Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Sad but true
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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civic
Well-known member
MTMattie
Well-known member
Yep, but at least those Calvin followers had the sense enough to only use 5 points on either salvation or TULIP.
If one has only one hand, they can still use their fingers to count... and if they have both then both areas can be counted at the same time.
How smart is that???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
That which you attribute to simply as a man's typographical work, I find your declaration reminiscent of the account of Caiaphas prophesying without his human will and mind having understanding of the deep meaning of his own words (John 11:51).
You wrote the Truth (John 14:6) when you prophesied "I have the free will to except God's free gift of salvation or reject it" (proof post #8,337) except it's your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) because there's no such thing as free-will. Interestingly, your pseudonym matches the old testament Prophet Nathan's name at the time of King David.
Where you see fallible man's hand alone, I see God's hand and God's purpose.
No one ever comes to Christ in their own initiative because Christ the Word of God declares “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).
To God alone be the glory!
Johann
Well-known member
Except-you have to admit human volition @Kermos--
Romans 6:16 – Presentation of members to sin or obedience
Text:
“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?” (ESV)
Greek:
οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ᾧ παριστάνετε ἑαυτοὺς δούλους εἰς ὑπακοήν, δοῦλοί ἐστε ᾧ ὑπακούετε
The verb παριστάνετε (present active indicative, 2nd person plural) is used here in an active form implying agency and deliberation. The audience is being addressed as morally responsible agents who choose whom to serve. This reflects a dichotomous moral decision—obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.
2. Galatians 5:16–25 – Walk by the Spirit vs. Gratify the Flesh
“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” (v.16) Clear as a bell @Kermos
Greek:
λέγω δέ, Πνεύματι περιπατεῖτε καὶ ἐπιθυμίαν σαρκὸς οὐ μὴ τελέσητε.
Περιπατεῖτε is a present active imperative (2nd person plural), explicitly issuing a command. This assumes the addressees have the moral ability and obligation to respond. The whole passage (vv. 16–25) contrasts “works of the flesh” with “fruit of the Spirit,” and concludes with “If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit” (v.25, στοιχῶμεν = present active subjunctive), reinforcing the notion of volitional alignment.
3. 1 Corinthians 10:13 – The Way of Escape and Choosing It
Text:
“God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”
Greek:
ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν
While the escape (ἔκβασις) is divinely provided, the implication is that believers must take it. The verb ὑπενεγκεῖν (to endure) is an aorist active infinitive, denoting the purpose of the escape—so that they might be able to bear it. The availability of escape assumes an act of the will to choose the godly path.
4. Philippians 2:12–13 – Work Out Your Salvation
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
God is not working out your salvation brother
Greek:
μετὰ φόβου καὶ τρόμου τὴν ἑαυτῶν σωτηρίαν κατεργάζεσθε
θεὸς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ ἐνεργῶν ἐν ὑμῖν καὶ τὸ θέλειν καὶ τὸ ἐνεργεῖν
Κατεργάζεσθε is a present middle imperative (2nd person plural), calling for deliberate effort and participation in God’s saving work. While v.13 emphasizes divine enablement (ἐνεργῶν, present active participle), v.12 assumes human response. The balance assumes synergy, not coercion.
5. Romans 12:1–2 – Presenting Bodies as Living Sacrifice
“Present your bodies as a living sacrifice…” Who is doing the presenting brother?
Greek:
παραστῆσαι τὰ σώματα ὑμῶν θυσίαν ζῶσαν
Παραστῆσαι is the aorist active infinitive used after παρακαλῶ (I urge), indicating an intentional, once-for-all act. This is a moral and volitional appeal grounded in “the mercies of God,” appealing to the will of believers to choose consecration over conformity to the world.
6. 2 Corinthians 6:17 – Come Out from Among Them
“Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord…” Human volition.
Greek:
ἐξέλθετε ἐκ μέσου αὐτῶν καὶ ἀφορίσθητε
Both ἐξέλθετε and ἀφορίσθητε are aorist imperatives, issuing divine commands through Paul to separate from idolatrous or immoral company. This presumes the will is engaged and responsible for obedience or defiance.
7. Colossians 3:1–2 – Seek the Things Above
“If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above…” Who are those seeking?
Greek:
εἰ οὖν συνηγέρθητε τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἄνω ζητεῖτε
Ζητεῖτε is a present active imperative. The word ζητέω denotes earnest seeking and is used frequently to denote volitional and purposeful pursuit (cf. Matthew 6:33). The imperative assumes moral responsibility and the capacity to act accordingly.
8. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 – Test Everything; Hold Fast What is Good
“Test everything; hold fast what is good.” Who is doing the testing brother?
Greek:
πάντα δὲ δοκιμάζετε, τὸ καλὸν κατέχετε
Both verbs are present active imperatives (δοκιμάζετε, κατέχετε), addressed to the whole congregation. These exhortations rest on the assumption that believers can, and must, make discerning judgments and retain what is good, rejecting what is evil.
9. Ephesians 4:22–24 – Put Off the Old Man; Put On the New
“Put off your old self… be renewed… put on the new self…” Is God doing this for you brother?
Greek:
ἀποθέσθαι ὑμᾶς… ἀνανεοῦσθαι… ἐνδύσασθαι τὸν καινὸν ἄνθρωπον
These are infinitives used after the verb ἐδιδάχθητε (you were taught), implying moral instruction with volitional response. The middle voice (ἀποθέσθαι, ἐνδύσασθαι) emphasizes the subject’s involvement in the action—casting off and clothing oneself is a deliberate act.
10. 2 Corinthians 8:3 – They Gave of Their Own Accord
Text:
“They gave voluntarily of their own accord.”
Greek:
κατὰ δύναμιν καὶ παρὰ δύναμιν ἔδωκαν αὐθαίρετοι
Αὐθαίρετοι is an adjective meaning “of their own free will,” used to describe the Macedonian churches’ generosity. It confirms volitional agency in giving and contradicts deterministic views of human action. Their generosity is neither coerced nor externally imposed but proceeds from personal choice.
How much clearer could the Scripture possibly be? And correct you are--to Christ Jesus be all the glory, honor and praise!
Shalom.
J.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
You said:
HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT.
And right you are!
He COMES to the light.
He is NOT dragged there by God.
Persons are able to seek God and to find Him:
This is how one COMES to God.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
The Israelites were told to pray and seek the face of God.
They were told to turn from their wicked ways.
Then God would hear them and forgive them.
It is by BELIEVING that we obtain life:
John 20:31
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
The gospel was written so that we could have the possibility to believe....
so that you may believe.....
Belief comes by hearing the word of God...
Romans 10:17
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
To God alone by the glory.
@GodsGrace
I believe your statement about my first reply to you will be recanted~but, we shall see.
The rest of your post, I may address in the morning, since one of my granddaughter's is having a softball game that she requested my presence. I do not want to disappoint her.
Fran, I understood you perfectly.
(Emphasis are mine for discussion.) Fran here's exactly what I said, please follow carefully, which it seems you have a little trouble doing so~no pun intended ~but facts are facts.
So, Fran, please show me where I said what you claimed I said....I did not not say that. You are easily confused, which it doesn't surprise me.
There are no "if" in God electing his people, before they had done any good or evil ~ that's a truth of the word of God, that no man can refute.
I believe your statement about my first reply to you will be recanted~but, we shall see.
I agree, especially in the manner you said: "the beginning of" ~because sanctification is one one sense progressive.
No problem I did so above just for you Miss Fran. Now, I do know what you prefer, so no problem moving forward.
My apologies to you, I'll be more careful in the future, I do not do this on purpose. It is part of my caloric temperament, that most men are born with, if a true man.
The rest of your post, I may address in the morning, since one of my granddaughter's is having a softball game that she requested my presence. I do not want to disappoint her.
MTMattie
Well-known member
@ Kermos
Please tell us what you believe faith is and why it is or is not needed.
Thank you
GodsGrace
Well-known member
What does your above statement mean?
" It is part of my caloric temperament, that most men are born with, if a true man. "
Are you trying to tell me you're a hot, dashing guy??
LOL
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Many Calvinists, such as @brightfame52 , believe that non-calvinists are not saved.
Apparently, they believe that their doctrine wills save them and not Jesus...
I find this amusing since it's the reformed/calvinist theology that is heretical because it does not teach
what mainline Christianity teaches.
And yet,,,,I believe they are still saved persons that are just following wrong teachings of man.
NO ONE can claim to know whether or not a person is saved.
Only GOD can know this.
You're doing a good job of preaching the true gospel.
Praise God!
God had you illustrate 5 angles about salvation with hyperlinks to Holy Scripture:
Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).
I am blessed to have read the post.
Regeneration before believing the Gospel? Seriously? So you can be regenerated (alive in Christ) and yet still not believing (still dead in sins)? That makes you a Living Dead person during that time period, a zombie monstrocity that only calvinists are perfectly ok with.
@GodsGrace
That's not the definition of one that is mainly of a choleric temperament.
I'am anything but hot and dashing at my age, and I may add...not even in my youth. So, there, can we get back to the subject? .....a more pleasing discussion.
@GodsGrace @Muckah
Charity and holiness based upon the the teachings of the scriptures is truly the most scriptural mark of a child of God, I would say, not so much doctrine. Most can learn doctrine, no one can have true charity and bible holiness, by being taught, both comes from the heart of a new man within a person.
I may make one exception: No child of God will deny that Jesus was not God manifest in human flesh, such a person is an antichrist child of the devil.
This statement is not true. I have been around Calvinist most of my life as a Christian, and have never heard one of them even hinted that folks are not children of God that does not believe as they do. Besides, both Calvinist and non-Calvinist need a salvation of better understanding than what they possess. I will add this: most hyper Calvinist believe that most are children of God if they show a love, fear and zeal for God regardless of their church affiliation~because they separate regeneration from conversion as they should do! But truly only God knows those that are his, we do not.
2nd Timothy 2:19
“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”Charity and holiness based upon the the teachings of the scriptures is truly the most scriptural mark of a child of God, I would say, not so much doctrine. Most can learn doctrine, no one can have true charity and bible holiness, by being taught, both comes from the heart of a new man within a person.
I may make one exception: No child of God will deny that Jesus was not God manifest in human flesh, such a person is an antichrist child of the devil.
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@synergy
In the meantime, explain such scriptures as:
Christ using a double verily shows us that most will not believe that which he is about to make known, so he used the double verily to point out a truth that most have never considered.
That truth is this: A person who can hear and believe "ALREADY HAS" everlasting life, not that he will receive life by doing so! Such a person has already passed from death unto eternal life. Truths that men like you mock. A very dangerous deed to do ~ Not understanding, or even believing this truth is one thing, but to mock this truth is altogether different act before God that He will not take lightly.
Absolutely regeneration must proceed faith, any person with a little common sense ( spiritually speaking, of course...... I'm well aware of the fact that common sense is not too common anymore and folks like you prove this to me! ) of the scriptures know this to be so. I have eighteen grandchildren with the youngest almost seven, and I know without a doubt that it could take me less than five minute to explain to him when a person can and cannot hear, see and understand by pointing out to Daniel that life must proceed action and where there is no life there cannot be any action.
Then Mr Work Monger (saying this based on your pseudonym name you have chosen to use that you are so proud of) come to John 3:1-8 and let's us debate those scriptures given for the sole purpose to show God's children that regeneration must proceed true faith in the scriptures.
In the meantime, explain such scriptures as:
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”Christ using a double verily shows us that most will not believe that which he is about to make known, so he used the double verily to point out a truth that most have never considered.
That truth is this: A person who can hear and believe "ALREADY HAS" everlasting life, not that he will receive life by doing so! Such a person has already passed from death unto eternal life. Truths that men like you mock. A very dangerous deed to do ~ Not understanding, or even believing this truth is one thing, but to mock this truth is altogether different act before God that He will not take lightly.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Just kidding RB.
You're sooooo serious!
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GodsGrace
Well-known member
This is what @brightfame52 stated to the other member:
"Its the right order, you not of God, you cannot hear His word Spiritually".
He's telling the other member that he is wrong about the order of salvation because
HE IS NOT OF GOD and so cannot hear God spiritually.
This, IMO, is a serious accusation since we cannot know if a person is saved or not...only God can know this.
Brightfame stated that he is NOT OF GOD....a person that is not of God...can only be an unsaved person.
You say that MOST HYPER CALVINISTS believe that MOST are children of God...
What does the other part of Hyper Calvinists believe??
This we can agree upon, I mean that we cannot know who is saved or not.
Agreed.
I have no authority to reply to this.
Only God will decide.
I WILL say that if a person does not believe Jesus is God, he should not define himself as Christian.
Let's look at John 5:24 without adding words like "already" to it as all Bible manipulators are so eager to do.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (NKJV)
It's a conditional cause/effect statement. The condition is that one hears and believes in Him. The verbs "hears" and "believes" are aorist continuous action verbs in the Greek. These synergistic actions are the instrumental cause of the everlasting life that is graciously gifted to believers by God. Thus, all believers have passed from death to life. Calvinist zombies, "regenerated" unbelievers, are still dead in their sins.
You, @MTMattie, and @Eternally-Grateful say "belief is how we are saved and born again" which is the exact opposite of Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John's saying "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1).
The Word of God declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so Holy Scripture's every occurrence of saving faith is controlled by the love of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:14).
You wrote "hope this helps", and Lord Jesus has used it in the furtherance of proclaiming the Gospel of Christ by causing me to compose this post filled with the Truth (John 14:6).
Let's take a closer look at those verses that you think describe different phases of salvation.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
What was given before the ages began was "his purpose and grace". That is, the plan of salvation was established even before the creation of the world and mankind. There is nothing in that verse to indicate anything about anyone actually being saved before the creation.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
That establishes only the reason that Jesus became a man; that reason being to save sinners. Nothing there says that anyone was actually saved when Jesus came into the world. In fact, salvation even to those OT saints did not actually occur until the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The plan laid out and the actuation of the plan are not one and the same.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
That is a very important passage of scripture. It relates the mechanism by which one is saved under the New Covenant. The washing of regeneration is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. the renewing of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling Holy Spirit, i.e, being born again, regeneration. It is not a statement about any "phase of salvation". The key verb in verse 5 is, “He saved us.” This is in the past tense, which means it is referring to a single past completed action. To be sure, there are present and future aspects of salvation that have not been completely worked out yet. Nevertheless, at some specific point in each individual Christian’s past there was a single act of God, the effect of which was to save us. We can say of ourselves that we have been saved. Here again, this is not speaking to some "phase of salvation"; it is speaking of the actual event in the life of every person who has been saved.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Here again, this is not speaking about some other "phase of salvation". It is an appeal directed to Timothy, to which we can take heed, for him to persevere in his faith. Paul began this chapter warning about the possibility of giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils and thus departing from the faith. It is a statement that we maintain our salvation though faith just as we came to salvation through faith.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
This is specifically speaking of the time in the future when the promised result of salvation will be realized. It is not another "phase of salvation", rather it is the culmination of being saved, the attainment of eternal life in heaven with Christ Jesus.
Therefore all of your theories about the five different "phases of salvation" is nothing more than a very poor construct, hopefully, to support your misguided soteriology. The truth is that there is a point in time in the life of the repentant believer when God saves him and that is by grace through faith. From that point on, so long as he continues to believe in God, he is in a state of justification and regeneration, in a state of having been saved; that is salvation. Thus, having been saved at that instant in time, it is the beginning point for a process that lasts throughout his life and reaches perfection in heaven. This process is usually called sanctification.
