Yes. Nearly every instance of the Holy Spirit "coming upon" or "falling on" is an instance where the Holy Spirit moved upon individuals in a non-regenerative/regenerative manner. That is absolutely true throughout the OT where regeneration had not yet been initiated for the believer.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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Johann
Well-known member
I can't be online 24/7 like I used to be, but are you referring to intellectual assent to the Scriptures in relation to soteriology?
J.
civic
Well-known member
no their theology.
Johann
Well-known member
GodsGrace
Well-known member
So you speak Koine Greek fluently?
That's nice to know.
So if I BELIEVE IN JESUS....
I'm not required to take any action?
Looks like John 11:25 is saying BELIEVE IN
John 11:26 is a mental assent.
(which you've stated).
Both use Strong's 4100,,,,pistis.
Strong's just doesn't work well, it seems to me.
I think it's well to use theology when exegeting the bible
UNLESS one speaks Koine Greek and really knows it.
Which you might...don't know.
civic
Well-known member
neither side is 100% correct on soteriology and there are other valid views including provisionism.
civic
Well-known member
If a person claims to be a trinitarian yet misunderstands the Trinity- Tri-Unity of God this trickles downwards into their doctrines, theology, soteriology etc........ This is where the reformation was way off base and specifically calvinism with tulip, PSA, Sovereignty etc..... Its a faulty view of God which has a direct effect on their beliefs/doctrines.
And I'm very familiar with with all types of questions and their purpose. But thanks for the tip, suggestion.
I revere God's salvation. You "laugh out loud" at God's salvation.
I believe the Holy Spirit causes we Christians to be born of God (John 3:3), and during this birthing process we are given belief in the Son whom the Father had sent (John 6:29) along with us being cleansed of sin (John 8:36) along with us being imparted Life in Christ (John 14:6).
You maligned the Holy Spirit imparted faith/belief deposited into my heart by God.
To be specific, @Eternally-Grateful, you believe that "belief is how we are saved and born again" (proof post #8,378) which is the exact opposite of Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John's saying "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1).
You believe that your belief/faith is the work of your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) in direct opposition to the Word of God's declaration “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
The believe that you see in John 20:31 is entirely the work of God” (John 6:29)!
Since you wrote "Life is through faith. by Grace", then you believe that your dead flesh chooses rightly to enter the Living Lord Jesus Christ, but your belief system is not found in the Holy Scripture! God has me proclaiming that the dead do not choose Life (Luke 12:57).
Christ is Life in us Christians (John 14:6), and by God's Grace, God gives us salvation through belief/faith given by God and not of us, for God's glory, for we are God’s work (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
Johann
Well-known member
I believe you are wrong here--
John 3:12 – Questioning Intellectual Acknowledgment
In John 3:12, Jesus says:
"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"
The verb "believe" (πιστεύετε, present active indicative, 2nd person plural) here refers to the present state of unbelief.
It’s true that Jesus is questioning their acknowledgment of the truth, but we must note that belief (pisteuō) here is not just a passive mental acknowledgment--it is a living response to the revealed truth.
The present tense indicates an ongoing state, implying that their intellectual assent is inadequate without a response of faith that leads to deeper trust.
This present tense form in the indicative mood means that the individuals are not simply acknowledging facts, but are in a state of disbelief that actively blocks their understanding of deeper spiritual truths. This emphasizes that faith involves more than passive acceptance; it involves an active response to the truth presented by Christ.
2. John 9:35-36 – Believing in the Son of Man
In John 9:35-36, Jesus asks the healed man:
"Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
The phrase "believe in" (πιστεύεις εἰς, present active indicative, 2nd person singular) here implies more than intellectual assent.
The preposition εἰς indicates a trusting belief or commitment to the Son of Man. The present tense is not just passive acknowledgment but an ongoing act of faith, which goes beyond merely acknowledging the truth about the Son of Man to actively placing trust in Him.
The fact that the healed man answers (πιστεύσω, future active indicative, 1st person singular) indicates a future commitment to faith.
The healed man is actively responding to Christ's question about belief and is moving towards personal trust in Jesus.
Thus, the Greek verb πιστεύω εἰς (believe in) is far from implying mere acknowledgment; it signifies a trust-based, relational commitment, and in this passage, it serves as an imperative for the man to place his trust in Jesus as the Son of Man.
3. John 11:25-26 – Life in Belief
In John 11:25-26, Jesus declares--
"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
The phrase "believes in me" (πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ, present active participle, nominative singular) is significant.
The participle form in the present tense conveys not just intellectual assent but continuous action--this belief is living faith that is alive and enduring, not just a momentary acknowledgment of truth.
The verb "believes" (πιστεύειν) here clearly involves active trust in Christ, not just a mental acknowledgment of the truth.
The participial construction indicates that this belief is something that involves ongoing action, as those who believe in Jesus’ resurrection power are called to live out their faith continually.
Moreover, the imperative implied in "Do you believe this?" is a command to act on the truth, to trust in Christ’s claim as the Resurrection and the Life. Faith, in this case, is not just acknowledging a truth, but is an imperative call to respond to Christ’s power over life and death.
4. Overall Greek Context of πιστεύω
While it is true that πιστεύω can have a cognitive element of acknowledging truth, its primary usage in the New Testament, especially in salvation contexts, is to imply active trust, faith, and commitment.
The verb is not simply a mental act but involves a relational act of trust--the kind that leads to life transformation.
In Romans 10:9, for example, Paul writes, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Here, belief goes far beyond intellectual assent.
The believing in the heart signifies a deep, transformative trust in the person of Christ and the work of the resurrection, something that directly leads to salvation.
Similarly, in Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith," the verb "saved" (ἐσώθητε, aorist passive indicative, 2nd person plural) and "faith" (πίστις) emphasize salvific trust and commitment as the means by which salvation is appropriated.
While there are instances in Scripture where πιστεύω can reflect mere intellectual assent, the verb is predominantly used in the context of active trust and relational commitment, especially in soteriological contexts.
The use of present active tense and prepositional phrases like πιστεύειν εἰς (believing in) denotes more than a cognitive acknowledgment; it signifies ongoing trust, commitment, and a transformational relationship with Christ.
In the passages of John 3:12, John 9:35-36, and John 11:25-26, Jesus calls not just for acknowledgment but for action rooted in faith and trust. Thus, it is not merely about acknowledging a fact, but about actively trusting and responding to the truth of who Christ is.
Right @Jim?
J.
No, I do not speak Koine Greek, fluently or otherwise. I did take a couple of courses in Greek many years ago. But more importantly, I rely on one, now deceased, that I consider very, very knowledgeable in Koine Greek.
Did you not understand what I wrote concerning the difference between believe and believe in?
John 11:26 contains both uses.
Joh 11:26 καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. πιστεύεις τοῦτο;
To ignore the helps available relative to the original languages of the Bible is unwise when they are so readily available today.
Johann
Well-known member
Glad you are man enough to admit this and I confess my theology is not always correct-so we need each other-right?
J.
civic
Well-known member
Absolutely
I would ask you to go back and read again what I wrote. I pointed out the differences in usage of believe and believe in.
And no, I do not think that John 3:12 is speaking about more than mental assent. It is a simple question of what they mentally, intellectually, acknowledge or not concerning what Jesus is telling them. It makes use of only πιστεύω, not πιστεύω εἰς. On the other hand, John 9:35-36 and John 11:25-26 both make use of the phrase πιστεύω εἰς, i.e., believe in.
Johann
Well-known member
I did Jim.
John 3:12 - Intellectual Acknowledgment (Simple Question of Mental Assent)
While it is true that in John 3:12, the use of πιστεύω (present active indicative, 2nd person plural) seems to be about mental assent or acknowledging the truth that Jesus is revealing, we should note that even intellectual assent in the context of the Gospel is a precursor to a deeper, transformative faith.
In this passage, Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus and the other Jews about earthly things (which they are not accepting or believing) and then contrasts that with the heavenly things He will reveal.
The question posed is more about their unbelief, and it implies that mental assent alone is insufficient to understand the deeper truths Jesus is teaching. The present tense of πιστεύετε indicates that their unbelief is a continuous state.
However, πιστεύω in this context does not fully imply action or trust in the same way it does in other passages. It could indeed be seen as a mental acknowledgment of the facts, but even in that acknowledgment, there is an implicit challenge to move beyond just intellectual assent to a more active trust in the truth.
2. John 9:35-36 and John 11:25-26 - πιστεύω εἰς (Believe in)
It is accurate that John 9:35-36 and John 11:25-26 use the construction πιστεύω εἰς (believe in), which carries a deeper, relational sense of trust or commitment, not merely intellectual assent.
John 9:35-36: Jesus asks the healed man if he believes in the Son of Man. The phrase πιστεύεις εἰς (you believe in) carries the implication of placing trust or relying on Jesus, which is more than just acknowledging a fact. The use of εἰς signifies a commitment to the person of Jesus, not just a mental agreement with His identity.
John 11:25-26: Similarly, in Jesus' statement, "Whoever believes in me" (πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ), πιστεύειν εἰς implies ongoing, living trust in Jesus as the Resurrection and the Life. This is not just about mental acknowledgment but about an active faith that involves both assent and trust in Jesus' person and work.
Your assertion that John 3:12 speaks only to intellectual acknowledgment (mental assent) is not entirely wrong, but it should be understood within the larger context of how belief is framed in the New Testament.
Even though John 3:12 does not use πιστεύω εἰς, it still challenges the listeners to move beyond a surface-level intellectual assent to a deeper belief and trust in Jesus and His message.
John 9:35-36 and John 11:25-26 are indeed clearer in their emphasis on trusting in Jesus, as evidenced by the use of πιστεύω εἰς. So, it’s correct to say that these passages involve more than intellectual acknowledgment; they involve trusting faith.
While John 3:12 may primarily deal with intellectual acknowledgment (with a challenge to move beyond it), it is part of the broader New Testament understanding of faith that also includes trust and commitment—elements that are more fully developed in passages like John 9:35-36 and John 11:25-26, which employ πιστεύω εἰς to express that deeper relationship of faith in Christ.
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE FAITH
THE FAITH -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
Believe, Trust, Faith, and Faithfulness in the Old Testament
Believe, Trust, Faith and Faithfulness -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
Special Topic: Faith, Believe, or Trust
Believe -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
JOHN'S USE OF THE VERB "BELIEVE"
John primarily combines "believe" with PREPOSITIONS
eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus.
into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)
into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:37,42)
into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)
into the One He has sent (John 6:28-29)
into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)
into Jesus (John 12:11)
into Light (John 12:36)
into God (John 12:44; 14:1)
ev means "in" as in Mark 1:15; John 3:15
the DATIVE CASE with no PREPOSITION (John 4:50; 1 John 3:23; 5:10)
hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe. Some examples are
Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)
Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24,28; 13:19; 18:8)
Jesus in the Father and the Father in Him (John 10:38)
Jesus is the Christ (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)
Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)
Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)
Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)
Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)
Biblical faith is in both a person and a message! It is evidenced by obedience (see SPECIAL TOPIC: KEEP), love (see SPECIAL TOPIC: LOVE), and perseverance (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE.
SPECIAL TOPIC: BELIEVE, TRUST, FAITH AND FAITHFULNESS
SPECIAL TOPIC: THE GOSPEL
SPECIAL TOPIC: JOHN'S USE OF THE VERB "BELIEVE" (the noun is rare)
Believe (John's Use) -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
Greek Word Form Translation Case/Usage Example(s)
πίστις (pistis) Noun (fem.) Faith Nominative (subject), Accusative (object) Ephesians 2:8 ("For by grace you have been saved through faith")
πίστιν (pistin) Noun (fem.) Faith (accusative) Accusative (direct object) Galatians 3:22 ("But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.")
πίστεως (pisteōs) Noun (fem.) Faith (genitive) Genitive (of origin/possession) Romans 3:22 ("This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.")
πίστει (pistei) Noun (fem.) Faith (dative) Dative (indirect object) Romans 1:17 ("For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last.")
πιστεύω (pisteuō) Verb (to believe) To believe, have faith Present active indicative, 1st or 2nd person John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.")
πιστεύσῃς (pisteusēs) Verb (to believe) To believe, have faith Aorist subjunctive, 2nd person singular Acts 16:31 ("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.")
πιστεύοντας (pisteuontas) Verb (to believe) Believing Present participle, accusative plural Galatians 3:22 ("But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.")
πιστεύειν (pisteuein) Verb (to believe) To believe (infinitive) Infinitive verb form John 6:29 ("Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'")
Key Notes--
πίστις is the most common noun form for "faith" and can appear in various cases (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative) depending on its role in the sentence.
πιστεύω is the verb form, meaning "to believe" or "to have faith." It can be used in the present or aorist tense, and often with prepositions like εἰς (into) or ἐν (in), as seen in expressions like πιστεύειν εἰς (believing in).
πίστει (dative) often indicates the means or instrument by which faith is exercised, as in Romans 1:17, where faith is the means of receiving righteousness from God.
This is a very interesting topic, and it immediately brings to mind the parable of the four soils.
J.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
No. I LOL ar you,
So you believe we are made alive in sin. noted
No. I believe we are born again by grace, through faith
No. I am saved by Grace
Yep. Never said otherwise.
Good God man, get over yourself.
You silly false accusations are meaningless.
You have people made alive in sin. You have a God that can not keep his own perfect justice but overrules it. making him an imperfect judge.
before you judge others. Judge yourself
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Johann
Well-known member
I believe you complicate things @Kermos
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO "RECEIVE," "BELIEVE," "CONFESS/PROFESS," and "CALL UPON"?
As an evangelical the Great Commission of the risen Lord, Matthew 28:18-20 has priority importance to me. My evangelicalism mandates a personal encounter with God through Christ. I have always pondered what "make disciples" means. Usually those Christian groups who emphasize an initial personal encounter model speak of
"receiving" – John 1:12
"believing" – Mark 1:15; John 3:16,18,36; 6:40; 11:25-26; Acts 10:43
"confessing"/"professing" – Matt. 10:32; Luke 12:8; John 9:22; 12:42; 1 Tim. 6:12; 1 John 2:23; 4:15
"calling on" – Rom. 10:9-13
but the Great Commission uses "making disciples" and "teaching them to observe all that I have taught you." Jesus' discussion of a gate (initial personal encounter) and a narrow road (daily godly living) in Matt. 7:13-14; Luke 13:24 has given me a key theological concept—salvation is a process (see SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK VERB TENSES USED TO DESCRIBE SALVATION). It starts with "an encounter" mechanism but is unclear exactly how that is done! Surely it is the initial wooing of the Spirit (John 6:44,65; 16:13-15) and a sense of personal sin and spiritual need, combined with a willingness to repent and believe (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 2:38; 3:16,19; 20:21; 26:20). This initial encounter (aha moment) must then issue in a Christlike life (cf. Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15) Justification and sanctification cannot, must not, be separated! I have come to believe that a mature salvation must involve
repentance, initial and continuing (see SPECIAL TOPIC: REPENTANCE)
faith/trust/belief, initial and continuing (see SPECIAL TOPIC: FAITH, BELIEVE, OR TRUST)
perseverance throughout life (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE)
As I see it, there are two dangers.
an over-emphasis on initial salvation that sees salvation as a ticket to heaven at the end of life or an insurance policy unrelated to daily lifestyle choices
an over-emphasis on the path as a process where the issue becomes "do my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds?" ( a form of works righteousness)
Salvation is
a person to welcome (Jesus)
truths about that person to believe (the Bible)
a life like that person to live (Christlikeness)
Salvation is a free gift (Rom. 3:24; 6:23) of God's grace, Christ's finished work, and the leadership of the Spirit. The Christian life is also a grace gift that must be received daily. Here is the theological issue, "How does one receive/believe/call on/confess or profess?" Please look at the following notes and Special Topics:
receive – see SPECIAL TOPIC: RECEIVE, and the note at John 1:12
believe – see SPECIAL TOPIC: BELIEVE, TRUST, FAITH AND FAITHFULNESS IN THE OTand SPECIAL TOPIC: FAITH, BELIEVE, OR TRUST
confess/profess – see SPECIAL TOPIC: CONFESSION/PROFESSION
call on – see SPECIAL TOPIC: CALL ON HIS NAME and notes at Rom. 10:9-13
Salvation is a "gate" (initial personal encounter) and a way (daily godly living). These cannot be separated or reversed in time! The normal result of salvation is
Christlikeness (cf. Rom. 7:1; 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Pet. 1:15)
service (cf. Matt. 25:31-46)
"Only believe, only believe" or "do better" are both inappropriate statements.
I guess the reason for this Special Topic is my conflict in doing evangelism among Orthodox or Catholic populations. I meet so many people who obviously know and love Jesus but do not answer "my questions" in a way that I feel comfortable. But I think the problem is with my traditions.
To assert that one must pray a "sinner's prayer," when this is not an emphasis in the NT, shows a theological bias.
I do believe in the necessity of an encounter mechanism, but I must widen my own understanding of what this involves. A person's statement of faith and lifestyle fruit takes precedence over a certain methodology or theological construct.
Just a theological aside about "fruit." My understanding of this comes from two passages by Jesus.
the Sermon on the Mount – Matt. 7:13-23
the Parable of the Soils – Matt. 13:1-24; Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:4-15
The "fruit" is not the way to be saved but the evidence of a true conversion (cf. James 2:14-26). No fruit, no root! Eternal life has observable characteristics!
Another theological aside about some of the inappropriate proof-text methods used by evangelicals:
using Rev. 3:20 as an initial salvation invitation when it is part of the letters to the seven churches (Revelation 2-3)
using the "Roman Road" as "the" way to be saved. The first three verses,
Rom. 3:23
Rom. 6:23
Rom. 5:8
summarize the gospel message, but there is no "encounter" verse in the literary unit of Romans, chapters 1-8, so we jump to the next literary unit on "why has Israel not believed the gospel?" (Romans 9-11) and quote Rom. 10:9-13 as the concluding act in "the" plan of salvation.
Some even assert that because of Rom. 10:9-13, it must be a spoken prayer (i.e., Rom. 10:9).
or as I mentioned before in this Special Topic, we make "the sinner's prayer" (which probably comes from the parable of the Pharisee and the sinner, cf. Luke 18:9-14) "the" model for all salvation
Again, I want to affirm the necessity of "an encounter" mechanism but I think there are many ways.
a special moment of revelation (i.e., quoting a creed)
a special moment of worship (i.e., hearing a testimony or singing a hymn)
a life crisis
a dream encounter
surely prayer is a valid way
and many others
God is looking for the smallest response to flood us with His grace and salvation!
Salvation is the will of God for all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14) made in His image for fellowship (see SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN). Jesus' life, teachings, and death paid the penalty of human sin and rebellion (cf. Romans 1-3).
Now "whosoever will," "anyone who," "all," "as many as" become the open invitation! The drawing of the Spirit allows fallen humans to recognize their need, recognize God's provision in Jesus, and it also demands (1) a personal, decisive decision (i.e., a volitional choice) and (2) a lifestyle change.
The gospel is not difficult, tricky, or confusing but available, understandable, and open to all! Disciples are those who
hear
understand
respond
obey
continue (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE)
May God forgive denominational arrogance and manmade barriers, but also may the "exclusivistic scandal" of John 10:1-8; 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Tim. 2:5 be proclaimed to all!
All may come and they may come in many ways, but they must all come through Jesus and live for Him (i.e., be changed, cf. Matt. 28:20)! There is only one door but it is wide open (cf. Acts 14:27; Col. 4:3; Rev. 3:7-8)—"as many as," "whosoever will," "all who" may enter!
SPECIAL TOPIC: CONFESS-PROFESS
CONFESS-PROFESS -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org
May God deliver us from pride and refusal to accept correction!
Everyone wants to be right, but is our "rightness" aligned with God's? And the Scriptures?
J.
