An Article on free will

[Johann]

Salvation from sin and condemnation is not received by faith legally, but our salvation was secured by our surety Jesus Christ, by HIS OBEDIENCE, RIGHTEOUSNESS and FAITH, legally, not our!

Not so fast--and let's not cause confusion, there are sincere believers here, asking excellent questions. And I can show you "our, your" faith as it stands written in Scriptures, but this is a rather "lengthy post" for the readers sake.


"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
(NASB)


ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι (este sesōsmenoi) = "you have been saved"

ἐστε (2nd person plural, present active indicative) = "you are"

σεσῳσμένοι (perfect passive participle masculine plural of σῴζω sōzō, "to save")

Perfect tense: the action was completed in the past with continuing results.

Passive voice: you did not save yourself — you were saved by another (God).

διὰ πίστεως (dia pisteōs) = "through faith"

διὰ + genitive (πίστεως, genitive singular of πίστις, "faith") means "through," emphasizing the means or instrumentality.

πίστις (pistis) = "faith, trust, belief," an active, reliant trust in God.


Salvation is through faith, not earned by human works, and it is God's action upon the believer.

2. Romans 3:28
Text:
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(NASB)



δικαιοῦσθαι (dikaiousthai) = "to be justified"

Present passive infinitive of δικαιόω (dikaioō, "to justify," "to declare righteous")

Passive voice again: the subject is acted upon by God.

πίστει (pistei) = "by faith"

πίστει, dative singular of πίστις

Dative case shows means or instrument - "by means of faith."


We are justified (declared righteous) not by law-keeping but by faith as the means.

3. Galatians 2:16

"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified."
(NASB)



οὐ δικαιοῦται (ou dikaioutai) = "is not justified"

3rd person singular present passive indicative of δικαιόω

Again, passive: justification is something done to us by God.

διὰ πίστεως (dia pisteōs) = "through faith"

ἐπιστεύσαμεν (episteusamen) = "we have believed"

1st person plural aorist active indicative of πιστεύω (pisteuō, "to believe, to have faith").


A man is not justified by law-keeping but through faith in Jesus Christ.

Faith is the doorway, and believing is the human response.

4. John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
(NASB)



πιστεύων (pisteuōn) = "believing"

Present active participle masculine singular of πιστεύω

Ongoing action: a life marked by continuing faith.

ἔχῃ (echē) = "may have"

Present active subjunctive 3rd singular of ἔχω (echō, "to have, to possess").


Eternal life is given to the one believing in the Son.
The ongoing character of faith matters- it's not a one-time act only but a trustful life lived in Him.

5. Romans 5:1
Text:
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
(NASB)



δικαιωθέντες (dikaiōthentes) = "having been justified"

Aorist passive participle masculine plural of δικαιόω

A completed action done by God: the believer has been declared righteous.

ἐκ πίστεως (ek pisteōs) = "by faith"

ἐκ + genitive: "out of" or "by means of" faith.


We are declared righteous by God on the basis of faith, and as a result, we have peace with Him.

The New Testament overwhelmingly presents salvation as a gift received by faith, not by works, not by merit, not by human achievement.

The Greek grammar (perfect and aorist passives especially) emphasizes that salvation is something God does to us, not something we earn.

Faith (πίστις, πιστεύω) is consistently the means God uses to unite the believer with Christ, resulting in justification, salvation, and eternal life.

By faith, through faith, out of faith---

Charles Spurgeon on Faith as a Proffered Hand:
"Faith is the empty hand stretched out to receive the gift of God's grace. Faith is not what saves you; it is Christ that saves you. Faith is the channel, not the fountain. You must not look to your hand, but to the Gift. Your faith is but the hand that lays hold of the Savior."
Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, "The Warrant of Faith" (No. 531)

And again, in another place he said:

"Faith is simply the hand that receives Christ’s pardon, not the cause of it. It is not what faith is, but what Christ is, that saves the soul."
Charles Spurgeon, Sermon, "The Sinner’s Friend" (No. 458)

There are only 248 occurrences of the Verb pisteuo (of which 99 are found in John's Gospel), but in two cases besides those noted in iv, it is followed by a direct object of the thing believed, as well as a Dative of the person. These are Joh_4:21; Joh_14:11 -, and are therefore noted under both ii and iii.


Nouns.
1. pistis (*1) = faith. The living, Divinely implanted principle. It connects itself with the second Aorist of peitho (I. 2, above), Gr. epithon , occurs 242 times, and is always translated "faith", except in Act_17:31, "assurance"; Tit_2:10, "fidelity"; and Rom_3:26, and Heb_10:39, where "of faith" is rendered "him which believeth", and "them that believe".
Bullinger.

https://freebiblecommentary.org/special_topics/believe.html#:~:text=FAITH%2C%20BELIEVE%2C%20OR%20TRUST

https://freebiblecommentary.org/special_topics/believe_faith_trust_ot.html#:~:text=Believe%2C%20Trust%2C%20Faith%2C%20and%20Faithfulness%20in%20the%20Old%20Testament

John’s use of the concept
Its NT usage
The term "believed" is from the Greek term pisteuō. which can also be translated "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the NOUN does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the VERB is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd’s commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13,18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-22,31-32).

Its use with PREPOSITIONS
eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus
into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)
into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45 48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)
into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)
into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)
into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)
into Light (John 12:36)
into God (John 14:1)
ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14
epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5, 24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6
the DATIVE CASE with no PREPOSITION as in Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10
hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe
Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)
Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)
Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)
Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)
Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)
Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)
We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)
Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)

Conclusion
Biblical faith is the human response to a divine word/promise. God always initiates (i.e., John 6:44,65), but part of this divine communication is the need for humans to respond (i.e., see SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT).
repentance (see SPECIAL TOPIC: REPENTANCE )
faith/trust (see SPECIAL TOPIC: FAITH, BELIEVE, OR TRUST)
obedience
perseverance (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE)
Biblical faith is
a personal relationship (initial faith)
an affirmation of biblical truth (faith in God’s revelation, i.e., Scripture)
an appropriate obedient response to it (daily faithfulness)

Biblical faith is not a ticket to heaven or an insurance policy. It is a personal relationship. This is the purpose of creation, humans being made in the image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) of God. The issue is "intimacy." God desires fellowship, not a certain theological standing! But fellowship with a holy God demands that the children demonstrate the "family" characteristics (i.e., holiness, cf. Lev. 19:2; Matt. 5:48; 1 Pet. 1:15-16). The Fall (cf. Genesis 3) affected our ability to respond appropriately. Therefore, God acted on our behalf (cf. Ezek. 36:27-38), giving us a "new heart" and a "new spirit," which enables us through faith and repentance to fellowship with Him and obey Him!
 
All three are crucial. All three must be maintained. The goal is to know God (both Hebrew and Greek senses) and to reflect His character in our lives. The goal of faith is not heaven someday, but Christlikeness every day!
Human faithfulness is the result (NT), not the basis (OT) for a relationship with God: human’s faith in His faithfulness; human’s trust in His trustworthiness. The heart of the NT view of salvation is that humans must respond initially and continually to the grace and mercy of God, demonstrated in Christ. He has loved, He has sent, He has provided; we must respond in faith and faithfulness (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10)!
 The faithful God wants a faithful people to reveal Himself to a faithless world and bring them to personal faith in Him.

https://freebiblecommentary.org/special_topics/believe_faith_trust_ot.html#:~:text=John%E2%80%99s%20use%20of,faith%20in%20Him.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie

Nora, where have you been, for the last 15 years or so since you have known me?

Reading studying, listening, learning, and truly hearing. All of which has me closer to the side of @Jim and @synerg and @civic and all those fine folks who know the truth from their own studies and readings.....

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

Now, there is no man that has anything of excellency from himself; therefore the man that believes that he of his own power/free will/the means of his flesh apart from God made the difference in his salvation from sin and condemnation, from him that perishing in his sins, is a man that truly glories in his flesh, and not solely in God's power and grace alone.

The true foundation of Christian modesty is this ~ not to be self-complacent, as knowing that we are empty and void by nature of everything good, that in us, that is, in our flesh there is not good things, no, not one.... that, if God has implanted in us anything that is good through the new birth, we are so much the more debtors to his grace and power; and in truth, we must glory in nothing, because there is nothing that is our own worth gloring in.

Nora, your mistake and others as well on your side of the fence is this:


Salvation from sin and condemnation is not received by faith legally, but our salvation was secured by our surety Jesus Christ, by HIS OBEDIENCE, RIGHTEOUSNESS and FAITH, legally, not our!

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Can you truly not see the error that if God comes before Faith this verse has no meaning. For what guarantee is there that once predestined, and then given faith that the faith wont be just locked in the back of the mind . This is a very active scripture. It tells anyone that they simply cannot be passive.

Nora, much can be added but enough to show you the error of the other side.

That being said, many Calvinist believes that that faith is the means of one being justified, yet say that it happen at the point faith is given to the sinner, which is also an error.

Be that as it may... I do not see where you have answered my question.
of what you mean by " teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven"
In light of the fact that we are told "He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." which I assume you believe is a work by seeking???????????? You saying one should not glory in their seeking and searching and studying and reading and listening in their personal relationship with God....
Sheeesh Red... You kind of are sounding a little bit here like Pope Francis. Eweeeeeee.....................
Does John 17:3 not tell us “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Here Jesus is telling us that our continuing to seek God, desiring to know Him more, is the essence of true life, eternal life. The most important thoughts our minds can entertain are thoughts of God, because they will determine the quality and direction of life. Seeking God, then, is an ongoing responsibility and privilege for all Christians.
And for a Trinitarian such as I that is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
And we do this by growing in our relationship with Him. This starts when we turn to Him for salvation and put our trust in Jesus Christ. When we are saved, we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit who helps us to know God and even transforms our hearts to want to seek Him We learn the truth about God and seek Him through reading His Word (the Bible). We seek God also through prayer and in times of worship.

Our Faith is the evidence of one's free justification, not the means thereof! Even that being sa9id, our faith is so far from being perfect, which should prove to you and others it cannot be a means of justification, since the law requires perfection before it can declare one righteous. The resurrection of Jesus Christ and US IN HIM is that desertion of our free justification!

Romans 4:25​

“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

See also Ephesians 2:6-9!

Of course faith IS A WORK.

Matthew 23:23​

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”

1 John 3:23​

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

It is not a privilege for me, actually,

I am sorry you feel this way. The Heavenly Father could easily block anyone from having the Faith to believe and trust in Jesus and His shed blood. Just as he does blind people to the truth. For Him to allow me to study and get to know Jesus, as well as Himself in a limited way is a privilege beyond any comparison.

1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

May be a commandment, but it IS a privilege

I'm ashamed of my little faith at times, but very thankful that the life which I do live, I do so by the faith of the Son of God who love me and gave himself for me, that I may be able to please God while living in this body of sin and death. I'm much like the father of the child:

Wait a minute. Are you not of the side that touts....Eph 2: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As part of your proof that your new birth is before you receive faith?

Well, if God gave you your faith then it is the amount of faith that He wants you to have . DONT COMPLAIN.

Mark 9:24​

“And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

Selah!

 

[Red Baker]

@MTMattie

Reading studying, listening, learning, and truly hearing. All of which has me closer to the side of @Jim and @synerg and @civic and all those fine folks who know the truth from their own studies and readings.....

I only personally know @Jim by interacting with him since I have with you for the past fifteen years or so, and have great respect for him and his zeal and fear of God. I know little of @synergy, this name said it all for me, and so does his post; @civic seem to love and fear God what I have read from his posts, even though we strongly disagree on doctrine~after all Nora, birds of a feather flock together, so, I would expect you to support them, to a great degree, by so doing, you are supporting your own beliefs, that are dear to you. Never forget: Truth is in the small minority/remnant, always has been so, and always will be so, regardless where you go, even on forums around this world, truth will be with the minority. Popularity with other folks could be a warning sign that truth is not with that person.

Luke 16:15​

“And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.”

We just got through witnessing this with the death of one of the men of sin~Pope Francis.

Nora, I do not seek personal justification/approval from men, never have, never will, and will not start doing so today, etc. One day, it will be just you and myself, each standing before God to give account of our stewardship, I desire to be found unashamed in that day, I will not be able to lean upon any brother or sister to come to my witness of what I have done for the Lord Jesus, for God's records are perfect, each will receive his due rewards, as you well know.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Can you truly not see the error that if God comes before Faith this verse has no meaning. For what guarantee is there that once predestined, and then given faith that the faith wont be just locked in the back of the mind . This is a very active scripture. It tells anyone that they simply cannot be passive.

No error on my part Nora, God is the first cause of any good deed done by us.

1st John 4:19​

“We love him, because he first loved us.”

Our glorious GOD Jehovah is the First Cause of all things, including the chain of love. You and I are nothing, have nothing, and will achieve nothing without His love from eternity for us. God has provided, and freely given to us everything we need to love Him and love others.

I agree, where God has first quicken a sinner to life, that person will display faith and other fruits of the indwelling Spirit of God, but the Spirit must be in that person before they are able to have any fruits coming forth from them, impossible to be otherwise.

Romans 8:8,9​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Be that as it may... I do not see where you have answered my question.
of what you mean by " teaching others to glory in their works as a means of having their sins forgiven"
In light of the fact that we are told "He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." which I assume you believe is a work by seeking???????????? You saying one should not glory in their seeking and searching and studying and reading and listening in their personal relationship with God....
Sheeesh Red... You kind of are sounding a little bit here like Pope Francis. Eweeeeeee.....................

Read my post again~#8740 You said: "You saying one should not glory in their seeking and searching and studying and reading and listening in their personal relationship with God..." We have nothing to glory in, our very best efforts are mixed with sin and does not even deserve any recognition by the God of heaven, and even if he did acknowledged our works, he does so through Christ's perfect work for our eternal salvation and consider our weakness in even considering our works.

Here Jesus is telling us that our continuing to seek God, desiring to know Him more, is the essence of true life, eternal life. The most important thoughts our minds can entertain are thoughts of God, because they will determine the quality and direction of life. Seeking God, then, is an ongoing responsibility and privilege for all Christians.

Nora, yes we should and will do those things mentioned by you, and they are our reasonable service back to our God.

Romans 12:1​

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”

And yes, we must ever be thankful for God's great love that he hath bestowed upon us.

1 John 3:1​

“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.”

Nora, you keep using the word privilege, and I do not oppose you doing so, but do you truly understand the ramification of that word?

Priviledge: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group, and not to all.

1st Peter 2:9​

“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

So, do you accept the meaning of privilege as only referring to God's elect? So do I.

And we do this by growing in our relationship with Him. This starts when we turn to Him for salvation and put our trust in Jesus Christ.

That is a work gospel, pure and simple! The scriptures reject any and all works of the flesh as having any input into one's legal salvation from sin and condemnation! That's another gospel that Paul declares a curse upon in Galatians one~and goes on to define what another gospel is in 2:16-5:4. The more you talk, the more you reveal your gospel that you are trusting in.

Wait a minute. Are you not of the side that touts....Eph 2: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As part of your proof that your new birth is before you receive faith?

Well, if God gave you your faith then it is the amount of faith that He wants you to have . DONT COMPLAIN.

Nora, you lost with these words, not so sure what you are talking about. Nevertheless, I hold to Ephesians 2:8,9 as having to do with Christ's faith as the gift provided for his people, nothing coming from us personally, and my understanding is not the same as other men who are Calvinist in their teachings concerning Eph. 2:8,9. I believe and teach:

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.

Complaining? Have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Red Baker]

@Johann

Not so fast--and let's not cause confusion, there are sincere believers here, asking excellent questions. And I can show you "our, your" faith as it stands written in Scriptures, but this is a rather "lengthy post" for the readers sake.

Johann, I will address this later when I have more time ~ I have read it, but will do so again, and then post.

 

[Kermos]

Brother, even though we may not see eye to eye on every point of theology, I want you to know I respect you and appreciate your heart for the Lord.


Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

COLOSSIANS—NOTE ON 1:10 walk . . . worthy. This is a key NT concept that calls
the believer to live in a way that is consistent with his identification with the
Lord who saved him. See notes on Eph. 4:1 and Phil. 1:27. bearing fruit in
every good work. See notes on Rom. 1:13 and Phil. 4:17. Spiritual fruit is the
by-product of a righteous life. The Bible identifies spiritual fruit as leading
people to Christ (1 Cor. 16:15), praising God (Heb. 13:15), giving money (Rom.
15:26–28), living a godly life (Heb. 12:11), and displaying holy attitudes (Gal.
5:22–23). increasing in the knowledge of God. Spiritual growth cannot occur
apart from this knowledge (1 Pet. 2:2; 2 Pet. 3:18). The evidences of spiritual
growth include a deeper love for God’s word (Ps. 119:97), a more perfect
obedience (1 John 2:3–5), a strong doctrinal foundation (1 John 2:12–14), an
expanding faith (2 Thess. 1:3; cf. 2 Cor. 10:5), and a greater love for others (Phil.
1:9).
Notes from Johnny Mack Study Bible.

J.

Johann, did you notice that your post promotes the sentence "Spiritual fruit is the by-product of a righteous life"?

That ambiguous statement leans toward man-centric particularly when taken in the overall context of your writings; furthermore, that phrase "by-product" carries negative connotation along the lines of toxic industrial by-product or inferiority to the main-line product.

We Christians being in Christ results in the beauty of Christ-like behavior (Romans 8:29), which is truly fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Johann, you have made it abundantly clear that your free-will dictates that you "must still respond to the imperatives placed upon" you according to your own initiative (proof post #8,363); in other words, you must let God do God's work in you because without your permission to let God, then God's work doesn't get done in you; however, the Word of God is “Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?” (Isaiah 43:13).

I believe fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) is evidence of being in Christ (Romans 8:29), who is Life (John 14:6).

 

[synergy]

Johann, did you notice that your post promotes the sentence "Spiritual fruit is the by-product of a righteous life"?

That ambiguous statement leans toward man-centric particularly when taken in the overall context of your writings; furthermore, that phrase "by-product" carries negative connotation along the lines of toxic industrial by-product or inferiority to the main-line product.

We Christians being in Christ results in the beauty of Christ-like behavior (Romans 8:29), which is truly fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Johann, you have made it abundantly clear that your free-will dictates that you "must still respond to the imperatives placed upon" you according to your own initiative (proof post #8,363); in other words, you must let God do God's work in you because without your permission to let God, then God's work doesn't get done in you; however, the Word of God is “Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?” (Isaiah 43:13).

I believe fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) is evidence of being in Christ (Romans 8:29), who is Life (John 14:6).

I'm curious as to how your theology aligns itself with James 2:24?

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Johann]

Johann, you have made it abundantly clear that your free-will dictates that you "must still respond to the imperatives placed upon" you according to your own initiative (proof post #8,363); in other words, you must let God do God's work in you because without your permission to let God, then God's work doesn't get done in you; however, the Word of God is “Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?” (Isaiah 43:13).

@Kermos , I appreciate your attempt to interact with my position, but your statement misunderstands both the theological issue at hand and the actual meaning of Isaiah 43:13, which you have cited.

First, when you quote Isaiah 43:13 ("Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?"), it is important to observe the context carefully. This passage speaks of YHWH's sovereign action in redeeming and protecting Israel from national enemies; it is not addressing the matter of an individual's moral response to God's salvific call. The entire flow of Isaiah 43 is about God's covenant faithfulness to Israel-- about deliverance from Babylonian exile-- not about personal salvation in a New Covenant sense.

Second, the Hebrew verb translated "let" in the KJV is מֵשִׁיב (mēšîḇ), from the root שׁוּב (šûb), meaning "to turn back" or "reverse," not "permit" or "allow." The meaning of Isaiah 43:13 is that no one can undo or reverse God's sovereign work of deliverance. It is not teaching that human beings cannot resist God’s moral commands or refuse His appeals. Even a basic consultation of standard Hebrew lexicons, such as Brown-Driver-Briggs (p. 996), will verify this.

Third, by conflating God's sovereign acts in history with the commands given to individuals regarding salvation, you commit a category error.

You are applying a verse about God's unstoppable historical actions on behalf of Israel to a completely different context -[proof-texting] the human response to God's invitations and imperatives concerning salvation and sanctification.

Scripture everywhere makes clear that human beings are genuinely commanded to respond. For example, Acts 17:30 states, "God now commands all men everywhere to repent," using the Greek present infinitive μετανοεῖν (metanoein), indicating an ongoing necessity for human response.

Fourth, the relationship between God's work and man's response is not a matter of either-or, as you seem to suggest.

Philippians 2:12–13 makes this beautifully clear: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure."

Notice that Paul uses κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe), an imperative commanding the believer’s active participation, even while affirming that it is God (ὁ θεός) who is at work (ἐνεργῶν, energōn) within.

Fifth, when I said that a person must "respond to the imperatives" or "let" God work in them,I is not suggesting that God is somehow weak or dependent.

Rather, I am respecting the Biblical reality that God calls people to willingly cooperate with His grace. Throughout Scripture, God issues real commands — "seek," "repent," "believe," "choose life" — and holds individuals accountable for their response.

If your view were correct, then all such imperatives would be meaningless formalities, which would be both absurd and contrary to the overwhelming testimony of Scripture.

Sixth, the Old Testament itself affirms the necessity of human response to God's initiatives. Isaiah 55:6–7 says, "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near."

The Hebrew verb דִּרְשׁוּ (diršû), translated "seek," is a piel imperative — an emphatic command requiring volitional human action.

Similarly, in Deuteronomy 30:19, God says, "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life." Again, a real choice, a real call for human decision.

Seventh, if we turn to early Christian sources, the same principle holds. Justin Martyr wrote, "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions... and if the human race does not have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, then they are not accountable for their actions" (First Apology 43).

This was the clear understanding of the pre-Augustinian Church: human response is real, not illusory.

Finally, when you assert that God's work does not depend on human response, you seem to collapse into a deterministic view that Scripture simply does not endorse.

From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible preserves a tension: God initiates, God enables, but God also commands, pleads, and invites, expecting a real human response — and holding individuals accountable when they resist (e.g., Ezekiel 18:30–32, where YHWH passionately urges, "Turn and live").

In summary, your appeal to Isaiah 43:13 does not support your point. Instead, it misapplies a passage about historical-national deliverance to a discussion about personal salvific responsibility. The full counsel of Scripture affirms both God's sovereign initiative and man's genuine obligation to respond — without contradiction, without confusion, and without undermining either side.

Brother, do not remain entangled in a narrow company of thought; come out from among them, and let you and I reason together, with open hearts and with the Scriptures as our sure guide.

Johann.

 

[Jim]

I believe fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) is evidence of being in Christ (Romans 8:29), who is Life (John 14:6).

How much fruit of the Spirit does it take to indicate that one is truly in Christ?

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

How much fruit of the Spirit does it take to indicate that one is truly in Christ?

Jim let me answer you with scripture.

Matthew 12:20​

“A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.”

Jim, if you have understanding of this scripture then you would know that where there is seemly life, yet on the brink of not being life, Jesus Christ will not quench that small traces of life, until he sends forth judgement unto VICTORY!

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie



Complaining? Have no clue what you are talking about.

Red, I am not going through your reply sentence by sentence simply because we just see things as differently.
The cause and effect are opposites, in a way.

I will simply say that I know that I have the faith (belief) in Jesus that is required by the heavenly father .

Even John tells us in 6:29 "Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him ( meaning Jesus)whom He has sent.”

Further reported by John
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

No one in this forum should doubt the truth of the following
Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

OR
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

John 20:31 "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Romans 10:10 "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

That is enough for now.

Neither of us should be at odds with these or many others from the four corners of the Holy Scripture.

No one here should be for the simplicity of the statements are such that even the less learned of such matters can understand.
That is as it should be.

Our differences lie with what we believe the four corners of the Holy Scriptures tells us as to how and when we arrive at such
that we can testify Faith comes by hearing and hearing is by the word of God.

You believe that man, left on his own, without the encouragement of the Holy Father will never have the capacity to understand any of this. Therefore you believe that those who do have had that encouragement from the Holy Father.

Where am I wrong in this... because for 15 years You write, we read, and this is what I hear you saying.

And you are not alone on here.

I disagree with you on your belief that it was God first who set you on your way to the believing faith He requires.

NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THAT GOD, HIMSELF, DOES NOT CHOSE PEOPLE FOR HIS PLANS. HE DOES.
BUT NOT EVERYONE.

If that were the case then Jesus never would have needed to come first for His lost sheep.... They should have had the faith
from God choosing them in the first place... but not all did.

And Jesus would not have needed to .... how can I simply say this????? .... Well, if those who were chosen by God and then given the faith to believe.... it is to all of our shames that Jesus had to shed His blood for us in the horribly torturous way that He did.

That aside.

Let me ask you this..... Do you thing that the Heavenly Father would have and does use a mother (possibly dad) as a tool to start a child on their journey to salvation? You know... The raise up a child thing?

I am remembering a long time ago. Nearly 7 decades when I was told the truth about Santa Claus and from there and through confirmation classes a few years later I knew and I believed.... and a few years after that (about 8) came my personal seeking and searching that has gotten me here today.

I will stop now by asking one last question.

If we believe what we are supposed to believe... does it matter how we came to believe?

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Jim let me answer you with scripture.

Matthew 12:20​

“A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.”

Jim, if you have understanding of this scripture then you would know that where there is seemly life, yet on the brink of not being life, Jesus Christ will not quench that small traces of life, until he sends forth judgement unto VICTORY!

That does not answer the question that I asked.

To get to the question that I asked, I had a very good friend who, I think, exhibited more real fruit than most believers that I know but who was, at best, a deist, i.e., he believed that God exists and believed that God created all of this, but apart from that pretty much left the world to function without His involvement.

So if you think that fruit of the Spirit signifies a born-again believer, then how much fruit does it take for that signifying to be valid?

 

[Johann]

That does not answer the question that I asked.

To get to the question that I asked, I had a very good friend who, I think, exhibited more real fruit than most believers that I know but who was, at best, a deist, i.e., he believed that God exists and believed that God created all of this, but apart from that pretty much left the world to function without His involvement.

So if you think that fruit of the Spirit signifies a born-again believer, then how much fruit does it take for that signifying to be valid?

Parable of the ten virgins comes to mind-


. The Pharisees and Scribes (e.g., Matthew 23:27–28)
Jesus directly addresses the Pharisees, calling them "whitewashed tombs," who outwardly appear righteous to men but inwardly are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness; they were experts in the Law and highly esteemed religiously, yet utterly rejected the Messiah when He stood before them.

2. The Rich Young Ruler (Matthew 19:16–22; Mark 10:17–22; Luke 18:18–23)
This man claimed to have kept the commandments from his youth, displaying an external moral righteousness, but when Jesus challenged him to forsake his wealth and follow Him, he went away sorrowful, exposing that his heart was not truly submitted to God.

3. Saul before his conversion (Philippians 3:4–6; Acts 8:1–3)
Paul (then Saul) described himself as "blameless" regarding the righteousness in the Law, yet he persecuted the church of God violently, showing that external adherence to the Law did not mean closeness to Christ — indeed, he was fighting against Christ Himself.

4. Israel as a nation (Romans 10:2–3)
Paul writes that they had a zeal for God but not according to knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis); seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to the righteousness of God manifested in Christ.

5. King Saul (1 Samuel 13–15)
Although anointed by God and initially appearing humble, Saul consistently placed his own judgment and appearances before obedience to God's commands, ultimately leading to his rejection by God (1 Samuel 15:22–23).

6. Eli’s sons, Hophni and Phinehas (1 Samuel 2:12–17)
As priests, they held the outward position of religious authority, yet they were called "sons of Belial" because they did not know the Lord and committed grievous sins against the worship system of Israel.

7. Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8:9–24)
After being baptized and following Philip, Simon appeared to be a believer, but Peter rebuked him sharply, declaring his heart was not right before God and that he was poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

nevertheless--


2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

J.

 

[ProDeo]

I've noticed your concern, brother, and I want to say this clearly one more time-- I firmly believe that our initial salvation is entirely the work of monergism--God alone brings it about.

Agree, God draws and then you have to make a choice.

Moses could have run from the burning bush.

Many Israelite's did several times despite the daily manna, the walk through the Red Sea, etc.

BTW, haven't read this thread for 5 days, guess what, 16 new pages to read, amazing.

 

[ProDeo]

Yes

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

I am afraid that for some of us (myself included) both faith and salvation are a gift. In my case :

Grace from God came first.
Faith was born.
I believed.

 

[civic]

I am afraid that for some of us (myself included) both faith and salvation are a gift. In my case :

Grace from God came first.
Faith was born.
I believed.

I’m ok with us disagreeing

 

[ProDeo]

@ GodsGrace

Well silly goose, it comes from your free will, are you not listening to your own teachings?

GG is many things but not silly and not a goose and she said freewill predates grace and faith, both gifts. So who is silly?

 

[ProDeo]

@Johann, you are seriously telling me to prove Scriptures wrong? You know better than that. All any of us can ever do is convince others that their interpretations of this or that Scripture is wrong. And as you well know, that almost never happens.

Be real here. In all of your postings here, you have never actually proved anything. You have only presented your arguments. Some are quite convincing, some are not.

My personal experience that supports my understanding of -

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I was raised as a Christian, I sometimes prayed, when I sinned I did not felt guilt, faith was at minimum, why would God care about my life and I was on my way to become an agnostic as best.

Then God's draw and grace came, in my case by a hard to deny experience and I started to believe, faith as a gift, with as end result salvation. The same draw and grace may come from hearing the word, examples, 1) 3000 repented after Peter's sermon on Pentecost, 2) hundreds came forward and repented after Billy Graham spoke. True faith is born after being touched by the Lord. Both salvation and faith are gifts.

YMMV.

 

[ProDeo]

Whoops, you lied with "offensive to any believer" because God granted me agreement from others in this very thread.

Now, to you and @Eternally-Grateful (your "Like" of Jim's aspersion against Almighty God), you who convey God is evil to save even one person:

​

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.​

​

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory​

(Romans 9:18-23)​

​

So, faithful, glorious, and graceful Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessels of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides your wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into Romans 9:19-23.

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault since your soteriology assigns to God such strikingly absurd character traits as to be offensive to any believer? For who resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

​

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)​

​

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in Romans 9:20 showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings - look at your post, Jim.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

@Kermos

Romans 9 has to be in sync what Paul said in Romans 1:28-32, key verse 24, the reprobate God uses for His own purpose, glory.

Rom 9:22 - What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

A person (pharaoh included) does not become a reprobate or vessel of wrath easily, only after God's enduring patience after having zillion of chances to repent.

And pharaoh had many chances, he saw (experienced) God's miracles but hardened his heart every time.

 

[Red Baker]

@ProDeo

GG is many things but not silly and not a goose and she said freewill predates grace and faith, both gifts. So who is silly?

Forget about being a silly goose which was said purposely using a little humor with no pun intended ~ But I will say anyone believing a sinner who has only flesh, not yet being born of God, has no free will "to do spiritual acts" pleasing to God according to the teachings of the God of heaven, believes in a false doctrine.

Romans 9:16​

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Romans 8:8​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Jeremiah 13:23​

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.”

An Ethiopian could sooner change his skin before a man in the flesh can please God by doing spiritual acts of the Spirit, neither of which can happen.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

That does not answer the question that I asked.

Maybe @Jim it does not for you, but it certainly does for me. My father-in-law, which is actually Sherry's step father is still living in his nineties, he was younger than Sherry's mother. He is an profess atheist, yet his outward life is very clean and seemly upright, yet has no true fruits of the Spirit of God, especially so the gift of faith, without which there is no salvation evidence.

Galatians 5:22​

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

Jim, I know very well, that professing faith alone proves nothing, unless it is has godly works such as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, Meekness, temperance, etc. along with professing faith in God.

The bottom line is this~to what degree, or what measuring rule should we use to determine who are God's children and who are not? We do not ahve a black and white rule, for God does not want us judging professors. But, that being said, he has given to us certain marks which we should withdraw ourselves from those who profess yet who do not measure up to certain scripture qualifications. Examples would be helpful:

1) Those who profess yet live not according to the scriptures...they live serving the flesh, not God.

1st John 3:6,7​

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

Jim, a man or woman that professes Jesus Christ, yet lives under the power of sin (committeth sin) is not of God, regardless what he or she may say otherwise. Sin is define not by them but by the word of God.

Example: folks living together and not married is sin, yet so many are doing this, yet profess to be Christians! Sodomy, folks lusteth after the same sex, yet professing to be Christian is a powerful delusion, yet I see it everyday. But, let us get closer to home: Women in the pulpit is against the word of God, yet many seem to accept this false teaching. Divorce and remarriage is sinful and against the scriptures, yet churches are full of such folks. There are some exceptions, but they are so limited that they very seldom apply in most cases.

2) Those men and women who purposely go against scriptures in order to be accepted and to draw NUMBERS are not of God.

2nd Timothy 3:1-5~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Thessalonians-2-3/

2nd Thessalonica 2:1-12~" Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Without spending much time here, I will only say a couple of things before I leave to go out of town for a short time.

Here we have a picture of what the last days will be like in the churches of God throughout this world. The man of sin~A man of sin, like a man of war, is one proficient and forward in sin and sinning. Collective nouns are single in number, but include all of their species (Ist Tim 2:11; 2nd Tim 3:17; Ps 10:18; 37:7; Hebrews 9:7). The man of sin is a simple as he said: MAN of sin...man OF SIN, all men that stands in God's temple (churches, places of worship) proclaiming to speak on God's behalf yet truly speak according to their own fleshly wicked hearts! These men stand and change the word of God to accommodate their followers~the true children of God are not wanted, they despise them for they reject their corruption of God's word, etc.

So to make this short, any person who goes against plain scriptures for whatever reason are not of God~ some of these we recognize, others we give hem the benefit of doubts, yet God knows all hearts and will not be deceived.

So Jim, we still stand on: Matthew 12:20 and leave the judgement to God, and what we see clearly we avoid, and withdraw ourselves from.