1. **Mishnah Yoma 5:1**
- **Text:** "He would sprinkle once above and seven times below, and would count: one, one and one, one and two, one and three..."
- **Context:** Describes the high priest's sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat and in front of it on Yom Kippur, emphasizing the meticulous nature of the atonement process.
2. **Talmud Bavli, Yoma 86a**
- **Text:** "Great is repentance, for it brings healing to the world, as it is stated: 'I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely' (Hosea 14:4)."
- **Context:** Discusses the power of repentance and atonement in bringing about reconciliation with God, reflecting the underlying principle of turning away God's wrath and restoring favor.
### New Testament Connection
In the New Testament, the term ἱλαστήριον is explicitly used in key theological passages to describe Christ's atoning work:
1. **Romans 3:25 (KJV)**
- **Text:** "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (ἱλαστήριον) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
- **Context:** Paul explains that Jesus is the ἱλαστήριον, the means by which God's wrath is satisfied and believers are justified.
2. **Hebrews 9:5 (KJV)**
- **Text:** "And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat (ἱλαστήριον); of which we cannot now speak particularly."
- **Context:** The writer of Hebrews refers to the mercy seat in the context of explaining the greater, perfect sacrifice of Christ compared to the Old Testament sacrificial system.
### Conclusion
The concept of propitiation as ἱλαστήριον ties together the Old Testament sacrificial system, especially the Yom Kippur rituals, with the New Testament understanding of Christ's atoning work. In the Septuagint, ἱλαστήριον primarily refers to the mercy seat, the place of atonement. Ancient rabbinical writings elaborate on the detailed rituals and the theological significance of these sacrifices. The New Testament authors draw on this rich background to present Christ as the ultimate ἱλαστήριον, whose sacrificial death fully satisfies God's justice and reconciles believers to God.
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The question was
So you believe Jesus had all the sin of the world imputed to him and thus was worthy of all the wrath God could pour out on him. That the father not being able to look upon sin turned his back on Christ and cursed him?
Where is your proof for double imputation
Where is your proof God punished a now deserving of punishment, Jesus christ
Where is your proof that God exhausted his wrath on Christ
That Christ was forsaken on the cross
And if you want to talk about God being propitiated
Explain why God's motive for the cross is love not wrath
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
explain how it is God was in fact favorable disposed towards us
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
And for that matter how he forsook him when he was in him
Johann
Active Member
The concept of Jesus bearing the sins of the world and experiencing the full wrath of God, including the idea that God the Father turned His back on Christ, is derived from various biblical passages. Here’s a detailed biblical analysis of this concept with relevant Scripture references:
Imputation of Sin to Jesus
Isaiah 53:4-6
Verses: "Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Context: This prophecy about the suffering servant describes how Jesus took on the sins and the punishment of humanity.
2 Corinthians 5:21
Verse: "For he made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Context: Paul explains that Jesus, who was sinless, was made to be sin on our behalf, signifying the imputation of our sins to Him.
1 Peter 2:24
Verse: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
Context: Peter echoes Isaiah’s prophecy, emphasizing that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross.
Experiencing God's Wrath
Romans 3:25-26
Verses: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
Context: Jesus is presented as a propitiation, meaning His death satisfied the wrath of God against sin.
Galatians 3:13
Verse: "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
Context: Paul describes Jesus becoming a curse for us, reflecting the curse and wrath due to us for our sin.
The Father Turning His Back on Jesus
Psalm 22:1
Verse: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"
Context: This Psalm, quoted by Jesus on the cross (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34), expresses a sense of abandonment, which many interpret as reflecting Jesus’ experience of separation from the Father due to bearing the sins of the world.
Matthew 27:46
Verse: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Context: Jesus quotes Psalm 22:1, expressing a profound sense of forsakenness that many believe signifies the Father turning His face away due to the sin Jesus bore.
Theological Interpretation
Imputation and Wrath: The Scriptures clearly state that Jesus bore our sins (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Peter 2:24) and experienced the wrath of God as a propitiation for those sins (Romans 3:25-26). This implies that Jesus faced the full penalty and judgment due for sin.
Separation: Jesus’ cry of forsakenness on the cross (Matthew 27:46; Psalm 22:1) indicates a moment of intense spiritual agony, often interpreted as a separation from the Father, not in essence or nature, but in relational fellowship, as He bore the sin of the world.
Conclusion
Biblically, the doctrine that Jesus had the sins of the world imputed to Him, thereby bearing the wrath of God, and that the Father turned His back on Him can be supported by these key passages. Jesus’ cry of forsakenness reflects the depth of His suffering and the sense of separation He experienced while bearing the world’s sins. However, it is essential to understand that this separation was relational, due to sin, and not a severance of the divine unity between the Father and the Son.
civic
Active Member
Evasion as expected
Johann
Active Member
Already answered and I have no idea where he get "double imputation" from-but you guys are the spiritual giants.
Sorry not answered and if you understood Penal substitution you would know what the double imputation is
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