If you deny PSA, you have become an OT Jew.

dizerner

Well-known member
If God can forgive without "wrath" and "punishment," the death of Jesus was in no way necessary nor related to forgiveness.

If you deny Jesus' suffered the punishment of your sins, you don't believe the death of Jesus holds any logical connection or significance to removing sins.

You might think Jesus was really special and even "God," but Jesus no longer pays for your sins—you are under the OT Law.


Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing,
and insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29 NKJ)



 
As an FYI I don’t deny punishment or wrath as I’ve stated previously many times . The question is who was culpable. As I’ve pointed out from Jesus own teaching and the Apostles it was by the hands of wicked men who tortured , killed him


We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take


conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins. and There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.
 
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"If you deny PSA, you have become an OT Jew."​


Respectfully, how can every Christian prior to the REFORMATION be a Jew?
[I don't think History is on your side, here.]

It is not the revealed WHAT of what happened TO Jesus or what happened to us BECAUSE OF Jesus that men debate ... it is the invisible, unrevealed in scripture, WHY (known only to God) that men have offered various speculations on. The only "problem" arises when people refuse to see that THEIR speculation is just that ... a speculation. There is no verse that speaks of the WRATH OF THE FATHER BEING POURED OUT ON THE SON TO APPEASE GOD'S JUSTICE. It is one possible explanation of WHY cobbled together from parts of verses and held together with the glue of speculation (just like every other Atonement Theory).

That our sins were Atoned by Christ on the Cross is fact.
HOW and WHY are at least part speculation.
Humility would serve all of us well when presenting our speculations on the mysteries of God as "facts".


"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." - Deuteronomy 29:29 [NKJV]
 
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Respectfully, how can every Christian prior to the REFORMATION be a Jew?
[I don't think History is on your side, here.]

It is not the revealed WHAT of what happened TO Jesus or what happened to us BECAUSE OF Jesus that men debate ... it is the invisible, unrevealed in scripture, WHY (known only to God) that men have offered various speculations on. The only "problem" arrizes when people refuse to se that THEIR speculation is just that ... a speculation. There is no verse that speaks of the WRATH OF THE FATHER BEING POURED OUT ON THE SON TO APPEASE GOD'S JUSTICE. It is one possible explanation of WHY cobbled together from parts of verses and held to gether with the glue of speculation (just like every other Atonement Theory).

That our sins were Atoned by Christ on the Cross is fact.
HOW and WHY are at least part speculation.
Humility would serve all of us well when presenting our speculations on the mysteries of God as "facts".


"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." - Deuteronomy 29:29 [NKJV]
Amen you are 100% correct there is no single verse in all of scripture that speaks of God the Fathers wrath ( anger, vengeance. retribution )being poured out upon the Son to appease Justice.

Its based upon speculation. See below

 
Within the hebrews were esaus, those coming out the adversary...
who never came from God and hate God,
the same evil club who invaded eden.

they infiltrate academics, bible colleges, translation, denominations, etc.
with their dogmas and pharisee distortions...
just as they did in the OT.... causing the vision to be sealed,
and the curse....

their goal is that souls never meet God..
but only listen to their twisting of His words...
why?
to prevent us from going Home
(which will be the End of them.)
 
Jesus Got a Big Discount

All have sinned and fallen short,
And what do we deserve?

Flames of fire burning hot?
The wrath of God is served?!

Hey, we have a Savior, nice!
But did he really pay the price?

I just don't like the way it feels,
if Jesus gets the selfsame deal!

God said my sins had pissed him off,
I'd feel his wrath and burn in hell!

So justice is on sale, Rollback!
A moment of not feeling well!

Just the semblance on the Cross,
no wrath against our sin!

The Father smiled at the cost,
no real punishment was in.

How dare you split the Triune God,
just paying for my soul!

We'll uphold his holiness,
by letting it all go!

And so my Savior it turns out,
Got quite a big discount!

I'd earned the wrath of God,
But it never was poured out!


The Law brings wrath — Romans 3.
"My God, My God, why does it feel like you've forsaken me?" — Not Jesus.
 
conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins. and There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men
Of course the actual inflicting of wounds came from evil and wicked men. I doubt that there is a single Christian who says otherwise. Second causes.

It does not separate the first cause (God) from the second cause. God did not force those who killed Jesus to kill Him. They 100% wanted to. and are responsible for it. But it is also what God intended for the sake of redemption. You completely leave out God's justice against sin. He put forth His Son to meet that justice, and Jesus willingly took the necessary punishment to do so, ON Himself. God's wrath against sin was inflicted on the Son but not towards Him. Jesus wasn't being punished by God for His own sin, He had none, but the sins of others were meeting their just punishment on Him instead of on them.

You are just splitting hairs but when you do that you actually deny direct scriptures that you quote to support your theory. (#1-8 of the post.) And you present a doctrine that is so confusing and contradictory as to mislead babes entirely.
 
Of course the actual inflicting of wounds came from evil and wicked men. I doubt that there is a single Christian who says otherwise. Second causes.

It does not separate the first cause (God) from the second cause. God did not force those who killed Jesus to kill Him. They 100% wanted to. and are responsible for it. But it is also what God intended for the sake of redemption. You completely leave out God's justice against sin. He put forth His Son to meet that justice, and Jesus willingly took the necessary punishment to do so, ON Himself. God's wrath against sin was inflicted on the Son but not towards Him. Jesus wasn't being punished by God for His own sin, He had none, but the sins of others were meeting their just punishment on Him instead of on them.

You are just splitting hairs but when you do that you actually deny direct scriptures that you quote to support your theory. (#1-8 of the post.) And you present a doctrine that is so confusing and contradictory as to mislead babes entirely.
Quote scripture where Jesus took the Fathers justice . What the Bible says is that the Just died for the unjust . The Holy for the unholy, the Righteous for the sinner.

You like every other Calvinist assume justice was needed by God.
 
You like every other Calvinist assume justice was needed by God.
PSA is not Calvinist vs Arminian. It is embraced by the majority of BOTH sides (today). It is more of a HISTORIC evolution of thought on WHY behind the facts of the Atonement.

(It just STARTED roughly around the Reformation from the earlier RANSOM theory - which had different problems).
 
Amen you are 100% correct there is no single verse in all of scripture that speaks of God the Fathers wrath ( anger, vengeance. retribution )being poured out upon the Son to appease Justice.
Romans 5:6-11 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person---though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die---but God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, nush ore shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Col 2:13-15 And you, who were dead in yur tresspasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This He set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him.

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Is 53

Surely you do not believe that God simply granted forgiveness because Jesus died on the cross, without that death having actually done something regarding sin. To think so is to make the entire process of redemption through the death of Christ unnecessary. And if it is doing something necessary concerning sin it can only be satisfying His just decree that the soul who sins shall die.
 
Quote scripture where Jesus took the Fathers justice
Quote scripture where it says God is triune.
What the Bible says is that the Just died for the unjust . The Holy for the unholy, the Righteous for the sinner.
If the Just died for the unjust then justice was satisfied.
You like every other Calvinist assume justice was needed by God.
The word Calvinist is not a valid argument and also it is not a doctrine exclusive to Calvinism. Is God just? Is justice one of His attributes? Is He ever unjust? To say that God does not need justice is to say God is not God. Why exactly do you think Jesus's death was necessary?
 
  • [Matthew 27:46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LEMA SABAKTANEI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
  • [Mark 15:34] At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LEMA SABAKTANEI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

Did God the Father FORSAKE God the son?
Nope.



PSALM 22
For the music director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.​
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my help are the words of my groaning.​
2 My God, I cry out by day, but You do not answer;​
And by night, but I have no rest.​
3 Yet You are holy,​
You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.​
4 In You our fathers trusted;​
They trusted and You rescued them.​
5 To You they cried out and they fled to safety;​
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.​
6 But I am a worm and not a person,
A disgrace of mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me deride me;
They sneer, they shake their heads, saying,
8 “Turn him over to the LORD; let Him save him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open their mouths wide at me,
As a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery,
And my tongue clings to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And they cast lots for my clothing.
19 But You, LORD, do not be far away;
You who are my help, hurry to my assistance.
20 Save my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;​
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.​
22 I will proclaim Your name to my brothers;​
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.​
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor scorned the suffering of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
May your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will kneel before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 A posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

Was Jesus calling their attention to the fact that the Messianic Prophesy of King David in Psalm 22 was unfolding before their very eyes in His suffering?

You betcha.

Suffering at the moment ... with glory coming!
 
  • [Matthew 27:46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LEMA SABAKTANEI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
  • [Mark 15:34] At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LEMA SABAKTANEI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"

Did God the Father FORSAKE God the son?
Nope.



PSALM 22
For the music director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.​
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my help are the words of my groaning.​
2 My God, I cry out by day, but You do not answer;​
And by night, but I have no rest.​
3 Yet You are holy,​
You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.​
4 In You our fathers trusted;​
They trusted and You rescued them.​
5 To You they cried out and they fled to safety;​
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.​
6 But I am a worm and not a person,
A disgrace of mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me deride me;
They sneer, they shake their heads, saying,
8 “Turn him over to the LORD; let Him save him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open their mouths wide at me,
As a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery,
And my tongue clings to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And they cast lots for my clothing.
19 But You, LORD, do not be far away;
You who are my help, hurry to my assistance.
20 Save my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;​
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.​
22 I will proclaim Your name to my brothers;​
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.​
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor scorned the suffering of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
May your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will kneel before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 A posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

Was Jesus calling their attention to the fact that the Messianic Prophesy of King David in Psalm 22 was unfolding before their very eyes in His suffering?

You betcha.

Suffering at the moment ... with glory coming!
Exactly it was a proclamation He was the Messiah when He quoted that passage .
 
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