An Article on free will

[Selah]

If the angels sinned even in the very presence of YHWH (cf. Job 15:15; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6), what caused them to fall? What does Scripture reveal about the origin of their rebellion?

J.

Hi my brother. I believe one-third of the angels fell when they followed Lucifer when he rebelled against God. These angels aligned themselves with Lucifer and did not stay faithful to the LORD.

Isaiah 14:12-15 (NKJV) 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

 

[Selah]

We do not "work with God" in a co-equal sense as if we contribute autonomous power to divine acts.

Yet biblically and theologically, especially in missionary contexts and sanctification, Scripture permits the language of "working together"-where God's grace initiates and empowers, and man's response is required (Philippians 2:12–13: “work out your salvation... for it is God who works in you”).

Thus, properly qualified: We cooperate by response, obedience, and submission--not by originating or controlling divine action.

J.

Very good answer! And even in our studies of His Word, God’s Spirit works in us to understand. God is so generous—so good to His children.

 

[Johann]

Very good answer! And even in our studies of His Word, God’s Spirit works in us to understand. God is so generous—so good to His children.

Correct @Selah.


John 14:26
“But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit... He will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” [read the context]
teach - Greek: διδάξει (didaxei, future active indicative, from διδάσκω)
bring to your remembrance - Greek: ὑπομνήσει (hypomnēsei, future active indicative, from ὑπομιμνῄσκω)

2. 1 Corinthians 2:12–13
“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth...”
have received - Greek: ἐλάβομεν (elabomen, aorist active indicative, from λαμβάνω)
we might know - Greek: εἰδῶμεν (eidōmen, perfect subjunctive active, from οἶδα)
teacheth - Greek: διδακτοῖς (didaktois, dative plural adjective, “taught”)

3. Romans 8:14
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
are led - Greek: ἄγονται (agontai, present passive indicative, from ἄγω)

4. Ephesians 1:17–18
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ... may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened...”
may give - Greek: δῴη (dōē, aorist active optative, from δίδωμι)
being enlightened - Greek: πεφωτισμένους (pephōtismenous, perfect passive participle, from φωτίζω)

5. 1 John 2:27
“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things...”
abideth - Greek: μένει (menei, present active indicative, from μένω)
teach - Greek: διδάσκῃ (didaskē, present active subjunctive, from διδάσκω)
teacheth - Greek: διδάσκει (didaskei, present active indicative, from διδάσκω)

Did you notice all the present participles... and of course, we should always determine the context, the recipients... to rightly divide the word of God.

God bless.

J.

 

[Kermos]

@Kermos

Romans 9 has to be in sync what Paul said in Romans 1:28-32, key verse 24, the reprobate God uses for His own purpose, glory.

Rom 9:22 - What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

A person (pharaoh included) does not become a reprobate or vessel of wrath easily, only after God's enduring patience after having zillion of chances to repent.

And pharaoh had many chances, he saw (experienced) God's miracles but hardened his heart every time.

And, Romans 9 has to be in sync with Genesis 1:1, so all of Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:28-32 and Romans 1:24 and Romans 1:20 and Romans 1:5-7 must sync in the Truth (John 14:6) that Holy Spirit inspired Paul wrote in Romans chapter 9.

God's Sovereign control over Jew and Gentile (Romans 1:5-7), even over reprobates (Romans 1:24) as you put it, reveals that God sovereignly controls the entirety of His creation (Genesis 1:1) as the Potter who prepared beforehand vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), and Holy Scripture reveals further that vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22), including pharaoh (Romans 9:17), are not prepared beforehand to be vessels of mercy.

You wrote "A person (pharaoh included) does not become a reprobate or vessel of wrath easily, only after God's enduring patience after having zillion of chances to repent" by which you convey that you wholeheartedly believe that "A person (pharaoh included) is a vessel of mercy before the person is a vessel of wrath having exhausted God's enduring patience with a zillion of chances to repent"; therefore, you disbelieve:

• "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as seed" (Romans 9:8) and
• "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:11-13) and
• "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men" (Romans 5:12) and "many died through one man's trespass" (Romans 5:15) and climacticly
• "No one is good except God alone (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18, see also Romans 3:12)) thus a person is an evil vessel of wrath as the default state of being apart from God and the only Way (John 14:6) for a person to become a vessel of mercy is caused by Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6) - the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12/2)!

Also, you wrote "pharaoh had many chances, he saw (experienced) God's miracles but hardened his heart every time." which requires deeper examination:

​

You wrote "pharaoh had many chances", but pharaoh did not choose God.​

​

You wrote "he saw (experienced) God's miracles" - in like fashion free-willians have the Holy Scripture in their hands, but pharaoh did not choose God.​

​

You wrote "he hardened his heart every time" (both he and his referring to pharaoh), yet your thoughts starkly contrast against Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul writing that God hardened pharaoh's heart with "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills" (Romans 9:17-18).​

​

The 3 of you (@GodsGrace and @Johann for your hearty approval to @ProDeo (Romans 1:32)) do the work that you do, that is, downgrading the Sovereign Holy God identified in (Romans 9:18-23) as per your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21), at your own peril!

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN POTTER!!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There are such a thing as altruistic deeds, where no wage or reward is expected. Charities are altruistic. So your "work" definition fails.

lol. Talk about trying to force yourself to continue to believe a lie

The wage of sin is death,

To be saved, that wage must be paid for.

Thats what Jesus did on the cross.

Jesus said, it is finished, He did not say ok, I did my part. now you do yours.

You're sounding Monergistic and Calvinistic. God does not repent for you. He grants repentance but only after you've repented. I take no credit for that as everything good comes from God.

Your stuck on isms. Put them away and listen to what people are saying

It is the work of God we believe

I did not come to repentance on my own.

I did not come to faith on my own.

I did not conjure it up in myself.

John made it clear.

John 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I received Christ. because God gave me that power. I did not get it on my own. i did not will myself to heaven.

If you think you willed yourself to heaven, Well good lu8ck boasting in self.

Just as I thought you would do. You did not stand behind your words, took no ownership of them, and instead diverted focus to James. Kids have this tee-shirt that has an arrow picture pointing sideways and says "it's his fault". You reminded me of that shirt.

Your hurting your own argument, I just used James words. Your argument is with James, not me

James 2: 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Mere beliefg (which is what these people had. Will not save you

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS.

No faith = no salvation.

what is the evidence of no faith? No works.

again, Not for God (God knows and determined when he saved you or did not save you) but before men, more importantly for yourself.

We're talking about the word of God here so you should care.

I am talking about the word of God. And I do care.

the word of God can not contradict..

The Justification that James is talking about is God's Justification. Instead, you're promoting Man's justification of us. Two diametrically opposed views.

No.

You have james ripping paul apart and calling paul a liar.

Not all works are the same. Your repentance saved you.

My repentance was not my work.

What will it take to convince you of this?

So you won't back up your beliefs. That's how much you believe in what you said. You've made my case.

lol.. In other words. You have nothing.

Both James and Paul are saying the exact same thing: Justification is by faith plus faithful good works together. This you can take it as literal, perfectly synched, with absolutely no chance of opposing each other.

No they are not

Paul spoke to legalists. people like you. to try to convince you that it is not faith plus works.

James spoke to licentious people. who were hearers only not doers. He wanted them to look inside. and see that had no living faith. if they did they would work.

Context of james and paul destroys your thinking

again, get of religion and look to the word

 

[MTMattie]

@synery @GodsGrace @MTMattie @Jim @Johann @ProDeo @civic @Eternally-Grateful

The biblical way of understanding the scriptures is to trust the Spirit of God, its Author, to deliver you the truth. @Eternally-Grateful is correct there are two fleshly nature, one proceeding from Adam which is sinful, with no good thing proceeding from that nature whereby spiritual acts can be done pleasing to God, impossible!

Jesus, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, whose Father was not Adam, but the Holy Ghost, was made in the likeness of flesh, for he was separate from sinners in his conception and birth. He was indeed Emmanuel, meaning, God WITH US ~yet, he also was the Son of man, fully flesh and blood ~ with no sin dwelling in his flesh as all children of men have from conception.

Psalms 51:5​

“Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

Not so was this true of the Son of God:

Luke 1:35​

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

This could never be said of any other person born of flesh, except the Son of God. If you do not understand this truth, you better tread lightly and not deny or try to refute this blessed truth, for God will not take lightly any person rejecting his Son's birth and the manner in which He was conceived.

The difference between Adam and Christ is this: Christ being God manifest in the flesh had the gift of immutability and could NOT SIN, Adam did not possess this attribute that only God possess. Just as A.W.Pink we quoted above said:

All praise be to the Lamb of God.

Understood, except... I repeat. If Jesus could not, SIN, then how could he be tempted.

There is something wrong the way the bible words this.

I wont say the translators as they all are translated the same way... it would have to be by the original author, and if they were inspired from God to write those words.... it is a mystery how someone who could not sin could be tempted.

 

[Jim]

@GodsGrace @MTMattie @Jim @Johann @ProDeo @civic @Eternally-Grateful @synergy

Absolutely not. Even though water baptism within itself has not one thing to do with one's sin being legally forgiven, yet if one truly believes after they have heard the truth, then they should arise immediately and be baptized INTO the rellgion/faith of Jesus Christ and commit their life to serving him ~ Per Acts 10:47,48

Baptism is not the cause of the forgiveness of sin. It is the occasion, the time, in the life of the repentant believer when God forgives his sin and gives him the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit. It is the occasion, the time, in the life of the repentant believer when God justifies, regenerates and initially sanctifies him. It is when the repentant believer is born again of water and Spirit.

 

[Johann]

The 3 of you (@GodsGrace and @Johann for your hearty approval to @ProDeo (Romans 1:32)) do the work that you do, that is, downgrading the Sovereign Holy God identified in (Romans 9:18-23) as per your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21), at your own peril!

Please refrain from tagging me in future posts, @Kermos. I am not here to seek affirmation nor to participate in discussions that, in my view, diminish the majesty of the Sovereign and Holy God. I also believe that your recent comments may be in violation of this forum’s rules.

J.

Understood, except... I repeat. If Jesus could not, SIN, then how could he be tempted.

Think EXTERNALLY, not internally Rella. All our Lord's temptations were from the outside, not internally.

J.

 

[Jim]

lol. Talk about trying to force yourself to continue to believe a lie

The wage of sin is death,

To be saved, that wage must be paid for.

Thats what Jesus did on the cross.

Jesus said, it is finished, He did not say ok, I did my part. now you do yours.

Well then, that must mean that absolutely everyone has been saved. If the one being saved has no part in salvation, then all must be saved.

Your stuck on isms. Put them away and listen to what people are saying

It is the work of God we believe

I did not come to repentance on my own.

I did not come to faith on my own.

I did not conjure it up in myself.

John made it clear.

John 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Receiving Him, believing in His name, is our part.

I received Christ. because God gave me that power. I did not get it on my own. i did not will myself to heaven.

That is not what John 1:10-13 says. It says that God gave you the power to become a child of God because you received Him, because you believed in Him.

 

[Jim]

Think EXTERNALLY, not internally Rella. All our Lord's temptations were from the outside, not internally.

J.

If what you say is true, why would Satan even bother with trying to tempt Jesus? Was Satan so stupid not to understand that? Or could you perhaps be incorrect in your view of it?

 

[Jim]

@synery @GodsGrace @MTMattie @Jim @Johann @ProDeo @civic @Eternally-Grateful

The biblical way of understanding the scriptures is to trust the Spirit of God, its Author, to deliver you the truth. @Eternally-Grateful is correct there are two fleshly nature, one proceeding from Adam which is sinful, with no good thing proceeding from that nature whereby spiritual acts can be done pleasing to God, impossible!

Jesus, the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, whose Father was not Adam, but the Holy Ghost, was made in the likeness of flesh, for he was separate from sinners in his conception and birth. He was indeed Emmanuel, meaning, God WITH US ~yet, he also was the Son of man, fully flesh and blood ~ with no sin dwelling in his flesh as all children of men have from conception.

Psalms 51:5​

“Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

Not so was this true of the Son of God:

Luke 1:35​

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

This could never be said of any other person born of flesh, except the Son of God. If you do not understand this truth, you better tread lightly and not deny or try to refute this blessed truth, for God will not take lightly any person rejecting his Son's birth and the manner in which He was conceived.

The difference between Adam and Christ is this: Christ being God manifest in the flesh had the gift of immutability and could NOT SIN, Adam did not possess this attribute that only God possess. Just as A.W.Pink we quoted above said:

All praise be to the Lamb of God.

That entire argument has been postulated by the adherents of false doctrine of original sin and the even worse doctrine of total depravity. It is absolutely false.

Jesus was born free from sin just as was Adam, Eve and every other human being. Sin is not the result of the male sperm.

 

[Johann]

If what you say is true, why would Satan even bother with trying to tempt Jesus? Was Satan so stupid not to understand that? Or could you perhaps be incorrect in your view of it?

This is not about my personal opinion--it is about what the Scriptures themselves declare. You have access to the same tools, and I have already carefully exegeted this passage according to the text. "Thy word is truth" (John 17:17), and that is the standard by which all claims must be tested. "Search the Scriptures..." (John 5:39).

My conclusions are grounded in the biblical record, not in speculation.

J.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So who created sinful nature? You need to be clear on who created what.

Once again

the sinful nature was created when adam sinned. There was a barrier placed between God and man. This caused a hole in the heart of man that only God could fill. Since God is unable to fill that void left when we turned from him so we need to fill that hole ourselves. which we do with sin. We need to satisfy our own needs ie deeds of the flesh.

Jesus did nto have this problem. There was no separation between God and Jesus

I already made it clear that nobody has a sinful nature.

And your WRONG

Why? Again, because God is not in the business of creating anything sinful.

You fail to understand reality

You were born dead to God (spiritually dead) hence you had a nature to sin.

That is sinful desires. Our human nature contains those desires that we fight against by abiding with the Holy Spirit.

Yes AFTER we are saved. Not before.

Your reluctance to actually do what you preach goes a long way into showing who exactly needs to study more.

You seem to have alot of pride. How about talk to me as a person. not like you know it all.. Stop telling me w3hat you think I am doing, and talk to me about what i say. and stop falsly accusing.

I know its hard for some people. but it is possible

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Looks like you're going around the same circles I've been following for years.
No answer synergy.

What made Adam sin if the sin nature was not yet in man?

FREE WILL

Not a nature to sin.

I DO, however, believe we have one now.

I also know God did not put it within us....our soul, I'd say.

So how did it get there?

No answer.
Unless one is calvinist, of course.
They believe God put sin into us.
That God created sin.

They do? Interesting

We know this cannot be true.
So back to the drawing board.

If you ever get an answer...
keep me in mind.....

Answers have been given,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You said:
HEAR GOD'S WORD AND ACT ON IT....
This...ACTING ON IT part is not liked by many Christians.
James 1:22
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

Not merely hearers
WHO DELUDE THEMSELVES.


Those who do not act on God's word...
are deluding themselves.

If they never act on Gods word. it as much as proves they never had faith.

Which is the point James was trying to make

 

[synergy]

lol. Talk about trying to force yourself to continue to believe a lie
The wage of sin is death,
To be saved, that wage must be paid for.
Thats what Jesus did on the cross.
Jesus said, it is finished, He did not say ok, I did my part. now you do yours.

It was the Atonement that was finished. You didn't even exist at that time. How can a non-entity be saved at that time that does not even exist? Your imagination is flaring.

It's only when you repent do your sins get nailed to the Cross.

Your stuck on isms. Put them away and listen to what people are saying
It is the work of God we believe
I did not come to repentance on my own.
I did not come to faith on my own.
I did not conjure it up in myself.
John made it clear.
John 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I received Christ. because God gave me that power. I did not get it on my own. i did not will myself to heaven.
If you think you willed yourself to heaven, Well good lu8ck boasting in self.

Nobody is saying that you save yourself on your own. That's a strawman. Our relationship is one of synergy. We believe (present active verb) and God saves us. Stop with the strawmen.

Your hurting your own argument, I just used James words. Your argument is with James, not me

James 2: 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Mere beliefg (which is what these people had. Will not save you
Paul said we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS.
No faith = no salvation.
what is the evidence of no faith? No works.
again, Not for God (God knows and determined when he saved you or did not save you) but before men, more importantly for youryourselfI

Notice that the word "justification" is nowhere to be found in the verse you quoted. That proves that we are not to seek justification from man but from God. That's where you go terribly wrong. That's why you refuse to follow up on your claims because deep inside you know your interpretation is wrong.

I am talking about the word of God. And I do care.
the word of God can not contradict..

That's why both James and Paul are perfectly synched in that Justification by God is by faith and faithful good works.

No.
You have james ripping paul apart and calling paul a liar.

The Bible is ripping apart your calvinist monergistic view of James.

My repentance was not my work.
What will it take to convince you of this?
lol.. In other words. You have nothing.

If you didn't repent then who did your repenting? God? Are you seriously saying that God repented for you?

No they are not
Paul spoke to legalists. people like you. to try to convince you that it is not faith plus works.
James spoke to licentious people. who were hearers only not doers. He wanted them to look inside. and see that had no living faith. if they did they would work.
Context of james and paul destroys your thinking
again, get of religion and look to the word

So you're ok with giving us a view of James and Paul that contradict each other.
You said Paul stands for "not faith and wirks".
James stands for both faith and works. (James 2:24).
You'd best revisit your teachings on how the principles of logic work and get back to me when you do. Until then, take care.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes. There's a lot of confusion about the word "work". Many people take Paul's verses about works of the Law and incorrectly say that all works should be trashed. Not all works are works of the Law. Most people (me included) can't even remember all 10 commandments and yet there are a gazillion good works out there being done daily by many charities and charitable people.

No confusion about the word work
1. It is something we do of our own power.
2. It is done to gain something
3. It is what people do to prepair to run a race. to in the end, recieve a reward.

If it is done to earn keep or keep from losing salvation. Then it is not of grace it is of works..

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace;

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes impeccable just like the Father

Was Jesus tempted?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Indeed.

The idea that Christ could fail is unthinkable.

Asking the question -- could Christ fail? -- is answering the question.

If he could not fail at any chance, then he could not sin, hence he could not be tempted.

hence he does not know what we go through. And his sacrifice is in effect invalid.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let's roll back the tape. @Eternally-Grateful claims that there are 2 natures in existence for humans, which the Bible never mentions. He claims that one nature is human nature and the other nature is sin nature. So taking Adam as an example, I asked him how can someone perform a sin nature act (his definition of sin nature) while he still embodies human nature?

The correct way of looking at the situation is that there's one nature coupled with free will, as you correctly said.

We have a human nature

We also have the old man (sin nature)

the old man was crucified when we came to christ.

But hey, if you want to keep fighting. Feel free.