Another former Calvinist Sam Shamoun
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Obadiah
Well-known member
Not the dark side. Oh nooos
civic
Well-known member
Its an eye opening video not for the weak.Not the dark side. Oh nooos
He is talking with a former Sunni Muslim converted to Christianity. He cannot believe as a former Sunni the Calvinists believe in the same god.
Cyrus
Active member
Good video
Determinism is the claim that for every event or action there are previous events, circumstances, or actions that are its sufficient conditions or causes, so that it is impossible that the event or action not occur. Christians disagree over whether such a view can be reconciled with human freedom and whether it is a proper way to understand God’s providential care of the universe and sovereignty over history. Those who see it as precluding human freedom are called incompatibilists, while those who believe determinism and freedom may be reconciled are called compatibilists. Incompatibilists typically hold to a view of freedom called libertarian freedom, while compatibilists hold to (the aptly named) compatibilist freedom. Most Calvinists hold to compatibilist freedom, while most non-Calvinists are indeterminists and thus hold to libertarian freedom.
Libertarian freedom is commonly thought to include two features: (1) the ability to choose among alternatives (at least two), understood in such a way that it may be properly said that the individual could have chosen otherwise; and (2) some kind of self-determination, meaning that the choice or action originates within the individual such that nothing outside of his power causes or serves to explain the choice.
Compatibilist freedom likewise is thought to include two features: (1) the ability to choose as one sees fit, understood in such a way that the individual is wholly responsible for his choice; and (2) a compatibility with determinism, meaning that those choices could not have been other than what they, indeed, were. Most commonly, the person’s beliefs, desires, character, and such are thought to dictate or constrain his live options to only one. Thus, under compatibilist principles, individuals always choose in accordance with their greatest desires and could not have chosen otherwise, while under libertarian principles, individuals choose between competing alternatives and could have chosen differently.
John Laing, “Determinism and Human Freedom,” in Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique
Determinism is the claim that for every event or action there are previous events, circumstances, or actions that are its sufficient conditions or causes, so that it is impossible that the event or action not occur. Christians disagree over whether such a view can be reconciled with human freedom and whether it is a proper way to understand God’s providential care of the universe and sovereignty over history. Those who see it as precluding human freedom are called incompatibilists, while those who believe determinism and freedom may be reconciled are called compatibilists. Incompatibilists typically hold to a view of freedom called libertarian freedom, while compatibilists hold to (the aptly named) compatibilist freedom. Most Calvinists hold to compatibilist freedom, while most non-Calvinists are indeterminists and thus hold to libertarian freedom.
Libertarian freedom is commonly thought to include two features: (1) the ability to choose among alternatives (at least two), understood in such a way that it may be properly said that the individual could have chosen otherwise; and (2) some kind of self-determination, meaning that the choice or action originates within the individual such that nothing outside of his power causes or serves to explain the choice.
Compatibilist freedom likewise is thought to include two features: (1) the ability to choose as one sees fit, understood in such a way that the individual is wholly responsible for his choice; and (2) a compatibility with determinism, meaning that those choices could not have been other than what they, indeed, were. Most commonly, the person’s beliefs, desires, character, and such are thought to dictate or constrain his live options to only one. Thus, under compatibilist principles, individuals always choose in accordance with their greatest desires and could not have chosen otherwise, while under libertarian principles, individuals choose between competing alternatives and could have chosen differently.
John Laing, “Determinism and Human Freedom,” in Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique
Biblelesson
Active member
Just a quick comment on the video. I do not believe that God predestined anyone to be a rapist. I believe rapists are doing what their father Satan is telling them to do. I've heard it said over and over that serial killers and rapist when they're caught and are being Interrogated have cold dead eyes. The eyes are the windows to the soul. They're controlled by Satan.
Now what God does do is allow us to live on this earth that is controlled by Satan. God did allow Satan access to Adam and Eve in the garden. Now God could have put Satan in hell right when he started the rebellion in heaven. But He cast him down to earth and we get to deal with the consequences.
Now God did have the solution which he revealed in the garden. Number one was that his creation was going to have a tough time making it here on earth. And it did get so bad that he destroyed mankind with the flood except for Noah and his family.
He also predestined Jesus our savior to come through the bloodline of king David.
Now comes the real debate, Unconditional Election or Conditional Election.
Calvinism teaches that God elects those who are totally depraved and are not able to exercise their fallen wills to believe in Christ. God elects them on the basis of His sovereign good pleasure, conquering their wills so that they are made willing to exercise faith in Christ for salvation.
The enemy can't stop that one. Just like he couldn't stop Jesus from being born.
Why conditional election fails.
Conditional election fails on three counts. First, it fails to recognize the primacy of God’s election in salvation. According to the Bible, the verb elect means “to select, or choose out.”
The biblical doctrine of election is that long before the foundations of the world were laid, God freely chose to save a number of individuals in Christ. Revelation 7:9–17
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
He ordained the means by which they would be saved, despite their sin. Ephesians 1:3–5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
He determined to redeem, bring to faith and repentance, justify, sanctify, preserve, and glorify the elect in and through Jesus Christ while determining to leave others who persist in unbelief to perish in their sin. Romans 9
Election is unconditional since God did not choose the elect because of any intrinsic goodness in them or because He knew that they would believe one day. 1 Corinthians 1:27–31
27 but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption; 31 therefore, as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord.”
Conditional Election fails to recognize both the extent of our depravity and the extent of God’s sovereignty and grace. By doing so, it robs God of His absolute sovereignty and glory.
In compatibilism those desires are determined by GodGood video
Determinism is the claim that for every event or action there are previous events, circumstances, or actions that are its sufficient conditions or causes, so that it is impossible that the event or action not occur. Christians disagree over whether such a view can be reconciled with human freedom and whether it is a proper way to understand God’s providential care of the universe and sovereignty over history. Those who see it as precluding human freedom are called incompatibilists, while those who believe determinism and freedom may be reconciled are called compatibilists. Incompatibilists typically hold to a view of freedom called libertarian freedom, while compatibilists hold to (the aptly named) compatibilist freedom. Most Calvinists hold to compatibilist freedom, while most non-Calvinists are indeterminists and thus hold to libertarian freedom.
Libertarian freedom is commonly thought to include two features: (1) the ability to choose among alternatives (at least two), understood in such a way that it may be properly said that the individual could have chosen otherwise; and (2) some kind of self-determination, meaning that the choice or action originates within the individual such that nothing outside of his power causes or serves to explain the choice.
Compatibilist freedom likewise is thought to include two features: (1) the ability to choose as one sees fit, understood in such a way that the individual is wholly responsible for his choice; and (2) a compatibility with determinism, meaning that those choices could not have been other than what they, indeed, were. Most commonly, the person’s beliefs, desires, character, and such are thought to dictate or constrain his live options to only one. Thus, under compatibilist principles, individuals always choose in accordance with their greatest desires and could not have chosen otherwise, while under libertarian principles, individuals choose between competing alternatives and could have chosen differently.
John Laing, “Determinism and Human Freedom,” in Calvinism: A Biblical and Theological Critique
Yes it is
As the one who causes it has a greater responsibility.
He produces it and stands by while it happens
Why doesn't He stop it then? He could right?
I have a better question why does he cause it and standby watching?
I asked first
Why doesn't He stop it?
I don't know as he has not shared his purpose with me
Why does he cause it and standby?
Ahh....so there's a purpose just as if God determined to occur. There is a purpose. You answered your own question.
Johann
Well-known member
The Old Testament contains several passages where God commands or determines actions that result in the death of children. Here are at least ten examples, with brief context for each:
Genesis 6:11-13, 7:21-23 - The Flood: God determines to destroy all flesh, including children, with a flood due to the corruption and violence on the earth.
"Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, 'I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.'" (Genesis 6:11-13)
"And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark." (Genesis 7:21-23)
Exodus 11:4-5, 12:29-30 - The Tenth Plague: God sends the angel of death to kill all the firstborn in Egypt, including children.
"So Moses said, 'Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go out in the midst of Egypt, and every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the cattle.'"
(Exodus 11:4-5)
"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians. And there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)
Deuteronomy 2:33-34 - Destruction of Sihon and Og: God commands Israel to destroy the people of Sihon, including children.
"And the Lord our God gave him over to us, and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors." (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
Deuteronomy 3:6 - Destruction of Og, King of Bashan: God commands Israel to destroy the people of Og, including children.
"And we devoted them to destruction, as we did to Sihon the king of Heshbon, devoting to destruction every city, men, women, and children." (Deuteronomy 3:6)
1 Samuel 15:2-3 - Destruction of the Amalekites: God commands Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites, including children.
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3)
Joshua 6:17, 21 - Destruction of Jericho: God commands Israel to destroy the city of Jericho, including children.
"And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent." (Joshua 6:17)
"Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)
Joshua 10:28, 40 - Conquests in Canaan: God commands Israel to destroy various cities and their inhabitants, including children.
"As for Makkedah, Joshua captured it on that day and struck it, and its king, with the edge of the sword. He devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. And he did to the king of Makkedah just as he had done to the king of Jericho." (Joshua 10:28)
"So Joshua struck the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed, just as the Lord God of Israel commanded." (Joshua 10:40)
2 Kings 2:23-24 - Elisha and the Bears: God allows bears to kill children who mocked Elisha.
"He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys." (2 Kings 2:23-24)
Jeremiah 19:9 - Prophecy of Jerusalem's Siege: God foretells that during the siege of Jerusalem, parents will eat their children due to the extreme conditions.
"And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them." (Jeremiah 19:9)
Lamentations 2:20-22 - Siege of Jerusalem: The prophet Jeremiah laments the destruction of Jerusalem where children perish as part of God’s judgment.
"Look, O Lord, and see! With whom have you dealt thus? Should women eat the fruit of their womb, the children of their tender care? Should priest and prophet be killed in the sanctuary of the Lord? In the dust of the streets lie the young and the old; my young women and my young men have fallen by the sword; you have killed them in the day of your anger, slaughtering without pity." (Lamentations 2:20-22)
These passages illustrate instances in the Old Testament where divine judgment or command involves the death of children, either directly by God's hand or through the actions of His people.
Nice try-try again @civic
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Yup. Good post. Innocent children according to the Provisionist
Johann
Well-known member
Just read the Scriptures-man is quick to forget--making God culpable and even IF God is culpable who are we to say otherwise?
Simple as that.
Johann.
Johann
Well-known member
You think with your head and not the heart.
The Old Testament contains several passages where God commands or determines actions that result in the death of children. Here are at least ten examples, with brief context for each:
Genesis 6:11-13, 7:21-23 - The Flood: God determines to destroy all flesh, including children, with a flood due to the corruption and violence on the earth.
"Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, 'I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.'" (Genesis 6:11-13)
"And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark." (Genesis 7:21-23)
Exodus 11:4-5, 12:29-30 - The Tenth Plague: God sends the angel of death to kill all the firstborn in Egypt, including children.
"So Moses said, 'Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go out in the midst of Egypt, and every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the cattle.'" (Exodus 11:4-5)
"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians. And there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)
Deuteronomy 2:33-34 - Destruction of Sihon and Og: God commands Israel to destroy the people of Sihon, including children.
"And the Lord our God gave him over to us, and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors." (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
Deuteronomy 3:6 - Destruction of Og, King of Bashan: God commands Israel to destroy the people of Og, including children.
"And we devoted them to destruction, as we did to Sihon the king of Heshbon, devoting to destruction every city, men, women, and children." (Deuteronomy 3:6)
1 Samuel 15:2-3 - Destruction of the Amalekites: God commands Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites, including children.
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3)
Joshua 6:17, 21 - Destruction of Jericho: God commands Israel to destroy the city of Jericho, including children.
"And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent." (Joshua 6:17)
"Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)
Joshua 10:28, 40 - Conquests in Canaan: God commands Israel to destroy various cities and their inhabitants, including children.
"As for Makkedah, Joshua captured it on that day and struck it, and its king, with the edge of the sword. He devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. And he did to the king of Makkedah just as he had done to the king of Jericho." (Joshua 10:28)
"So Joshua struck the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed, just as the Lord God of Israel commanded." (Joshua 10:40)
2 Kings 2:23-24 - Elisha and the Bears: God allows bears to kill children who mocked Elisha.
"He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys." (2 Kings 2:23-24)
Jeremiah 19:9 - Prophecy of Jerusalem's Siege: God foretells that during the siege of Jerusalem, parents will eat their children due to the extreme conditions.
"And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them." (Jeremiah 19:9)
Lamentations 2:20-22 - Siege of Jerusalem: The prophet Jeremiah laments the destruction of Jerusalem where children perish as part of God’s judgment.
"Look, O Lord, and see! With whom have you dealt thus? Should women eat the fruit of their womb, the children of their tender care? Should priest and prophet be killed in the sanctuary of the Lord? In the dust of the streets lie the young and the old; my young women and my young men have fallen by the sword; you have killed them in the day of your anger, slaughtering without pity." (Lamentations 2:20-22)
These passages illustrate instances in the Old Testament where divine judgment or command involves the death of children, either directly by God's hand or through the actions of His people.
In examining the Old Testament passages where divine actions result in the death of children, it's essential to explore the concept of God's determinism from a scholarly perspective. God's determinism, in this context, refers to the theological belief that God has predetermined or ordained certain events or outcomes according to His sovereign will and purpose. In Hebrew thought and language, several terms and concepts capture this notion.
Key Hebrew Terms and Concepts
גְּזֵרָה (Gezerah) - Decree or Decision
This term often refers to a divine decree or decision that is irrevocable. For instance, in the context of prophetic declarations, a "gezerah" implies a predetermined outcome decided by God.
עֵצָה (Etsah) - Counsel or Plan
This term can denote the plans or purposes of God, indicating that events unfold according to His divine counsel. For example, Isaiah 46:10 mentions God's counsel standing firm, highlighting the concept of His sovereign plans.
פְּקֻדָּה (Pekuddah) - Command or Charge
This term can imply a divine command or charge, reflecting God's authoritative determination in certain matters.
צָוָה (Tzavah) - To Command
The verb "tzavah" means to command or order, reflecting God's authoritative directive, which brings about specific outcomes.
מַחֲשָׁבוֹת (Machashavot) - Thoughts or Plans
This term, often translated as "thoughts" or "plans," reflects the intentional and purposeful design of God. Jeremiah 29:11, for instance, refers to God's plans for His people.
Scholarly Definitions and Interpretations
Divine Sovereignty:
Scholars define divine determinism in terms of God's absolute sovereignty. This means God exercises complete control over the universe, orchestrating all events to fulfill His purposes. This sovereignty is evident in passages where God explicitly commands or causes events, demonstrating His ultimate authority and control.
Theological Determinism:
Theological determinism suggests that all events, including human actions, are determined by God's will. In Hebrew thought, this is closely linked with the understanding of God as the ultimate authority who decrees and foreordains outcomes.
Predestination:
In the context of these Old Testament passages, predestination refers to the belief that God has preordained certain events and outcomes, including the judgment of nations and individuals. This is reflected in the predetermined judgments and decrees seen in the stories of the flood, the plagues of Egypt, and the destruction of various peoples.
Scriptural Examples and Their Deterministic Elements
Genesis 6:11-13, 7:21-23 (The Flood):
The decision to destroy all flesh is a divine decree (גְּזֵרָה), reflecting God's predetermined plan to judge the earth for its corruption.
Exodus 11:4-5, 12:29-30 (The Tenth Plague):
The killing of the firstborn in Egypt is a direct command (צָוָה) from God, demonstrating His sovereign will in executing judgment.
Deuteronomy 2:33-34, 3:6 (Destruction of Sihon and Og):
God's command to utterly destroy these peoples reflects His predetermined judgment (פְּקֻדָּה) against them.
1 Samuel 15:2-3 (Destruction of the Amalekites):
The directive to annihilate the Amalekites, including children, is a divine command (צָוָה) reflecting God's judgment based on His sovereign plan.
Joshua 6:17, 21; 10:28, 40 (Destruction of Jericho and other cities):
The instructions to destroy entire cities as part of the conquest of Canaan are seen as the execution of God's predetermined plans (עֵצָה).
Conclusion
The scholarly Hebrew definitions of God's determinism revolve around concepts of divine decree (גְּזֵרָה), command (צָוָה), counsel (עֵצָה), and plan (מַחֲשָׁבוֹת). These terms underscore the belief in God's ultimate sovereignty and authority over all events, including those resulting in the death of children. In the Old Testament, these instances reflect God's predetermined judgments and actions, highlighting His control and purposeful design in the unfolding of history.
Johann
