An Article on free will

[synergy]

@synergy @Johann @Jim @MTMattie @GodsGrace @Kermos @brightfame52 @civic

I'm going to finish answering your post, in the meantime, I would like you or your friends to answer this question for me:

Can a person be born again, yet be an "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, due to a few factors:

A.) unable to eat the meat of word, because they are still on milk;

The Corinthian (still on milk) believers were already believers so they do not support the heresy of regeneration before belief.

B.) never been heard or, taught certain truths;

Gnosticism does not support your case either, as @GodsGrace smartly pointed out already.

C.) If heard and taught, just refuse to see the truth, because of pride in going about to establish their own righteousness, even though they love, fear and have a true zeal for God.

Only a split dual personality can base righteousness solely on himself and solely on Christ. Schizophrenia does not make your case either.

The Baseball season has started and in your case it is three strikes and you're out.

 

[Red Baker]

@Johann

Yes. Actually an excellent question.

Brother, you are the only one that address this with scriptures, some of which I was thinking on when I posed those few questions.

Scripture explicitly teaches that born-again believers can remain at a "milk" stage for a considerable time, even when they should have advanced to "solid food."

Hebrews 5:12–14 (ESV):
"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God.
You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."

1 Corinthians 3:1–2 (ESV):
"But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready..."

Yes.
Scripture gives numerous examples of believers being ignorant of important truths simply because they had not yet been taught.

Agreed ~so, when we all were on the milk of the word, which we all were, then it could be rightly said of us, that we were not yet believers in certain biblical truths, thereby an unbeliever ~ let me give an example from my own life's experience as a Christian.

I started out in a fundamental Independence (I must make sure I add this, as I was first taught) Baptist church, that were synergistic as far as the doctrine soteriology to the core~I can truthfully say that I was an unbeliever in Monergism soteriology being ignorant of the scriptures. The apostles in the gospel are an perfect example of what I'm saying. Christ privately corrected some of their understanding that naturally men would embrace without having a spiritual understanding of the truth.

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Yes.
Scripture gives numerous examples of believers being ignorant of important truths simply because they had not yet been taught.

Acts 18:24–26 (ESV) — Apollos:
"Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus.
He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures.
He had been instructed in the way of the Lord.
And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John.
He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him,
they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately."


Apollos was a sincere, fervent believer, but lacked complete knowledge-- until corrected privately and gently.

Also-

Acts 19:1–7 — The Ephesian "disciples":
They had believed but had not even heard that there was a Holy Spirit!

Thus, lack of teaching can cause born-again believers to hold incomplete or incorrect theology without negating the authenticity of their regeneration.

Brother, we agree ~I was thinking about Acts 19 when I posed that one question. Here men never had heard whether or not there was an Holy Ghost, thereby they were not believers in such an doctrine, though a truth clearly taught throughout the scriptures beginning with Genesis 1:1 of all places. They were unbeliever in one sense, though not in the same sense which the Sadducees were ~ the Sadducees flat out rejected spirits, angels, truly the word of God all together from the teachings of the scriptures which they did hear, but rejected. The scriptures never once hinted that the Sadducees had zeal, fear, or love for the scriptures, not once do we read this of them. So we agree with you:

Thus, lack of teaching can cause born-again believers to hold incomplete or incorrect theology without negating the authenticity of their regeneration.

Yes, but with careful distinctions.
Regeneration breaks the dominion of sin (Romans 6:14) but does not immediately eradicate all pride, stubbornness, or misconceptions.

It breaks the condemnation of sin, and over time its dominion as we grows in grace and knowledge of the truth. We agree that immediately the warfare of a born again child of God begins at the new birth between the two natures, the flesh and the new man where the Spirit lives, yet strength to overcome is given as we grow in faith and knowledge of the truth. With your statement we agree overall ~ pride is never eradicate from our hearts as long as we live in this body of SIN and DEATH, never. We see this in the scriptures even in the life of the apostles, sad to say, yet true.

Luke 22:24​

“And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.”

It is in our hearts as much as it grieves us, it is there.

Though Paul speaks about unbelieving Jews, the principle applies:
Even among God's covenant people, pride and self-righteousness can obscure or resist divine truth, despite genuine zeal.

Among Christians, a parallel can be seen--

Brother you are so correct! I have been converted on so many truths since I first started out, so many. Some of which I have even first rejected! Speaking mostly concerning eschatology, where I have made a 360 degree conversion from when I first begun and was first taught.

Thus, regeneration does not make pride or self-righteousness impossible — it only means these will not define the person's final destiny if they are truly born again.

Amen my brother. Christian's can go from almost no faith, to strong faith, or at least stronger. I have learned that every act of sin on my part is nothing more than an act of unbelief! The more we believe the less we sin.

 

[Red Baker]

@synergy

The Baseball season has started and in your case it is three strikes and you're out.

You are playing softball, one day you might learn how to play fast pitch baseball with the big boys, but only a few are chosen out of millions, and so far, it does not look good for you. You might want to consider another vocation.

 

[synergy]

@synergy

You are playing softball, one day you might learn how to play fast pitch baseball with the big boys, but only a few are chosen out of millions, and so far, it does not look good for you. You might want to consider another vocation.

That's just sour grapes on your part because we exposed the gnostic and schizophrenic underpinnings of your beliefs. Your total inability to offer any semblance of a counterargument shows that your gnostic and schizophrenic beliefs have crashed and burned.

 

[Johann]

@Johann

Brother, you are the only one that address this with scriptures, some of which I was thinking on when I posed those few questions.

Agreed ~so, when we all were on the milk of the word, which we all were, then it could be rightly said of us, that we were not yet believers in certain biblical truths, thereby an unbeliever ~ let me give an example from my own life's experience as a Christian.

I started out in a fundamental Independence (I must make sure I add this, as I was first taught) Baptist church, that were synergistic as far as the doctrine soteriology to the core~I can truthfully say that I was an unbeliever in Monergism soteriology being ignorant of the scriptures. The apostles in the gospel are an perfect example of what I'm saying. Christ privately corrected some of their understanding that naturally men would embrace without having a spiritual understanding of the truth.

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Brother, we agree ~I was thinking about Acts 19 when I posed that one question. Here men never had heard whether or not there was an Holy Ghost, thereby they were not believers in such an doctrine, though a truth clearly taught throughout the scriptures beginning with Genesis 1:1 of all places. They were unbeliever in one sense, though not in the same sense which the Sadducees were ~ the Sadducees flat out rejected spirits, angels, truly the word of God all together from the teachings of the scriptures which they did hear, but rejected. The scriptures never once hinted that the Sadducees had zeal, fear, or love for the scriptures, not once do we read this of them. So we agree with you:


It breaks the condemnation of sin, and over time its dominion as we grows in grace and knowledge of the truth. We agree that immediately the warfare of a born again child of God begins at the new birth between the two natures, the flesh and the new man where the Spirit lives, yet strength to overcome is given as we grow in faith and knowledge of the truth. With your statement we agree overall ~ pride is never eradicate from our hearts as long as we live in this body of SIN and DEATH, never. We see this in the scriptures even in the life of the apostles, sad to say, yet true.

Luke 22:24​

“And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.”

It is in our hearts as much as it grieves us, it is there.

Brother you are so correct! I have been converted on so many truths since I first started out, so many. Some of which I have even first rejected! Speaking mostly concerning eschatology, where I have made a 360 degree conversion from when I first begun and was first taught.

Amen my brother. Christian's can go from almost no faith, to strong faith, or at least stronger. I have learned that every act of sin on my part is nothing more than an act of unbelief! The more we believe the less we sin.

Brother, even though we may not see eye to eye on every point of theology, I want you to know I respect you and appreciate your heart for the Lord.


Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

COLOSSIANS—NOTE ON 1:10 walk . . . worthy. This is a key NT concept that calls
the believer to live in a way that is consistent with his identification with the
Lord who saved him. See notes on Eph. 4:1 and Phil. 1:27. bearing fruit in
every good work. See notes on Rom. 1:13 and Phil. 4:17. Spiritual fruit is the
by-product of a righteous life. The Bible identifies spiritual fruit as leading
people to Christ (1 Cor. 16:15), praising God (Heb. 13:15), giving money (Rom.
15:26–28), living a godly life (Heb. 12:11), and displaying holy attitudes (Gal.
5:22–23). increasing in the knowledge of God. Spiritual growth cannot occur
apart from this knowledge (1 Pet. 2:2; 2 Pet. 3:18). The evidences of spiritual
growth include a deeper love for God’s word (Ps. 119:97), a more perfect
obedience (1 John 2:3–5), a strong doctrinal foundation (1 John 2:12–14), an
expanding faith (2 Thess. 1:3; cf. 2 Cor. 10:5), and a greater love for others (Phil.
1:9).
Notes from Johnny Mack Study Bible.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

@GodsGrace

Blessed are we!

Proverbs 18:22​

“Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.”

The same can be said of a woman that has a God fearing husband, she has indeed obtained favor of the LORD.

I suppose the women who were "denied" a God fearing husband, or any husband for that matter were because they have not
obtained favor of the Lord?.... possibly indicating that their predestination was set before the foundation of the world? (You know... one of the reprobates?)

 

[MTMattie]

First you must define "believer". And fortunately, it has little if anything to do with knowledge or comprehension of "certain biblical truths". Under the new covenant it is little more than acknowledgement, acceptance and trust in the truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That clearly is inferred by Jesus' words concerning the kingdom of God belonging to the likes of children (Mar 10:14-15}. That, I think, is the essence of what is implied win John 1:12. In reality it is probably an individual thing for what constitutes receiving Him and believing in His name as required in John 1:12. But, at whatever that level is for the individual, it is sufficient to be given the right to become a child of God, that is, to become one born of God.

And in keeping with that, one cannot be born again and yet be and unbeliever.

Ummm, I do agree with you but I will comment briefly on what RB said above about that....

RB said

Can a person be born again, yet be an "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, due to a few factors:

C.) If heard and taught, just refuse to see the truth, because of pride in going about to establish their own righteousness, even though they love, fear and have a true zeal for God.

He did not exactly ask if one can be born again and yet be and unbeliever... he defined it as "born again, yet be an "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, ?
I see this as a question that puts most in this debate if both sides can be born again or only one side if if the other simply fails to
recognize both sides of the coin.

Predestination V Free Will. Or the "order of Salvation....on whether regeneration precedes faith, or faith precedes regeneration.

Both sides of the fence argue that their beliefs come from the Holy Scriptures and, on here, at least, neither side seems willing to bend to even consider the other views. Even when shown by example in scripture.

So RB has a valid question here because I do not think there is anyone within these specific threads that does not love, fear and have a true zeal for God. With that being said, is it ever proper to question if someone could be born again that is not on your side of the fence in beliefs?

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie

I suppose the women who were "denied" a God fearing husband, or any husband for that matter were because they have not
obtained favor of the Lord?.... possibly indicating that their predestination was set before the foundation of the world? (You know... one of the reprobates?)

Nora, some men and women were given the power to not burn to a point where they did not need either, and so it was better for them not marry, so they could be fully committed unto the Lord, both body and spirit....Jesus and Paul had this gift from God, I do not. I've been with my wife since we were young teenagers, and have never been apart very much since then more than a few nights for traveling reasons more on my part than Sherry's. Sherry has helped the girls out some when they had to travel, by staying at their home to watch the grandchildren, but not more than two to three times and not more than two to three days at a times. I would be lost without her, she has been a great help meet for me from the Lord, and I trust I have been a good husband to her likewise.

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie

So RB has a valid question here because I do not think there is anyone within these specific threads that does not love, fear and have a true zeal for God. With that being said, is it ever proper to question if someone could be born again that is not on your side of the fence in beliefs?

I think it is not proper to question others salvation from sin and condemnation, "unless" that person flatly denies Jesus' deity on these forums where scriptures are debated, etc.

2nd John 1:7​

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

2nd John 1:9​

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

 

[Red Baker]

@synergy

That's just sour grapes on your part because we exposed the gnostic and schizophrenic underpinnings of your beliefs. Your total inability to offer any semblance of a counterargument shows that your gnostic and schizophrenic beliefs have crashed and burned.

Wishful thinking on your part. I just do not waste my time with men who boldly professes to have a part in their salvation from sin and condemnation by calling themselves~Mr. synergy. You will not be so bold when you stand before Jesus Christ in that day, I can assure you. The God of heaven does not take pleasure in folks who steal glory from His Son. You might would want to reconsider your bold spirit in teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven.

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie

Nora, some men and women were given the power to not burn to a point where they did not need either, and so it was better for them not marry, so they could be fully committed unto the Lord, both body and spirit....Jesus and Paul had this gift from God, I do not. I've been with my wife since we were young teenagers, and have never been apart very much since then more than a few nights for traveling reasons more on my part than Sherry's. Sherry has helped the girls out some when they had to travel, by staying at their home to watch the grandchildren, but not more than two to three times and not more than two to three days at a times. I would be lost without her, she has been a great help meet for me from the Lord, and I trust I have been a good husband to her likewise.

That is wonderful for you and Sherry. It is as it should be and was intended.

Many of us would have liked to have children. Many of us would have liked to have shared the kind of love that you and Sherry do. And not about sex. But about that special closeness that you both share.

You posted this..." some men and women were given the power to not burn to a point where they did not need"

Just remember this. Just because someone, either man or woman is not married does not mean they do not need.

Yes, we are told 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

But, then ... I best drop it because there is no way of escape for some things.

Be blessed

 

[Jim]

Ummm, I do agree with you but I will comment briefly on what RB said above about that....

RB said

He did not exactly ask if one can be born again and yet be and unbeliever... he defined it as "born again, yet be an "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, ?
I see this as a question that puts most in this debate if both sides can be born again or only one side if if the other simply fails to
recognize both sides of the coin.

Predestination V Free Will. Or the "order of Salvation....on whether regeneration precedes faith, or faith precedes regeneration.

Both sides of the fence argue that their beliefs come from the Holy Scriptures and, on here, at least, neither side seems willing to bend to even consider the other views. Even when shown by example in scripture.

So RB has a valid question here because I do not think there is anyone within these specific threads that does not love, fear and have a true zeal for God. With that being said, is it ever proper to question if someone could be born again that is not on your side of the fence in beliefs?

@MTMattie, Red's use of "unbeliever" as he did there is inconsistent with the scriptural use of the word. The scriptural unbeliever is one who does not believe the gospel that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. Moreover, I would argue against much of what Red would claim to be biblical truths.

 

[Kermos]

predestination/ predestined is in the N.T. just not the calvinist view of its meaning.

Gods foreknowledge precedes predestination.

Romans 8:29-30 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Englishman's Concordance

Acts 4:28 V-AIA-3S
GRK: βουλὴ σου προώρισεν γενέσθαι
NAS: and Your purpose predestined to occur.
KJV: counsel determined before to be done.
INT: purpose of you predetermined to come to pass

Romans 8:29 V-AIA-3S
GRK: προέγνω καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς
NAS: He also predestined [to become] conformed
KJV: also did predestinate [to be] conformed
INT: he foreknew also he predestined [to be] conformed to the

Romans 8:30 V-AIA-3S
GRK: οὓς δὲ προώρισεν τούτους καὶ
NAS: whom He predestined, He also
KJV: whom he did predestinate, them
INT: those whom moreover he predestined these also

1 Corinthians 2:7 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ἀποκεκρυμμένην ἣν προώρισεν ὁ θεὸς
NAS: God predestined before
KJV: God ordained before
INT: hidden which predetermined God

Ephesians 1:5 V-APA-NMS
GRK: προορίσας ἡμᾶς εἰς
NAS: He predestined us to adoption as sons
KJV: Having predestinated us unto
INT: having predestined us for

Ephesians 1:11 V-APP-NMP
GRK: καὶ ἐκληρώθημεν προορισθέντες κατὰ πρόθεσιν
NAS: we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according
KJV: we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to
INT: also we obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to [the] purpose

Strong's Greek 4309
6 Occurrences

Post in thread 'An Article on free will'

Thursday at 4:13 AM

PS

Predestination is also in the NT.....
unfortunately for you, it doesn't mean what you THINK it means.

Mainline Christianity is very firm RB.
Faith is a gift from God....

BUT
It is not IRRESISTIBLY forced upon those God chooses to save.

THAT is my theology.

predestination/ predestined is in the N.T. just not the calvinist view of its meaning.

Gods foreknowledge precedes predestination.

Romans 8:29-30 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30...

• civic

• 

Your heart injected time reference into Romans 8:29 in the fashion of "before", "after", "then", etc with your heart's "Gods foreknowledge precedes predestination", yet your chronological sequence does not exist in the Apostle Paul's writing:

​

for those, whom He foreknew and He predestined, to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers,​

(Romans 8:29)​

​

In the verse immediately after Romans 8:29, that is Romans 8:30, we find two occurrences of the time reference "then" indicating chronological sequence:

​

those, whom then He predestined, and these He called, and, whom He called, these also He justified. Whom, then, He justified, these also He glorified.​

(Romans 8:30)​

​

Romans 8:29 starts with a conjunction joining Romans 8:28 with Romans 8:29; in other words Romans 8:28 and Romans 8:29 and Romans 8:30 are a cohesive topic, so here is Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul's comprehensive topic:

​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose, for those, whom He foreknew and He predestined, to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers, those, whom then He predestined, and these He called, and, whom He called, these also He justified. Whom, then, He justified, these also He glorified.​

(Romans 8:28-30)​

​

@civic, you omitted the verse, Romans 8:28, from your quotation for some reason. Notice that Paul wrote God causes in Romans 8:28 which is bitter in Free-willians.

We Christians believe Almighty God causes that which God knows beforehand to unavoidably occur, that is, destined to occur beforehand, all according to God's Way (John 14:6).

 

[synergy]

@synergy

Wishful thinking on your part. I just do not waste my time with men who boldly professes to have a part in their salvation from sin and condemnation by calling themselves~Mr. synergy. You will not be so bold when you stand before Jesus Christ in that day, I can assure you. The God of heaven does not take pleasure in folks who steal glory from His Son. You might would want to reconsider your bold spirit in teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven.

Nobody is "stealing" anything from His Son. In fact, your response exposes the "Zero Sum" mentality that all Calvinists suffer from. Read my Thread that exposes that heretical thinking:

S

Thread 'Soli Deo Gloria and Calvinism's Zero-Sum Mentality'

Jan 6, 2024

The source of God's Glory is obviously God. We can all agree to that. What differentiates us from Calvinists is that Calvinists circumscribe/restrict the emanation/propagation of God's Glory to only God which flies in the face of Scripture. This aberration is called the Zero-Sum mentality and Calvinists suffer from that condition.

The Calvinistic Zero-Sum mentality dictates that any role we play must necessarily subtract from God's Glory. Anything that supposedly detracted from God's glory or supposedly obscured it is to be vigorously opposed. This mentality flies in the face of the...

• synergy

• 

 

[MTMattie]

@synergy

Wishful thinking on your part. I just do not waste my time with men who boldly professes to have a part in their salvation from sin and condemnation by calling themselves~Mr. synergy. You will not be so bold when you stand before Jesus Christ in that day, I can assure you. The God of heaven does not take pleasure in folks who steal glory from His Son. You might would want to reconsider your bold spirit in teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven

IT IS TIME.
For an explanation of what you mean by " teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven"
I have been following @synergy for a very long time and everytime I read a comment like this I rack my brain (what there is left ) and am totally cluelss what you are driving at.
You see @Red Baker . He and I and those on here that you disagree with are all in the same book. Close to the same page working toward the same paragraph and those of us here are not using any kind of works for forgivness or new birth.
Other then faith... of which we walk by faith, not by sight. The Bible is clear that our salvation is a gift from God received by faith, not earned by our good works. It is after faith we get our salvation.
No matter.... Faith is not a work. It is trusting in something you cannot prove.
We are told "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

For me it is not a work. It is a privilege.

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie, Red's use of "unbeliever" as he did there is inconsistent with the scriptural use of the word. The scriptural unbeliever is one who does not believe the gospel that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God. Moreover, I would argue against much of what Red would claim to be biblical truths.

@Jim I agree. He reads and understands far differently then you or I.

But he did say " "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, " not just unbeliever.

IOW, it hit me as his suggestion that because you and I and @synergy and others are not in the Calvin, High Calvin, or Predestined camp that he believes in , even though we love, fear and have a true zeal for God... he questions if a person who does not hold what HE considers to be biblical truths , can that person be born again, suggesting that if born again we would share what he considers to be biblical truths.

RB~
Can a person be born again, yet be an "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, due to a few factors:

Perhaps I am over thinking, but I dont think so in this case.

 

[synergy]

IT IS TIME.
For an explanation of what you mean by " teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven"
I have been following @synergy for a very long time and everytime I read a comment like this I rack my brain (what there is left ) and am totally cluelss what you are driving at.
You see @Red Baker . He and I and those on here that you disagree with are all in the same book. Close to the same page working toward the same paragraph and those of us here are not using any kind of works for forgivness or new birth.
Other then faith... of which we walk by faith, not by sight. The Bible is clear that our salvation is a gift from God received by faith, not earned by our good works. It is after faith we get our salvation.
No matter.... Faith is not a work. It is trusting in something you cannot prove.
We are told "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

For me it is not a work. It is a privilege.

You nailed it when you said it is a privilege. The source of God's Glory is always God and it is an absolute privilege that He does not restrict the emanation/propagation of His Glory to only Himself, as the Bible reveals. The Calvinist "Zero Sum" thinking is a false humility aberration that warps our understanding of very character of God Himself and how we relate to Him.

 

[Johann]

so, when we all were on the milk of the word, which we all were, then it could be rightly said of us, that we were not yet believers in certain biblical truths, thereby an unbeliever ~ let me give an example from my own life's experience as a Christian.

This is where I would strongly disagree--

Calling immature believers "unbelievers" can cause confusion or offense, because in Scripture, "unbeliever" (ἄπιστος, apistos) often refers to someone outside of Christ altogether - not simply someone immature or lacking full knowledge.
A better phrasing would acknowledge immaturity without mislabeling genuine believers as unbelievers.

Scripturally, even those on the "milk" of the Word (Hebrews 5:12–14; 1 Peter 2:2) are still believers — they are simply immature or lacking depth, not outside the faith.


Your example is good, but it would be better to frame it around growth rather than implying initial unbelief.

J.

 

[synergy]

@Jim I agree. He reads and understands far differently then you or I.

But he did say " "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, " not just unbeliever.

IOW, it hit me as his suggestion that because you and I and @synergy and others are not in the Calvin, High Calvin, or Predestined camp that he believes in , even though we love, fear and have a true zeal for God... he questions if a person who does not hold what HE considers to be biblical truths , can that person be born again, suggesting that if born again we would share what he considers to be biblical truths.

What he considers to be Biblical truths is his false-humility zero-sum approach as to how we relate to God. If that's what his born again beliefs are based on then he can keep them to himself

RB~
Can a person be born again, yet be an "unbeliever" in certain biblical truths, and even in much biblical truths, due to a few factors:

Perhaps I am over thinking, but I dont think so in this case.

In line with what Jim said, the Bible does reveal the bare essential beliefs that one must embody if he is to be saved as a Christian. Now that doesn't mean that a Christian must believe every thing that is to be known in the faith because who does?

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie

IT IS TIME.
For an explanation of what you mean by " teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven"

Nora, where have you been, for the last 15 years or so since you have known me?

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

Now, there is no man that has anything of excellency from himself; therefore the man that believes that he of his own power/free will/the means of his flesh apart from God made the difference in his salvation from sin and condemnation, from him that perishing in his sins, is a man that truly glories in his flesh, and not solely in God's power and grace alone.

The true foundation of Christian modesty is this ~ not to be self-complacent, as knowing that we are empty and void by nature of everything good, that in us, that is, in our flesh there is not good things, no, not one.... that, if God has implanted in us anything that is good through the new birth, we are so much the more debtors to his grace and power; and in truth, we must glory in nothing, because there is nothing that is our own worth gloring in.

You see @Red Baker . He and I and those on here that you disagree with are all in the same book. Close to the same page working toward the same paragraph and those of us here are not using any kind of works for forgivness or new birth.
Other then faith... of which we walk by faith, not by sight. The Bible is clear that our salvation is a gift from God received by faith, not earned by our good works. It is after faith we get our salvation.
No matter.... Faith is not a work. It is trusting in something you cannot prove.
We are told "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

Nora, your mistake and others as well on your side of the fence is this:

The Bible is clear that our salvation is a gift from God received by faith,

Salvation from sin and condemnation is not received by faith legally, but our salvation was secured by our surety Jesus Christ, by HIS OBEDIENCE, RIGHTEOUSNESS and FAITH, legally, not our!

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Nora, much can be added but enough to show you the error of the other side.

That being said, many Calvinist believes that that faith is the means of one being justified, yet say that it happen at the point faith is given to the sinner, which is also an error.

Our Faith is the evidence of one's free justification, not the means thereof! Even that being sa9id, our faith is so far from being perfect, which should prove to you and others it cannot be a means of justification, since the law requires perfection before it can declare one righteous. The resurrection of Jesus Christ and US IN HIM is that desertion of our free justification!

Romans 4:25​

“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

See also Ephesians 2:6-9!

No matter.... Faith is not a work.

Of course faith IS A WORK.

Matthew 23:23​

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”

1 John 3:23​

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

For me it is not a work. It is a privilege.

It is not a privilege for me, actually, I'm ashamed of my little faith at times, but very thankful that the life which I do live, I do so by the faith of the Son of God who love me and gave himself for me, that I may be able to please God while living in this body of sin and death. I'm much like the father of the child:

Mark 9:24​

“And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

Selah!