Johann
Active Member
Well done-none of us know all the truth and we CAN err-not intentionally, of course.
Anti-PSA—explain to me how the Blood of Jesus is connected to forgiving.
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
civic
Active Member
That’s doesn’t mean we cannot call out error when we see it does it ?
Johann
Active Member
Go right ahead-this is what you are doing and you have honed the craft to perfection.
civic
Active Member
I’m following the Lords commands
And remember when one is humble and teachable not proud they allow iron to sharper iron
2 Tim 3:16-17
Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Titus 1:13
This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sternly, so that they will be sound in the faith
Titus 2:15
Speak these things as you encourage and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you
Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Johann
Active Member
Forgetting context and not even bothering to quote context @civic. Shall I do it for you or will you do it for me?
Context of 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Verses:
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17, ESV)
Context Overview
**1. Author and Audience:
The Apostle Paul wrote the letter of 2 Timothy to Timothy, a younger pastor and Paul's protégé.
Paul wrote this letter while imprisoned in Rome, anticipating his impending execution (2 Timothy 4:6-8).
**2. Purpose of the Letter:
Paul encourages Timothy to remain faithful to his calling and to the teachings he has received.
He warns Timothy about false teachers and the moral decay that will characterize the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-9).
Paul provides personal instructions and encouragement to Timothy to endure hardship, preach the word, and fulfill his ministry (2 Timothy 4:1-5).
Immediate Context
1. Warning Against Godlessness (2 Timothy 3:1-9):
Paul describes the perilous times in the last days, characterized by selfishness, greed, and various forms of wickedness.
He contrasts these behaviors with the life of godliness and warns Timothy to avoid such people.
2. Paul’s Example and Timothy’s Heritage (2 Timothy 3:10-15):
Paul reminds Timothy of his own example of faithfulness, persecution, and endurance.
He encourages Timothy to continue in what he has learned and firmly believed, referencing the sacred writings (Scriptures) Timothy has known from childhood, which are able to make him wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Verses 16-17 in Detail
**1. Divine Origin of Scripture:
"All Scripture is breathed out by God" emphasizes that the Scriptures are divinely inspired. The Greek term "theopneustos" (θεόπνευστος) literally means "God-breathed," indicating that Scripture is the product of God's Spirit.
**2. Purpose and Usefulness of Scripture:
"Profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness":
Teaching: Scripture provides the foundation for sound doctrine and truth.
Reproof: It exposes and corrects false beliefs and behaviors.
Correction: It guides believers back to the right path when they have gone astray.
Training in righteousness: It cultivates a life of moral integrity and godliness.
**3. Equipping for Ministry:
"That the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work":
"Man of God" refers to Timothy and, by extension, to all who follow God.
"Complete" suggests spiritual maturity and readiness.
"Equipped for every good work" implies that Scripture provides all that is necessary for believers to perform their God-given tasks and live out their faith effectively.
Application
1. Authority of Scripture:
These verses affirm the authority and sufficiency of Scripture for all aspects of faith and practice.
They emphasize that the Bible is not merely human words but God's revelation to humanity, intended to guide, correct, and train believers.
2. Basis for Ministry:
For church leaders and all believers, Scripture is the essential resource for teaching and equipping others.
The passage underscores the importance of grounding ministry in the truths of the Bible to ensure sound doctrine and effective service.
3. Personal Spiritual Growth:
Believers are encouraged to regularly engage with Scripture to grow in understanding, correct their course, and become thoroughly equipped for living out their faith.
Conclusion
2 Timothy 3:16-17 highlights the divine inspiration and comprehensive utility of Scripture in equipping believers for every aspect of their spiritual lives and ministry. This passage underscores the foundational role of the Bible in teaching, correcting, and training believers, ensuring they are fully prepared for the good works God has prepared for them.
****************************************************************************
Context of 2 Timothy 4:2
Verse:
"Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching." (2 Timothy 4:2, ESV)
Context Overview
**1. Author and Audience:
The Apostle Paul wrote the letter of 2 Timothy to Timothy, a younger pastor and Paul's protégé.
Paul wrote this letter while imprisoned in Rome, anticipating his impending execution (2 Timothy 4:6-8).
**2. Purpose of the Letter:
Paul encourages Timothy to remain faithful to his calling and to the teachings he has received.
He warns Timothy about false teachers and the moral decay that will characterize the last days (2 Timothy 3:1-9).
Paul provides personal instructions and encouragement to Timothy to endure hardship, preach the word, and fulfill his ministry (2 Timothy 4:1-5).
Immediate Context
**1. Charge to Timothy (2 Timothy 4:1-5):
Verses 1-5 of chapter 4 contain Paul’s solemn charge to Timothy.
Paul urges Timothy to be faithful in preaching the word, regardless of the circumstances, and to carry out his ministry fully.
**2. Verses Leading Up to 4:2:
2 Timothy 4:1 (ESV): "I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:"
This verse sets the serious tone of the charge, invoking the presence of God and Christ and referencing Christ's future judgment and kingdom.
Paul emphasizes the gravity and urgency of Timothy's responsibility as a minister of the Gospel.
Verse 4:2 in Detail
**1. Preach the Word:
"Preach the word" is a call to proclaim the Gospel and the teachings of Scripture faithfully.
It emphasizes the central role of Scripture in Timothy’s ministry.
**2. Be Ready in Season and Out of Season:
"Be ready in season and out of season" means to be prepared to preach and teach at all times, whether it is convenient or not.
It underscores the need for constant readiness and diligence in ministry.
**3. Reprove, Rebuke, and Exhort:
Reprove (Greek: ἐλέγχω, elegcho): To expose or convict of wrongdoing, correcting false beliefs or behaviors.
Rebuke (Greek: ἐπιτιμάω, epitimao): To sternly correct or admonish, addressing sin or error with authority.
Exhort (Greek: παρακαλέω, parakaleo): To encourage, comfort, and urge to live according to God's will.
These actions encompass the full scope of pastoral care, addressing sin, correcting errors, and encouraging righteous living.
**4. With Complete Patience and Teaching:
"With complete patience and teaching" indicates the manner in which Timothy is to carry out these tasks.
Patience (Greek: μακροθυμία, makrothymia): Longsuffering, endurance, and patience, especially with people.
Teaching (Greek: διδαχή, didache): Sound instruction and doctrine, ensuring that correction and encouragement are rooted in biblical truth.
This highlights the need for perseverance and gentleness in ministry, coupled with a commitment to doctrinal accuracy.
Application
1. Faithfulness in Ministry:
Timothy (and by extension, all believers) is called to be steadfast and faithful in proclaiming the Gospel and teaching Scripture, regardless of the circumstances.
The charge emphasizes the importance of readiness and consistency in ministry.
2. Balanced Approach to Pastoral Care:
The instructions to reprove, rebuke, and exhort reflect a balanced approach to pastoral care, addressing sin and error while also encouraging and building up the congregation.
The emphasis on patience and teaching underscores the need for a compassionate and instructional approach in ministry.
3. Urgency and Seriousness:
Paul's solemn charge reminds believers of the seriousness of their calling and the eternal significance of their ministry, conducted in the presence of God and Christ, who will judge the living and the dead.
Conclusion
2 Timothy 4:2 is part of Paul’s final and solemn charge to Timothy, urging him to faithfully and persistently preach the word, correct errors, and encourage believers, all with patience and sound teaching. This passage highlights the essential and enduring nature of the ministry of the word and the need for diligence, readiness, and compassion in fulfilling this high calling.
You can do the context on the other one verse theology civic-the Lord Jesus Christ is working within me, yes, I concur, we need to correct a erring brother-but in what manner? Me? I seek reconciliation, to correct and be corrected with the hope that the brothers can dwell together in unity and in one accord.
The Reformers style of life was like the Bereans, searching the Scriptures prayerfully and diligently and they lived a style of life in conformity WITH the holy Scriptures.
and in the Spirit-as you are aware of-and many died, being persecuted and hounded. Praise God for the REFORMERS!
Tell me brother-just between you and me-do you think what is going on here is Christlike? Taking the "reprove and rebuke" a bit too far with the snide remarks and ad hominems?
You might think I sound like a hypocrite with this "Christlike" thing-that's the way @praise_yeshua reacted, all for confrontation in a accusatory manner?
I feel a deep sympathy for pastors today-preparing a sermon to feed God's flock-not our flock in this Age of Enlightenment.
Shalom.
The instructions to reprove, rebuke, and exhort reflect a balanced approach to pastoral care, addressing sin and error while also encouraging and building up the congregation.
The emphasis on patience and teaching underscores the need for a compassionate and instructional approach in ministry.
For church leaders and all believers, Scripture is the essential resource for teaching and equipping others.
The passage underscores the importance of grounding ministry in the truths of the Bible to ensure sound doctrine and effective service.
3. Personal Spiritual Growth:
Believers are encouraged to regularly engage with Scripture to grow in understanding, correct their course, and become thoroughly equipped for living out their faith.
Conclusion
2 Timothy 3:16-17 highlights the divine inspiration and comprehensive utility of Scripture in equipping believers for every aspect of their spiritual lives and ministry. This passage underscores the foundational role of the Bible in teaching, correcting, and training believers, ensuring they are fully prepared for the good works God has prepared for them.
You are a church leader-are you not?
civic
Active Member
The reformers persecuted believers who disagreed with them just like the Catholics did.
You need to learn your church history
Maybe you should read Fox’s book of martyrs for a detailed account.
Next
koberstein
Active Member
you already answered your question with Matt. 26:28
Jews suppose the ideas of vicarious atonement and mediation between God and man are Christian; but they are entirely
Jewish, illustrated in the Tanakh by the animal sacrifices and the priests, respectively. Once more, the basic New Testament
source on these subjects is Messianic Jews [Hebrews], especially Chapters 7-10, which relate the animal sacrifices and Levitical
priesthood of the Torah to Yeshua's once-for-all, death-conquering self-sacrifice and consequent eternal high Priesthood.
Yet his being high priest forever does not necessarily invalidate the Levitical priests, since their service is on earth, while his
is in heaven.
In Leviticus 17:11 God states that life is in the blood. Without the shedding of blood---in Jewish thought---there would be
no remission of sin. God sent Messiah to pay the interest and principal in full.
The scapegoat represented the sins of the nation; Yom Kippur points to the ultimate redemption of the world, the fullness
of redemption. A redemption is paid for, not by the blood of an animal, which still leaves a deficit, but by Yeshua's precious
blood, marking the sin debt PAID IN FULL.
We took something off the tree in the garden of Eden, so God put something back on the tree---His crucified body---to
make restitution, to bring life and usher in blessing. What was broken by the first Adam was repaired by the second Adam,
Yeshua/Jesus. This time, it was God's life for our life. God put His blood on the alter instead of an animal's blood or our
blood as a FINAL sacrifice---"God set forth Yeshua as an atonement, through faith in His blood" (Rom. 3:25)
Shalom
Baruch Hashem Adonai
Johann
Active Member
I have learned a lot in my absence for a couple of months from this forum and I have the Fox book of martyrs.
Foxe's Book of Martyrs
Author:
The book was written by John Foxe (1516-1587), an English historian and martyrologist.
Condensed Synopsis
**1. Background and Purpose:
Full Title: "Actes and Monuments of these Latter and Perillous Dayes, Touching Matters of the Church"
Commonly known as Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
Written to document the sufferings of Protestant martyrs, particularly those persecuted during the reign of Mary I of England (1553-1558), also known as "Bloody Mary."
**2. Structure and Content:
First Published: 1563, with subsequent editions expanding the work.
Format: A historical account that spans from early Christian martyrs to contemporary (16th century) Protestant martyrs.
Content:
Early Church Persecutions: Describes the persecutions of early Christians under Roman emperors such as Nero and Diocletian.
Medieval Period: Covers the martyrdoms during the Middle Ages, focusing on those deemed heretics by the Catholic Church, like the Waldensians and Albigensians.
Reformation Era: Details the lives, trials, and executions of Protestant reformers and adherents who faced persecution from Catholic authorities. Particular emphasis is given to the Marian persecutions in England, including notable figures like Thomas Cranmer, Hugh Latimer, and Nicholas Ridley.
**3. Impact and Legacy:
Influence: The book became immensely popular among English Protestants and was used to inspire and bolster Protestant identity and resistance against Catholicism.
Cultural Significance: It helped shape the English Reformation's narrative, depicting Protestant martyrs as heroic figures who stood firm in their faith against oppressive Catholic regimes.
Educational Use: For centuries, the book was second only to the Bible in popularity among English-speaking Protestants, often found in churches and homes.
Conclusion
Foxe's Book of Martyrs is a seminal work by John Foxe that documents the sufferings and deaths of Christian martyrs from the early church through the Reformation, with a particular focus on the persecution of Protestants. Its vivid accounts of faith and endurance in the face of persecution made it a cornerstone of Protestant literature and an influential text in the history of the English Reformation.
The statement that "the reformers persecuted believers who disagreed with them just like the Catholics did" is broadly accurate, though it requires some nuance and historical context. Here’s a detailed explanation:
Historical Context
During the Reformation, various Protestant reformers, like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others, sought to reform the Christian Church, which led to significant theological and political upheaval across Europe. This period was marked by intense religious conflict and a lack of religious tolerance by modern standards.
Protestant Reformers and Persecution
Martin Luther:
Luther initially advocated for religious reform and a return to biblical Christianity. However, he also supported the persecution of groups he considered heretical. For example, he harshly opposed the Anabaptists, who rejected infant baptism and advocated for adult baptism. Anabaptists faced severe persecution, including execution by both Protestant and Catholic authorities.
John Calvin:
In Geneva, Calvin established a theocratic government that enforced religious orthodoxy. One of the most famous cases was the execution of Michael Servetus, a Spanish physician and theologian, who was burned at the stake in 1553 for heresy, specifically his anti-Trinitarian views. Calvin's Geneva was known for strict moral and religious regulation.
Ulrich Zwingli:
Zwingli, a contemporary of Luther and Calvin, also supported the persecution of the Anabaptists. In Zurich, Anabaptists were often drowned, a grim form of execution symbolically linked to their belief in adult baptism.
Comparison with Catholic Persecution
While Protestant reformers did engage in persecution, it is essential to compare the scale and nature of these actions with those of the Catholic Church during the same period:
Spanish Inquisition:
The Catholic Church, particularly through the Spanish Inquisition, conducted extensive campaigns against heresy, including torture and execution. This institution was notorious for its harsh methods and widespread impact.
Marian Persecutions:
Under Queen Mary I of England ("Bloody Mary"), Protestants were persecuted, with many being burned at the stake. This period was marked by significant religious violence against Protestants.
St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre:
In 1572, thousands of Huguenots (French Protestants) were killed in a wave of Catholic mob violence during the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre.
Conclusion
Both Protestant and Catholic authorities engaged in persecution during the Reformation era, targeting those they considered heretical or doctrinally incorrect. The intensity and methods of persecution varied, but intolerance and religious violence were common on both sides. It is crucial to understand this context to appreciate the complex and often brutal nature of religious conflicts in 16th-century Europe.
A very condensed summation--
Origin of the Term "Protestant"
The term "Protestant" originates from the "Protestation" at the Diet of Speyer in 1529. At this imperial assembly, the German princes and city leaders who supported Martin Luther's reforms protested against the decision to uphold the Edict of Worms, which had condemned Luther's teachings. Hence, they became known as "Protestants."
Key Figures in Protestantism
Martin Luther:
A German monk, theologian, and seminal figure in the Reformation.
In 1517, he nailed his 95 Theses to the church door in Wittenberg, criticizing the Catholic Church's sale of indulgences and other practices.
Advocated for justification by faith alone, the authority of Scripture over church tradition, and the priesthood of all believers.
John Calvin:
A French theologian and pastor who played a significant role in the Reformation.
Known for his influential work, "Institutes of the Christian Religion."
Established a theocratic government in Geneva and emphasized predestination and the sovereignty of God.
Ulrich Zwingli:
A Swiss reformer based in Zurich.
Advocated for the removal of images from churches, the abolition of the Mass, and a return to Scripture-based preaching.
Differed from Luther on the Lord’s Supper, leading to a split between their followers.
John Knox:
A Scottish reformer and a disciple of Calvin.
Played a pivotal role in the establishment of Presbyterianism in Scotland.
Major Protestant Denominations
Lutheranism:
Founded on Martin Luther’s teachings.
Emphasizes justification by faith alone and the authority of Scripture.
Maintains traditional liturgical practices but rejects the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.
Calvinism (Reformed Tradition):
Based on the teachings of John Calvin.
Focuses on the sovereignty of God, predestination, and a disciplined Christian life.
Includes denominations like the Presbyterian Church.
Anglicanism:
Originated in England when King Henry VIII broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in 1534.
Maintains a middle way (via media) between Protestant reforms and traditional Catholic practices.
Governed by the Book of Common Prayer.
Anabaptists:
Advocated for adult baptism and a separation from state involvement in church affairs.
Emphasized pacifism and communal living.
Includes groups like the Mennonites and the Amish.
Methodism:
Founded by John Wesley in the 18th century.
Emphasizes a methodical approach to religious practice and personal holiness.
Known for its vigorous missionary work and social justice initiatives.
Core Beliefs of Protestantism
Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone):
The Bible is the ultimate authority in matters of faith and practice.
Sola Fide (Faith Alone):
Justification is received by faith alone, not by works.
Sola Gratia (Grace Alone):
Salvation comes through God's grace alone, not through any human effort.
Solus Christus (Christ Alone):
Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and humanity.
Soli Deo Gloria (To the Glory of God Alone):
All of life is to be lived for the glory of God alone.
Impact of Protestantism
Protestantism led to significant changes in religious, cultural, and political life in Europe and beyond. It challenged the authority of the Catholic Church, promoted literacy and education (due to the emphasis on reading the Bible), and influenced democratic ideas by advocating for the priesthood of all believers.
The Reformation also resulted in religious conflicts and wars, including the Thirty Years’ War, which reshaped the political and religious landscape of Europe. Protestantism's legacy continues to be felt worldwide through various denominations and its impact on Western culture and thought.
So you can keep your flippancy to yourself since come across as a know it all-so yes-next please.
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civic
Active Member
I lead Mens discipleship in our church which includes pastors and elders. They appreciate when I challenge them with scripture or give them alternative views or play devils advocate. In fact I dud that just yesterday after the large group was over after I led the devotion and discussion.
The new associate pastor had 7 of the original group who started the men’s ministry and wanted to make changes. I challenged him in front of the group not to make them and the elders in the group agreed with me.
I’m an open book in real life like I am here and I don’t pull any punches or back away from error in any form. I confront it in love like I’m told to do. Some need gentleness while others need a stiff rebuking.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Then stop defending the reformers who were one of the most ungodly and unChristlike people in history
Johann
Active Member
It looks like you want to make this a personal thing since I strongly disagree with you-do you want to make it personal?
Johann
Active Member
Any Calvinists in your group? Are you telling them in devotion what you are telling me here?
civic
Active Member
civic
Active Member
If you going to defend then you will be challenged. I did the same with non Calvinists when I was a Calvinist. Ask @TomL @TibiasDad @PeanutGallery @sethproton just to name a few
Johann
Active Member
Are you telling them they are ungodly, un-Christlike and heretics as you do here?
civic
Active Member
I never said you are any of those things I said the reformers like Calvin and Luther were. Get your facts straight.
Johann
Active Member
Challenged with what exactly-are you informing the Calvinists in your group they are ungodly, heretics? Are they aware you are doing it here?
Johann
Active Member
Forget me-I want to know if you are informing the Calvinists in your devotional group how you feel about Calvin and Luther?
civic
Active Member
Yep they know like I said we talk about tulip. I’m discipling a Calvinist seminary student right now. My son in law a Calvinist pastor soon to be missionary I challenge all the time and he is rethinking things now. My daughter his wife is a. Calvinist , I raised her as one.
Any more questions?
They read this forum , we discuss it often.
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