An Article on free will

[GodsGrace]

Everything good comes from God such as our minds, talents, conscience, heart, will, etc... I could go on and on about what God has gifted us with but you get the point. I'm sure you agree with that so far. So I naturally give God all the glory for all that he has gifted and entrusted us with. Now all that has to be responsibly handled by us through proper employment of our minds, talents, conscience, heart, will, etc... Proper usage of our God-given minds gives us the ability to hear God's word and to act on it. That's what Rom 10:8-13 is all about. By hearing, believing, and acting upon what the word of God says, God promises to seal us with the Holy Spirit (Regeneration), and to predestine us into becoming images of Christ. Even the works that we do are preordained by God so there's no boasting there either. See Eph 2:10.

So, let's back up and look at the terminology you're using. Your terminology is all one sided, biased, self-focused, and boastful. You use words like yourself, your own works, your flesh. Your extreme bias is nothing but strawmen.

You said:
HEAR GOD'S WORD AND ACT ON IT....
This...ACTING ON IT part is not liked by many Christians.
James 1:22
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Not merely hearers
WHO DELUDE THEMSELVES.


Those who do not act on God's word...
are deluding themselves.

 

[MTMattie]

See post 8858....

Sorry, I replied to the wrong thread....

 

[synergy]

You said:
HEAR GOD'S WORD AND ACT ON IT....
This...ACTING ON IT part is not liked by many Christians.
James 1:22
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Not merely hearers
WHO DELUDE THEMSELVES.


Those who do not act on God's word...
are deluding themselves.

Yes. There's a lot of confusion about the word "work". Many people take Paul's verses about works of the Law and incorrectly say that all works should be trashed. Not all works are works of the Law. Most people (me included) can't even remember all 10 commandments and yet there are a gazillion good works out there being done daily by many charities and charitable people.

 

[Johann]

The origin does NOT answer the question @synergy is asking.
Did God make the angels with the sin nature?
No. Absolutely not.

So WHAT was in their "soul" that made them sin??

(I guess angels have a soul....not sure).

There's a lot of confusion about the word "work". Many people take Paul's verses about works of the Law and incorrectly say that all works should be trashed. Not all works are works of the Law. Most people (me included) can't even remember all 10 commandments and yet there are a gazillion good works out there being done daily by many charities and charitable people.

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Heb_10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Only within the sphere of the Holy Spirit--never from self-generated "moral" good works.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Heb_10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Only within the sphere of the Holy Spirit--never from self-generated "moral" good works.

J.

Of course it has to be your last sentence Johann.
This is where the confusion sets in.
An unsaved person can do all the good works he wants to...it will not save him.
AFTER we become born again...saved....then it becomes a requirement for us to do good works.
This is what obedience is.
If we obey,,,,we are doing good works.
It goes hand in hand.

Those that believe works is an undesirable word in the Christian faith seem to not have read the NT very carefully.
All of Jesus' teachings included good works of one type or another.

Must go.
'night.

 

[Johann]

Of course it has to be your last sentence Johann.
This is where the confusion sets in.
An unsaved person can do all the good works he wants to...it will not save him.
AFTER we become born again...saved....then it becomes a requirement for us to do good works.
This is what obedience is.
If we obey,,,,we are doing good works.
It goes hand in hand.

Those that believe works is an undesirable word in the Christian faith seem to not have read the NT very carefully.
All of Jesus' teachings included good works of one type or another.

Must go.
'night.

Goodnight sorella.

Romans 8:9 (NASB)
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

This verse clearly affirms that possession of the Spirit is essential for belonging to Christ, and it negates any possibility of spiritual life or saving relationship apart from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Text (NASB):
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and perform many miracles?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
— Matthew 7:21–23 (NASB)

Were they true believers?
No, according to Jesus' own declaration:

"I never knew you" (οὐδέποτε ἔγνων ὑμᾶς) – This is not “I used to know you,” but “I never at any time knew you.”
The Greek adverb οὐδέποτε is categorical--it denotes absolute negation of any prior relationship.

They professed external works--prophecy, exorcism, miracles--but lacked obedience to the Father’s will.

They are described as “those who practice lawlessness” (οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν)--habitual evildoers despite religious activity.

Their faith was profession without possession--using His name while remaining outside His will and relationship.

These individuals were not regenerate believers.
They were self-deceived religious performers, not born of the Spirit (cf. John 3:3–5; Rom. 8:9).

Matthew 25 -- Sheep and Goats, Wise and Foolish
There are two relevant parables in Matthew 25:

Verses 1–13: Parable of the Ten Virgins

Verses 31–46: Parable of the Sheep and Goats

1. The Foolish Virgins (Matt 25:1–13)
All are outwardly waiting for the bridegroom (symbolic of Christ).

But only five had oil in their lamps--commonly interpreted as a symbol of the Holy Spirit or genuine preparedness.

The foolish ones are shut out:

“Truly I say to you, I do not know you.” (Matt 25:12 NASB)

Again echoing Matthew 7:23--no saving relationship existed.

2. The Goats (Matt 25:31–46)
The “goats” are separated from the “sheep” on the day of judgment.

Though they failed to minister to Christ’s people, they seem surprised and perhaps expected to be welcomed.

Christ calls them “accursed ones” and says:

“Depart from Me… into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt 25:41)

None of these--foolish virgins, goats, or Matthew 7:21 claimants--are described as regenerate believers.
They are self-assured but never known by the Lord, never indwelt by the Spirit (Rom 8:9), and not obedient from the heart (Rom 6:17).

Passage External Religious Acts? Called Jesus “Lord”? Saved? Known by Jesus?
Matthew 7:21–23 Yes (prophecy, miracles) Yes “Never knew you”
Matthew 25:1–13 (Fools) Yes (waiting virgins) Not mentioned “I do not know you”
Matthew 25:31–46 (Goats) No good deeds to brethren Not mentioned “Depart from Me”


I am sure you would agree with me here. Sobering words.

J.

 

[civic]

Actually I find it quite simple, Adam was a mere human, Christ was God in the human flesh. And God even in the human flesh can not sin, that's impossible. The devil should have known better.

Yes impeccable just like the Father

 

[ProDeo]

The origin does NOT answer the question @synergy is asking.
Did God make the angels with the sin nature?
No. Absolutely not.

So WHAT was in their "soul" that made them sin??

Ever heard of free will ?

 

[ProDeo]

Yes impeccable just like the Father

Indeed.

The idea that Christ could fail is unthinkable.

Asking the question -- could Christ fail? -- is answering the question.

 

[synergy]

Ever heard of free will ?

Let's roll back the tape. @Eternally-Grateful claims that there are 2 natures in existence for humans, which the Bible never mentions. He claims that one nature is human nature and the other nature is sin nature. So taking Adam as an example, I asked him how can someone perform a sin nature act (his definition of sin nature) while he still embodies human nature?

The correct way of looking at the situation is that there's one nature coupled with free will, as you correctly said.

 

[Johann]

Let's roll back the tape. @Eternally-Grateful claims that there are 2 natures in existence, which the Bible never mentions. He claims that one nature is human nature and the other nature is sin nature. So taking Adam as an example, I asked him how can someone perform a sin nature act (his definition of sin nature) while he still embodies human nature?

When Adam sinned, he exercised free moral agency without the influence of an internal corruption (James 1:14 – “each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own desire”)… yet desire itself is not identical with a “nature”… temptation did not come from within a “sin nature” but through volitional choice, just as angels fell without a sin nature (2 Peter 2:4… Jude 6… Job 15:15 – “He puts no trust even in His holy ones”).

Thus, the performance of a sinful act by Adam does not require the prior existence of a “sin nature”… it only requires free will and the potential to choose self over God. Therefore, the question confuses categories---sinful behavior does not require a sin nature to exist first… it was the result of disobedience, not the cause.

J.

 

[synergy]

When Adam sinned, he exercised free moral agency without the influence of an internal corruption (James 1:14 – “each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own desire”)… yet desire itself is not identical with a “nature”… temptation did not come from within a “sin nature” but through volitional choice, just as angels fell without a sin nature (2 Peter 2:4… Jude 6… Job 15:15 – “He puts no trust even in His holy ones”).

Thus, the performance of a sinful act by Adam does not require the prior existence of a “sin nature”… it only requires free will and the potential to choose self over God. Therefore, the question confuses categories---sinful behavior does not require a sin nature to exist first… it was the result of disobedience, not the cause.

J.

Yes. So @Eternally-Grateful is incorrect in thinking that there are 2 natures. There is only the human nature coupled with free will.

 

[Johann]

Yes. So @Eternally-Grateful is incorrect in thinking that there are 2 natures. There is only the human nature coupled with free will.

I might get in trouble here but yes, we only have ONE nature, according to Scripture, but commentaries will say otherwise.

J.

 

[synergy]

I might get in trouble here but yes, we only have ONE nature, according to Scripture, but commentaries will say otherwise.

J.

Concerning this topic, call on me if people start giving you trouble for aligning yourself with the Bible.

 

[Johann]

Concerning this topic, call on me if people start giving you trouble for aligning yourself with the Bible.

I deeply appreciate this, coming from you brother.

J.

 

[Red Baker]

@synery @GodsGrace @MTMattie @Jim @Johann @ProDeo @civic @Eternally-Grateful

Let's roll back the tape. @Eternally-Grateful claims that there are 2 natures in existence for humans, which the Bible never mentions. He claims that one nature is human nature and the other nature is sin nature. So taking Adam as an example, I asked him how can someone perform a sin nature act (his definition of sin nature) while he still embodies human nature?

The correct way of looking at the situation is that there's one nature coupled with free will, as you correctly said.

The biblical way of understanding the scriptures is to trust the Spirit of God, its Author, to deliver you the truth. @Eternally-Grateful is correct there are two fleshly nature, one proceeding from Adam which is sinful, with no good thing proceeding from that nature whereby spiritual acts can be done pleasing to God, impossible!

Jesus, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, whose Father was not Adam, but the Holy Ghost, was made in the likeness of flesh, for he was separate from sinners in his conception and birth. He was indeed Emmanuel, meaning, God WITH US ~yet, he also was the Son of man, fully flesh and blood ~ with no sin dwelling in his flesh as all children of men have from conception.

Psalms 51:5​

“Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

Not so was this true of the Son of God:

Luke 1:35​

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

This could never be said of any other person born of flesh, except the Son of God. If you do not understand this truth, you better tread lightly and not deny or try to refute this blessed truth, for God will not take lightly any person rejecting his Son's birth and the manner in which He was conceived.

The difference between Adam and Christ is this: Christ being God manifest in the flesh had the gift of immutability and could NOT SIN, Adam did not possess this attribute that only God possess. Just as A.W.Pink we quoted above said:

But not only was Christ sinless, He was impeccable, that is, incapable of sinning. No attempt to set forth the doctrine of His wondrous and peerless person would be complete, without considering this blessed perfection. Sad indeed is it to behold the widespread ignorance thereon today, and sadder still to hear and read this precious truth denied. The last Adam differed from the first Adam in His impeccability. Christ was not only able to overcome temptation, but He was unable to be overcome by it. Necessarily so, for He was ‘the Almighty’ (Rev. 1:8). True, Christ was man, but He was the God-man, and as such, absolute Master and Lord of all things. Being Master of all things—as His dominion over the winds and waves, diseases and death, clearly demonstrated—it was impossible that anything should master Him.

All praise be to the Lamb of God.

 

[brightfame52]

I found an interesting article on freewill offerings, and hw this has been misconstrued to mean man has a freewill in relation to God, its in 3 parts and its out of Vincent Cheungs article on the " the author of sin"

17. Freewill Offerings and Human Freedom As an attempt to refute the fact that the Bible never says that man has free will, there are people who point out that the Bible mentions "freewill offerings" in a number of places, and on this basis they assert that the Bible therefore teaches free will or that man has free will. In the NIV, see: Exodus 35:29, 36:3; Leviticus 7:16, 22:18, 21, 23, 23:38; Numbers 15:3, 29:39; Deuteronomy 12:6, 17, 16:10; 2 Chronicles 31:14; Ezra 1:4, 6, 2:68, 3:5, 7:16, 8:28; Psalms 54:6; Ezekiel 46:12; Amos 4:5. The term is not always rendered "freewill offerings," but in places where the NIV and NASB offer such a translation, the KJV sometimes says "free offerings," "voluntary offerings," and "willing offerings." This is one of the strangest objections against the denial of free will. It seizes upon the English term that is common between the verses cited and the topic of divine sovereignty and human freedom. However, there is no relevance in substance between these verses and the topic. Freedom is relative – you are free from something. We say that man has no free will because in discussing divine sovereignty and human freedom, we are discussing the metaphysical relationship between God and man. It has to do with the manner and extent that God exercises control over man's thoughts and actions. Thus in such a context, when we ask whether man has free will, we are asking whether man is free from God or from God's control in any sense. Since the biblical teaching is that God exercises constant and comprehensive control over all of man's thoughts and actions, the conclusion is that man has no free will. He has zero freedom relative to God. Since God is the absolute reference point, to say that man has no freedom relative to God is also to say that man has no freedom in the absolute sense. Whether man possesses freedom in a relative sense, or freedom relative to persons and things other than God (people, objects, and forces, etc.), is another question, and one that does not have to be addressed in the discussion about divine sovereignty and human freedom. However, for the sake of completeness, we can affirm that man has some freedom relative to other creatures. No human being can control me in a way or to an extent like God's absolute control over my thoughts and actions. This does not mean that I have "free will," since we are talking about our relationship with God, and not with other creatures. Popular Calvinism confuses the issue.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace @MTMattie @Jim @Johann @ProDeo @civic @Eternally-Grateful @synergy

What exactly are you saying RB?

Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe! Simply stated: Jesus by himself, by his faith, obedience, and righteousness, secured our eternal redemption for us. His spotless life was the payment offered unto God for our sins, and by his resurrection from the dead, show us that the payment was accepted and our sin debt has been fully paid once and for all, to add to what Christ has done for God's elect.

Are you saying that since Jesus died on the cross for us... we are no longer required to DO ANYTHING in regards to our salvation?

Nothing as far as adding to what Christ has done for our sins to be legally forgiven, from sin and condemnation.

Does this mean we do not need to be baptized?

Absolutely not. Even though water baptism within itself has not one thing to do with one's sin being legally forgiven, yet if one truly believes after they have heard the truth, then they should arise immediately and be baptized INTO the rellgion/faith of Jesus Christ and commit their life to serving him ~ Per Acts 10:47,48

No need to obey God?
No good works for the Kingdom here on earth?
No feeding the poor?
Nothing??

All of these and more!

We did not do anything by OURSELVES....
we work with God in order to be pleasing to Him.
In order to do what Jesus stated:
John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


Which commandments would those be RB??

We work with God? Let Paul tell us how he live his life:

Galatians 2:20​

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

Christ secured the very life I now live in flesh FOR ME, by God creating Christ's image IN ME, that is, in my new man, and by that man, I live my Christian life, even though the old man of sin and death is still with me, but, by the faith Of Christ (his image in me) I'm more than conquerors through Christ who loved me and gave himself for me.

Romans 8:37​

“Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.”

Selah! May the Lord Jesus Christ alone be praised.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

Unless one is calvinist, of course.
They believe God put sin into us.
That God created sin.

Truly, I know of no Calvinist who believe this, maybe you do, but, I have been around thousands of them and never have heard them said this.

God created sin only in this sense, he knew that creation of itself would reveal the knowledge of sin, (good and evil) since he "alone" hates and cannot sin.

 

[Johann]

We work with God? Let Paul tell us how he live his life:

We do not "work with God" in a co-equal sense as if we contribute autonomous power to divine acts.

Yet biblically and theologically, especially in missionary contexts and sanctification, Scripture permits the language of "working together"-where God's grace initiates and empowers, and man's response is required (Philippians 2:12–13: “work out your salvation... for it is God who works in you”).

Thus, properly qualified: We cooperate by response, obedience, and submission--not by originating or controlling divine action.

J.