An Article on free will

EG
I also think we've had enough.
But you can't say I'm thickheaded...
maybe YOU are the one that's thickheaded.
please show me where I used the word thickheaded?

Are you hearing things that I have not said?

are you being defensive?
WHERE does the verse say CLAIM?
Why does James use the word Brethren just a few verses above the verse YOU posted?
I have showed you already

NKJV - 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
NASB = 14 What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works?
ESV - 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
New Catholic Bible - 14 What good is it, my brethren, if someone claims to have faith but does not have good works?
NIV - 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?
NRSV - 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters if you say you have faith but do not have works?
Douay Rheims - 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

I mean how many more bible versions do I need to use, that show James word. they said, claimed, stated, spoke out load. prophesied.. take it any way you want it. But to deny James said they said or claimed they had faith.

This is just wrong.
Of course not every word in the NT is to believers....
why the gospel then !

But in some cases it IS
and in some cases it's ONLY FOR THE APOSTLES.

Let's take your view:
SOMEONE CLAIMS TO HAVE FAITH
BUT DOES NOT HAVE WORKS
CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM?

Your answer is a resounding NO.

Good. Because we're still back to having to state that good works are necessary for salvation.
If a faith WITHOUT WORKS will not save...

Then ONLY a FAITH WITH WORKS will save.
No,

Because I am saved by grace through faith. not of works.

works come after salvation. And are not required to keep salvation.

Perfection is Gods standard. I know of no one who meets this standard in the last 2000 years.. so no one would of their own merit merit salvation.
 
so what does a vine dresser do to a branch that is laying on the ground being chocked out and unable to produce fruit..

Or what does he do to branches that have dead twigs on them, and are not producing fruit?

it may be funny, But this is a serious matter.
Is this a test?
He cuts them off so the rest of the vine could flourish and the dead branches are not taking up nourishment...or, at least, the ones that are dying. No reason to nourish a dying branch.

And the ones that ARE producing get pruned so they COULD PRODUCE EVEN MORE.

A serious matter indeed.

We should be helping new Christians along their way....
not teaching them that we fight against good works...
which is what YOU are doing.
 
please show me where I used the word thickheaded?
You didn't.
It's MY word...,it's how it made me feel (that you were saying).


Are you hearing things that I have not said?
Not yet.
When I do,,,I think I'll stop posting.
:cool:
are you being defensive?
No.

I have showed you already

NKJV - 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
NASB = 14 What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works?
ESV - 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
New Catholic Bible - 14 What good is it, my brethren, if someone claims to have faith but does not have good works?
NIV - 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?
NRSV - 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters if you say you have faith but do not have works?
Douay Rheims - 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

I mean how many more bible versions do I need to use, that show James word. they said, claimed, stated, spoke out load. prophesied.. take it any way you want it. But to deny James said they said or claimed they had faith.
How about letting scripture explain scripture?
How about the other verses I posted?
Matthew 25.....whatever you did to the least....
Whatever you DID NOT DO to the least....

What about the wise man and the foolish man...
Matthew 7: 23 (?)
The Wise Man....ACTED on the words of Jesus
The Foolish Man....DID NOT ACT on the words of Jesus

James 2:14 is written to BELIEVERS.
It starts: MY BRETHREN.....brothers in christ.

If one says he has faith....
but does not have works....
WHAT GOOD IS IT?

What good is what?
This is just wrong.

No,

Because I am saved by grace through faith. not of works.

works come after salvation. And are not required to keep salvation.

Perfection is Gods standard. I know of no one who meets this standard in the last 2000 years.. so no one would of their own merit merit salvation.
I just am not going to reply to the above.
Works come after salvation.
But yes....they do maintain your salvation.

JESUS said so,,,and I've given you plenty of verses.
 
Is this a test?
He cuts them off so the rest of the vine could flourish and the dead branches are not taking up nourishment...or, at least, the ones that are dying. No reason to nourish a dying branch.
No he does not cut them off. He lifts them up.

He takes them off the ground and ties them up.. and they start producing fuit.

john 15: 2. takes away is not a good translation. The word Lifts up, to raise up. to take up. to lift.

It is what a vinedresser does when a branch does not produce furit. He lifts them up



And the ones that ARE producing get pruned so they COULD PRODUCE EVEN MORE.
Yes, He cuts the bad parts out. that is how God prunes us by destroying what is bad in us..
A serious matter indeed.

We should be helping new Christians along their way....
not teaching them that we fight against good works...
which is what YOU are doing.
I agree. and I do this, this is what discipleship is all about.

but we are not discussing sanctification we are discussing justification or salvation.

No I am not

You are lying here.

I am against merit based salvation. Because people who try to merit salvation are not saved. any more than the licentious person is saved who claimed to have faith but had zero sip nada works.

You need to stop with your silly accusations.
 
Man performs the act of believing-but it is not a meritorious work; it is the response God commands (Acts 16:31; John 3:16).

Jesus says, “This is the work of God, that you believe” (John 6:29)--the genitive τοῦ θεοῦ can indicate source, origin, or requirement.
In context, it means the belief God requires, not that God believes for man.

Romans 10:10 – “With the heart man believes (πιστεύεται) unto righteousness...”
The subject of belief is man--God doesn't believe on man's behalf.

But Philippians 1:29 shows faith is also graciously granted:
“To you it has been granted... to believe in Him...” – ἐχαρίσθη (has been graciously given).

So.. man believes, as commanded, but the capacity to do so is offered by God..not forced, not automatic, and not meritorious.

J.
@Johann and any that care to comment.... I need some splainin done.

You wrote: " Man performs the act of believing-but it is not a meritorious work; it is the response God commands (Acts 16:31; John 3:16).

Why is belief/faith a work?

IF

John 6:29 KJV by default

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Why do so many say belief/faith is a WORK that we are commanded to do?
As I read John 6:29 I do not read it as a WORK that we do, as much as I see it is a command from the Father

Thank you in advance
 
Have there really been almost 10,000 posts about free will and no discussion of the meaning of our enslavement to sin, Jn 8:34?

If there is one somewhere in this topic will someone point it out for me, thanks... :)
 
You didn't.
It's MY word...,it's how it made me feel (that you were saying).
well that would be from anyone who does not agree.. so it seems like a strawman to me.
Not yet.
When I do,,,I think I'll stop posting.
:cool:
you sure?
Your sure. I think we all get this way at times.. and it makes us react the way we sometimes do
How about letting scripture explain scripture?
It did

James said they said they had faith

another way to put it, is they claimed to have faith

however. when we say James did not say that.. then we are not even heeding scripture
How about the other verses I posted?
Matthew 25.....whatever you did to the least....
Whatever you DID NOT DO to the least....
what about it?
What about the wise man and the foolish man...
Matthew 7: 23 (?)
The Wise Man....ACTED on the words of Jesus
The Foolish Man....DID NOT ACT on the words of Jesus
What about it?
James 2:14 is written to BELIEVERS.
It starts: MY BRETHREN.....brothers in christ.
They CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH.

They had no faith. are you telling me now a person who does not have faith is a believer,

think about what you are saying
If one says he has faith....
but does not have works....
WHAT GOOD IS IT?
What does it profit. CAN THAt faith SAVE YOU

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
What good is what?
Can a person who has no faith be saved?

He said they claimed they had faith, yet they had no works.

can that claimed faith save them?

its not hard..
I just am not going to reply to the above.
Works come after salvation.
But yes....they do maintain your salvation.
Then they do not come after salvation. Because you are not yet saved.


JESUS said so,,,and I've given you plenty of verses.
No, Jesus did nto say so.

and I have given you plenty of verses..

who is your faith in/ God, or your works.

if you must work to stay saved, your faith is in your works. not God.

I know its hard to hear. but its true..
 
@Johann and any that care to comment.... I need some splainin done.

You wrote: " Man performs the act of believing-but it is not a meritorious work; it is the response God commands (Acts 16:31; John 3:16).

Why is belief/faith a work?

IF

John 6:29 KJV by default

29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Why do so many say belief/faith is a WORK that we are commanded to do?
As I read John 6:29 I do not read it as a WORK that we do, as much as I see it is a command from the Father

Thank you in advance
Rella, good question, I am trying for a week now to participate but this server/site is VERY slow--takes me up to an hour to go from one post to another, I have brought this up to civic but thus far no results.

I will respond when this is sorted out.

Promise you.

Johann.
 
No he does not cut them off. He lifts them up.

He takes them off the ground and ties them up.. and they start producing fuit.

john 15: 2. takes away is not a good translation. The word Lifts up, to raise up. to take up. to lift.

It is what a vinedresser does when a branch does not produce furit. He lifts them up




Yes, He cuts the bad parts out. that is how God prunes us by destroying what is bad in us..

I agree. and I do this, this is what discipleship is all about.

but we are not discussing sanctification we are discussing justification or salvation.

No I am not

You are lying here.

I am against merit based salvation. Because people who try to merit salvation are not saved. any more than the licentious person is saved who claimed to have faith but had zero sip nada works.

You need to stop with your silly accusations.
EG....
We're discussing BELIEVERS.
We're discussing AFTER salvation and I've made this very clear.
We're discussing SANCTIFICATION.

Why am I lying?
Why are you debating good works IF you AGREE with me?

To someone reading along it looks like I believe in good works
and you are doing your best to avoid the topic.
Even having to use Strong's.


Grapes don't grow on the ground.
The ones in Greece are very very low due to lack of water.
Otherwise, they should be high up.

 
well that would be from anyone who does not agree.. so it seems like a strawman to me.

you sure?

Your sure. I think we all get this way at times.. and it makes us react the way we sometimes do

It did

James said they said they had faith

another way to put it, is they claimed to have faith

however. when we say James did not say that.. then we are not even heeding scripture

what about it?

What about it?

They CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH.

They had no faith. are you telling me now a person who does not have faith is a believer,

think about what you are saying

What does it profit. CAN THAt faith SAVE YOU

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Can a person who has no faith be saved?

He said they claimed they had faith, yet they had no works.

can that claimed faith save them?

its not hard..

Then they do not come after salvation. Because you are not yet saved.



No, Jesus did nto say so.

and I have given you plenty of verses..

who is your faith in/ God, or your works.

if you must work to stay saved, your faith is in your works. not God.

I know its hard to hear. but its true..
Let's hone in on this....
In post 9125 I asked you something regarding your following statement:

EG said:
"If one says he has faith....
but does not have works....
WHAT GOOD IS IT?

What good is what?"



What good is what??
 
EG....
We're discussing BELIEVERS.
Yes,

In john we are discussing How God gets believers (all of them) to produce fruit
We're discussing AFTER salvation and I've made this very clear.
We're discussing SANCTIFICATION.
A believer has been saved. so what you just said here makes no sense.

If we are discussing a believer they are already saved.

Only a believer can produce fruit. a non believer can not produce fruit.
Why am I lying?
Why are you debating good works IF you AGREE with me?
No. I am debating meritorious works (works required for salvation)

Not works a believer performs after they are saved, or sanctification.

Your the one trying to debate I reject good works. not me.
To someone reading along it looks like I believe in good works
and you are doing your best to avoid the topic.
Even having to use Strong's.
lol.. No sister. no one would think this

what they would see is you believe works are required for salvation.

I believe works are a result of salvation.
Grapes don't grow on the ground.
The ones in Greece are very very low due to lack of water.
Otherwise, they should be high up.
Your right, thats why they must be lifted up.. Not takes away.. takes away is a bad translation.
 
Let's hone in on this....
In post 9125 I asked you something regarding your following statement:

EG said:
"If one says he has faith....
but does not have works....
WHAT GOOD IS IT?

What good is what?"



What good is what??
CAN IT SAVE YOU

James answered the question. as did I/

what does it profit a person (what good is it)

if one says/claims he has faith, but has no works (he did not say they had some works. had works for awhile then stopped doing them, or did not have enough works, he said they had no works., these people did not do one work after they claimed they trusted God.)

Can this faith save them.

is a dead faith good enough to save a person.

is it faith at all. or is it mere believe (even demons believe yet tremble)
 
Yes,

In john we are discussing How God gets believers (all of them) to produce fruit
What if the believer does NOT bear fruit?
A believer has been saved. so what you just said here makes no sense.
If we want to REMAIN saved....
we must obey God.

If we are discussing a believer they are already saved.

Only a believer can produce fruit. a non believer can not produce fruit.
I agree that only a believer can produce fruit that is of any use to God.
No. I am debating meritorious works (works required for salvation)
Actually, JESUS did teach that good works are necessary for salvation...
or, to clarify, continued salvation.
This is called obeying the gospel...
obeying Jesus.
We obey through faith.

Paul taught the gentiles the following:

Romans 1:5
4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to
bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Not works a believer performs after they are saved, or sanctification.

Your the one trying to debate I reject good works. not me.

lol.. No sister. no one would think this

what they would see is you believe works are required for salvation.
And that is correct.
AFTER we are saved...
we are REQUIRED to obey Jesus' commands.

Since we are required to obey, I'd say, yes, works/good deeds are necessary for continued salvation.
Jesus taught this, not me.
I believe works are a result of salvation.

Your right, thats why they must be lifted up.. Not takes away.. takes away is a bad translation.
Believe me EG,,,,
The word in John 15 :2 is SEVER. TO CUT AWAY.

John 15:2

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

New Living Translation

He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.

English Standard Version

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Berean Standard Bible

He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.

Berean Literal Bible

Every branch not bearing fruit in Me, He takes it away; and every one bearing fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit.

King James Bible

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

New King James Version

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

New American Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

NASB 1995

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

NASB 1977

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.

Legacy Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He cleans it so that it may bear more fruit.

Amplified Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that continues to bear fruit, He [repeatedly] prunes, so that it will bear more fruit [even richer and finer fruit].

Christian Standard Bible

Every branch in me that does not produce fruit he removes, and he prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

American Standard Version

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

Contemporary English Version

He cuts away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit. But he trims clean every branch that does produce fruit, so that it will produce even more fruit.

English Revised Version

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

He removes every one of my branches that doesn't produce fruit. He also prunes every branch that does produce fruit to make it produce more fruit.

Good News Translation

He breaks off every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and he prunes every branch that does bear fruit, so that it will be clean and bear more fruit.

International Standard Version

He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit.

NET Bible

He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit.

New Heart English Bible

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Webster's Bible Translation

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleaneth it, that it my bring forth more fruit.

Weymouth New Testament

Every branch in me--if it bears no fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Majority Text Translations



He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.

World English Bible

Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

 
What if the believer does NOT bear fruit?
He lifts them up, or he prunes them

But we can be confident of this one thing, He who began a good work will complete it.

Is God not capable of producing good fruit in his children?
If we want to REMAIN saved....
we must obey God.
Then you are under works. not under grace
I agree that only a believer can produce fruit that is of any use to God.
Its not about just being of use to God. its being of use to others.

We bear fruit by loving others. and God and serving them
Actually, JESUS did teach that good works are necessary for salvation...
No he did not

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 John 6. I can go on and on and on
or, to clarify, continued salvation.
This is called obeying the gospel...
obeying Jesus.
We obey through faith.
Yes.

I obey God in faith and recieve his salvation.

once I reacive it, and have tasted of his love, I learn in faith to return that by loving and serving others.
Paul taught the gentiles the following:

Romans 1:5
4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to
bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Faith minus works..
And that is correct.
AFTER we are saved...
we are REQUIRED to obey Jesus' commands.
Are you perfect? That is the requirment.
Your trying to tell people they must do the impossible. be perfect.


Since we are required to obey, I'd say, yes, works/good deeds are necessary for continued salvation.
Jesus taught this, not me.
if works are required. no one will be saved

again, perfection is required.
Believe me EG,,,,
The word in John 15 :2 is SEVER. TO CUT AWAY.
Wrong

I proved it in the greek, You are arguing against the word now..
John 15:2




New International Version

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

New Living Translation

He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.

English Standard Version

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Berean Standard Bible

He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.

Berean Literal Bible

Every branch not bearing fruit in Me, He takes it away; and every one bearing fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit.

King James Bible

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

New King James Version

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

New American Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

NASB 1995

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

NASB 1977

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.

Legacy Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He cleans it so that it may bear more fruit.

Amplified Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that continues to bear fruit, He [repeatedly] prunes, so that it will bear more fruit [even richer and finer fruit].

Christian Standard Bible

Every branch in me that does not produce fruit he removes, and he prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

American Standard Version

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

Contemporary English Version

He cuts away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit. But he trims clean every branch that does produce fruit, so that it will produce even more fruit.

English Revised Version

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

He removes every one of my branches that doesn't produce fruit. He also prunes every branch that does produce fruit to make it produce more fruit.

Good News Translation

He breaks off every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and he prunes every branch that does bear fruit, so that it will be clean and bear more fruit.

International Standard Version

He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit.

NET Bible

He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit.

New Heart English Bible

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Webster's Bible Translation

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleaneth it, that it my bring forth more fruit.

Weymouth New Testament

Every branch in me--if it bears no fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Majority Text Translations



Majority Standard Bible

He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.

World English Bible

Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Again, the correct translation would be he LIFTS up every branch.

But hey, you want to keep trying to earn salvation, feel free.. I will wish you luck.
 
What if the believer does NOT bear fruit?

If we want to REMAIN saved....
we must obey God.


I agree that only a believer can produce fruit that is of any use to God.

Actually, JESUS did teach that good works are necessary for salvation...
or, to clarify, continued salvation.
This is called obeying the gospel...
obeying Jesus.
We obey through faith.

Paul taught the gentiles the following:

Romans 1:5
4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to
bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

And that is correct.
AFTER we are saved...
we are REQUIRED to obey Jesus' commands.

Since we are required to obey, I'd say, yes, works/good deeds are necessary for continued salvation.
Jesus taught this, not me.

Believe me EG,,,,
The word in John 15 :2 is SEVER. TO CUT AWAY.

John 15:2




New International Version

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

New Living Translation

He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.

English Standard Version

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Berean Standard Bible

He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.

Berean Literal Bible

Every branch not bearing fruit in Me, He takes it away; and every one bearing fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit.

King James Bible

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

New King James Version

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

New American Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

NASB 1995

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

NASB 1977

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit.

Legacy Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He cleans it so that it may bear more fruit.

Amplified Bible

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that continues to bear fruit, He [repeatedly] prunes, so that it will bear more fruit [even richer and finer fruit].

Christian Standard Bible

Every branch in me that does not produce fruit he removes, and he prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

Holman Christian Standard Bible

Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit.

American Standard Version

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

Contemporary English Version

He cuts away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit. But he trims clean every branch that does produce fruit, so that it will produce even more fruit.

English Revised Version

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

He removes every one of my branches that doesn't produce fruit. He also prunes every branch that does produce fruit to make it produce more fruit.

Good News Translation

He breaks off every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and he prunes every branch that does bear fruit, so that it will be clean and bear more fruit.

International Standard Version

He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit.

NET Bible

He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit.

New Heart English Bible

Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Webster's Bible Translation

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleaneth it, that it my bring forth more fruit.

Weymouth New Testament

Every branch in me--if it bears no fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Majority Text Translations



Majority Standard Bible

He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.

World English Bible

Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

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take away is misunderstood to mean cut off. or push out.

The greek is clear in its understanding.

again, a vinedressor lifts up branches on the ground so that they can bear fruit..

Thats what John said.. thats how we should interpret him
 
My salvation was preordained.
You said you were "predestined before time began". For proof I asked you to produce your Conformity to Christ progress reports from 13.8 Billion BC to the day you were born. I see no progress report which proves you're just blowing smoke.
No, rhat would be you.
I can read James 2:24. It's you who fails the James 2:24 eye examination.
I see again your ignoring Romans 4.
False. Here is proof:
Again, Rom 4 is perfectly in synch with the fact that works of the Law do not save. In fact, Paul drives that point home here in Rom 4 when he says that the Mosaic Laws did not even exist in Abraham's time and yet he was still justified. In what way was Abraham justified?
No it does not, not the way you interpret James

Romans 4 says no works period. Faith alone
Where does Rom 4 mention "faith alone"??? With all due respect, you must look into getting a pair of glasses that will allow you to see what's actually written in the Bible.
James 4 says no faith no salvation. How do we know if we have saving faith. are we doing works.
James 4 is not a fruit inspector clause in scripture telling you to go determine peoples salvation.
I have no problem with that. I issue here is: who's justification is James talking about? Is he talking about God's justification in James 2:24, yes or no?
Notice you did not say a word about romans 4.
False again. Here's the proof again:
Again, Rom 4 is perfectly in synch with the fact that works of the Law do not save. In fact, Paul drives that point home here in Rom 4 when he says that the Mosaic Laws did not even exist in Abraham's time and yet he was still justified. In what way was Abraham justified?
Here let me help you

paul said we are saved by grace period. But God will nto force it on us, he wants us to recieve it in faith. Not by works. lest anyone should boast.

He then says we who are saved by faith will do works.
You now switched the subject to “grace”. Of course we are saved by grace period. Where did I ever say anything to the contrary? Everything good comes from God by His Grace. Stop with the strawmen.
James, talking to hears of the word not doers says this.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Profit - to ophelos - advantage, benefit ,of any use
says - lege to say, to talk, to speak, to confess
faith - pistin - faith, to have confidence in, to trust, to be persuaded
so we see, we have people who CLAIM they have faith. Claim they are persuaded about God and what God says about them and his promise to them . they trust God. they have confidence in God and all his says.

Yet never does a thing he says, ie, they have no works (they are hearers and not doers)

and James asked the question. Can THIS TYPE OF FAITH save them?

Paul says no. I guess you say yes??
Thanks for mentioning verse 14. That’s another verse that destroys your "faith alone" ideology.
 
this is why isms are a faulty view to try to see what others believe.

they claim us receiving Gods gift is synergism..

its not. Because it is the work of God we believe.

I use the example of a person drawing in the middle of the ocean. A person is sent to rescue them. The person who is drowning is free to reject the person who came to save them, refuse to admit they need help, or tell the person they are ok, they can save themselves.

or they can trust the person sent to rescue them.

If they are rescued, they did not cooperate,, and they did nto work to save themselves. they can not boast. Because they did nothing. It was all the rescuer.

so in fact. we who believe in grace would be monergists. as it is all of God..

we can look at it this way

the one who does not believe earn their condemnation. they cooperated in their own eternal death.. they would be a synergist in their own detriment

the one who receives did not do anything to save themselves. it is all of God.. He gets the credit
Are you seriously taking issue with the fact that Apostles called themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος)??? Seriously?
 
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