An Article on free will

[GodsGrace]

For clarity, the English word sin which is the Greek word hamartía, has the definition as follows:

​

Sin: not a part, missing the mark.​

hamartía (a feminine noun derived from 1 /A "not" and 3313 /méros, "a part, share of") – properly, no-share ("no part of"); loss (forfeiture) because not hitting the target; sin (missing the mark) (def from 266. hamartia HELPS Word-studies section).Sin is "not a part" of God, or said another way, "missing the mark" established by God, like missing the bull's eye of a target, sin is when a person does not do as God commands whether ignorantly or not.​

​

No Holy Scripture states free-will exists, but Holy Scripture does state self-will exists:

​

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties​

(2 Peter 2:9-10)​

​

Your declaration "Sin cannot even be defined in the absence of free will" proves that your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!

Who cares what the Greek word is for SIN Kermos.

We all know what SIN is.

@Jim is attempting to speak about common sense to you....
something calvinism is sorely lacking.

IF GOD DECREES EVERY ACT OF MAN.....
There can be no sin
and man cannot be responsible for his sinning since it is God that is CAUSING/DECREEING man to sin in calvinist theology.

James, an Apostle of Jesus teaches this:

James 1:13-14
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God "; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

1. It is not God that tempts you into sin by decreeing it...but it is satan that does this.
2. Verse 14: We are carried away by OUR OWN LUST. This denotes free will which you reject.

 

[Kermos]

Your heart makes false statements about God.

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith states (all Confessions are very similar)

1. From before the beginning of time, God has decided and put into place everything that happens. He makes these decisions freely by His wise and holy will. Nothing He’s put into place can change.

Still, He orders everything in such a way that He’s not the author of sin. And He doesn’t force us to do things against our will. He is the root cause of everything, but this doesn’t mean secondary causes are not involved – in fact, God is the reason other causes exist.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter III
Paragraph 1

Let's examine why Calvinism is not a logical theological system:

1. We're told that from the beginning God has decreed EVERYTHING that will happen.
By His own will, we cannot know His reasons.
These decisions of His cannot be changed.

HOWEVER....
We're also told that He is not the author of sin due to how He plans everything.
He doesn't force us to do anything against our will, and
He is also the author of secondary causes.

SO....does God decree everything OR NOT??
If He decrees EVERYTHING...that includes sinful acts....
INCLUDING secondary causes.

So, there's no way out for God.....
In calvinist theology, God creates evil.

AND
they even use Isaiah 45:7 as a support verse! (it states that God created evil/calamity).

SO...
In calvinist theology God is blasphemed for doing the work of the devil....
attributing to God the works of satan.

Not only does your heart make false statements about God because God IS LOVE and in Him dwells no darkness...
But calvinism also blasphemes God.

That's a whole lot of NOT the Word of God there that comes out of you.

I believe the Word of God, verbatim, below, but your Free-willian Philosophy rejects the Word of God as visibly demonstrated.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING WORD!!!

 

[MTMattie]

That's a whole lot of NOT the Word of God there that comes out of you.

I believe the Word of God, verbatim, below, but your Free-willian Philosophy rejects the Word of God as visibly demonstrated.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING WORD!!!

@Kermos

Are you a prophet?

John Calvin claimed to be..... based on his personal understandingd of what a prophet is and says, and does.

You claim " I believe the Word of God, verbatim," yet you tend to ADD to the Holy Scriptures by your interpretation of what you understand the Holy words say.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) WHO HERE HAS DENIED THIS?

and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) WHO HERE HAS DENIED THIS?

and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) HE WAS NOT TALKING TO OR ABOUT YOU. YA GOT THIS ONE WRONG.

and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) YOU CONTINUE TO CHERRY PICK THESE 7 WORDS. AND YOU CONTINUE TO USE THEM AS YOUR PROOF THAT GOD DOES THE PICKING. BUT... PAY ATTENTION TO THE FULL VERSE

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Can you not see that those chosen were not predetermined. They were chosen once they had been in the world?

John 15:19 Commentary and Explanation​

As we reflect on this verse, it is essential to understand the context of Jesus’ message. In Chapter 15, Jesus speaks to His disciples about His relationship with them, using the metaphor of a vine and branches to illustrate how they are to remain connected to Him. He goes on to explain that despite the challenge of following Him, they are to bear fruit and share His love with others.
AND IN THIS VERSE THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT SALVATION.

and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) BEEN DOING THAT SINCE GRADE SCHOOL.


and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63),
Yes Sirree!!!! You know this, I know this, and every one you falsely accuse on here knows this. You know who didn't? One was Nicodemus who could not or would not understand what Jesus told him face to face about being born again and the spirit rebirth.

so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10). And you are a pseudoprophétés

 

[GodsGrace]

@Kermos

Are you a prophet?

John Calvin claimed to be..... based on his personal understandingd of what a prophet is and says, and does.

You claim " I believe the Word of God, verbatim," yet you tend to ADD to the Holy Scriptures by your interpretation of what you understand the Holy words say.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) WHO HERE HAS DENIED THIS?

and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) WHO HERE HAS DENIED THIS?

and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) HE WAS NOT TALKING TO OR ABOUT YOU. YA GOT THIS ONE WRONG.

and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) YOU CONTINUE TO CHERRY PICK THESE 7 WORDS. AND YOU CONTINUE TO USE THEM AS YOUR PROOF THAT GOD DOES THE PICKING. BUT... PAY ATTENTION TO THE FULL VERSE

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Can you not see that those chosen were not predetermined. They were chosen once they had been in the world?

John 15:19 Commentary and Explanation​

As we reflect on this verse, it is essential to understand the context of Jesus’ message. In Chapter 15, Jesus speaks to His disciples about His relationship with them, using the metaphor of a vine and branches to illustrate how they are to remain connected to Him. He goes on to explain that despite the challenge of following Him, they are to bear fruit and share His love with others.
AND IN THIS VERSE THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT SALVATION.

and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) BEEN DOING THAT SINCE GRADE SCHOOL.


and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63),
Yes Sirree!!!! You know this, I know this, and every one you falsely accuse on here knows this. You know who didn't? One was Nicodemus who could not or would not understand what Jesus told him face to face about being born again and the spirit rebirth.

so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10). And you are a pseudoprophétés

Hi MT....
The problem is that the reformed/calvinist believer reads predestination into every verse....
This clouds the judgment and does not allow them to see THE TRUTH of scripture.

That God loves everyone. John 3:16
That God invites everyone to salvation Acts 16:31

Just look at all those verses that @Kermos posted....none having anything to do with reformed theology and none
that rejects free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's a whole lot of NOT the Word of God there that comes out of you.

I believe the Word of God, verbatim, below, but your Free-willian Philosophy rejects the Word of God as visibly demonstrated.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING WORD!!!

I hope you understand, Kermos, as @MTMattie has pointed out, that NONE of the verses you posted have anything to do with Calvinism.

You made the following statement in your post which you highlighted in blue...
here it is:

"apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation",

Sounds to me like you are probably saying that apart from Christ we cannot believe in Christ.
Could you post a verse that states this?

We are apart from Christ until we are in Christ.
When we are in Christ we are already saved and require no further salvation.

Here is what Paul states:
Acts 16:31
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
First we believe
AND THEN
we are saved.


Our belief, our faith, is what saves us:
Ephesians 2:8a
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

We are saved THROUGH FAITH....
Through faith we are saved.

First faith,
AND THEN
salvation.

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings @GodsGrace

WHY would a person need to hear God's word IF he's already saved?

Fran, you, @Jim, @civic @MTMattie, and others no doubt I could mention, show a true zeal of God, yet without true biblical knowledge. Let me explain myself, if I may, with you considering what I have to say. @Jim knows well what I will say, since he has heard this a few times over in the past fifteen years form me, so I pray he will just bear with me while I go over this with you mainly, and my brother civic.

Fran, please consider that the words save/saved/salvation are used by the Holy Ghost in different sense in the scriptures, this is not my private understanding, but a truth known by saints in the past and taught clearly by them, but almost unknown in our days by the average person sitting in churches throughout this world.

You asked:

WHY would a person need to hear God's word IF he's already saved?

Your question should have been asked: "Why would a person need to hear God's word IF he's already born again?" Fran, one can be born again, like Nicodemus, yet, but still needed to be saved from his ignorance of the scriptures like the subject of the new birth, etc.; and if not the new birth, (which most are truly ignorant of) then it could be a list of other doctrines that all, without an exception, are totally ignorant of until they grow in grace and knowledge of the truth, and btw, this takes years in most cases, and even then, none of us are totally free of error, because we all live in a body of SIN and DEATH where ignorance reigns. So, my sister, please consider: how God uses the words : save/saved/salvation.

Fran, When Were You Saved?​

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).

Fran, can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (2nd Timothy 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. Let us learn the five phases briefly.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now. This is true of all of God's children.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

For example, sanctification means to be made holy for the use of God. We are sanctified, or made holy, in five stages. First, God chose us to be holy before the world began. Second, Jesus died to make us holy legally, or positionally. Third, the Spirit gives us a new holy nature that loves holiness. Fourth, we obey the gospel to live active holy lives. And fifth, we shall be made wholly holy, even with holy bodies, in the last day.

Fran, when someone asks you, “When were you saved?” you should ask them which phase are they is asking about! You were saved before creation in God’s elective plan; you were saved at the cross in His legal provision; you were saved at an unknown time in your life by the Spirit’s regeneration; you were saved to a fuller knowledge and assurance of the truth by the gospel many times over during your lifetime of reading, searching, praying, etc. ~ and we will yet be saved at our Lord’s coming,

Coming back later to finish answering your post.

 

[Jim]

For clarity, the English word sin which is the Greek word hamartía, has the definition as follows:

​

Sin: not a part, missing the mark.​

hamartía (a feminine noun derived from 1 /A "not" and 3313 /méros, "a part, share of") – properly, no-share ("no part of"); loss (forfeiture) because not hitting the target; sin (missing the mark) (def from 266. hamartia HELPS Word-studies section).Sin is "not a part" of God, or said another way, "missing the mark" established by God, like missing the bull's eye of a target, sin is when a person does not do as God commands whether ignorantly or not.​

​

No Holy Scripture states free-will exists, but Holy Scripture does state self-will exists:

​

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties​

(2 Peter 2:9-10)​

​

Your declaration "Sin cannot even be defined in the absence of free will" proves that your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!

Self-will but not free-will. That is more than a little weird. Every command that God has given man is a scriptural statement of free will. In fact, it is your free will that is being exercised here to make some of your really silly statements; they are not something that you are forced to make; rather, you choose to make them of your own free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings @GodsGrace

Fran, you, @Jim, @civic @MTMattie, and others no doubt I could mention, show a true zeal of God, yet without true biblical knowledge. Let me explain myself, if I may, with you considering what I have to say. @Jim knows well what I will say, since he has heard this a few times over in the past fifteen years form me, so I pray he will just bear with me while I go over this with you mainly, and my brother civic.

Fran, please consider that the words save/saved/salvation are used by the Holy Ghost in different sense in the scriptures, this is not my private understanding, but a truth known by saints in the past and taught clearly by them, but almost unknown in our days by the average person sitting in churches throughout this world.

You asked:

Your question should have been asked: "Why would a person need to hear God's word IF he's already born again?" Fran, one can be born again, like Nicodemus, yet, but still needed to be saved from his ignorance of the scriptures like the subject of the new birth, etc.; and if not the new birth, (which most are truly ignorant of) then it could be a list of other doctrines that all, without an exception, are totally ignorant of until they grow in grace and knowledge of the truth, and btw, this takes years in most cases, and even then, none of us are totally free of error, because we all live in a body of SIN and DEATH where ignorance reigns. So, my sister, please consider: how God uses the words : save/saved/salvation.

Are you saying that a person cannot be saved/born again UNLESS he knows scripture??

Fran, When Were You Saved?​

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Many can remember a particular moment in time when they became aware of God and said YES to Him.
To deny this is to deny the experience of a person, which we are not to judge.

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).

If you want to post scripture RB...
THEN POST SCRIPTURE.
Post the actual verse you wish to discuss.
I'm not doing all the work for you.

Fran, can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

Are you Catholic??

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (2nd Timothy 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Please explain ORDO SALUTIS for those of us who just can't seem to understand the order of salvation.
And you should stop speaking to persons (at least me), as if I became a Christian yesterday.
Thanks.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. Let us learn the five phases briefly.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world

WHERE in the bible does it state that God ALLOWED (as calvinists understand this) sin into the world?

and to save His elect from it.

I'm really ignorant RB.
Could you explain WHO THE ELECT ARE?

Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

Nice.
Thanks for being honest to the Confessions and to the Institutes.

So God planned to have evil in the world.
This qualifies as blasphemy.

ATTRIBUTING TO GOD
THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL.

That's what blasphemy is.
Matthew 12:31-32
31 "Therefore * I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 "Whoever * speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever * speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

The above was said by Jesus after He cast out a demon from a man and was accused by the Pharisees of using the power of satan to do this.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect.

Could you please explain what JUSTICE is?
I've asked you before, and also other Calvinists, but I NEVER get a reply.
I don't believe you know what JUSTICE is.

Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

Oh. I just love theology lessons.
Copy and paste ain't so bad either.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now. This is true of all of God's children.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

For example, sanctification means to be made holy for the use of God. We are sanctified, or made holy, in five stages. First, God chose us to be holy before the world began. Second, Jesus died to make us holy legally, or positionally. Third, the Spirit gives us a new holy nature that loves holiness. Fourth, we obey the gospel to live active holy lives. And fifth, we shall be made wholly holy, even with holy bodies, in the last day.

Fran, when someone asks you, “When were you saved?” you should ask them which phase are they is asking about! You were saved before creation in God’s elective plan; you were saved at the cross in His legal provision; you were saved at an unknown time in your life by the Spirit’s regeneration; you were saved to a fuller knowledge and assurance of the truth by the gospel many times over during your lifetime of reading, searching, praying, etc. ~ and we will yet be saved at our Lord’s coming,

Coming back later to finish answering your post.

I stopped reading.
Look RB...if you want to discuss something with me,,,
then just do it.
I don't have a lot of time to devote here.
Not that I wouldn't want to.

Stop copying and pasting. Make believe we're having a REAL conversation.
And stop treating me like I just opened a bible a few days ago.

OR
If you're tired,,,just don't reply.

 

[Kermos]

Who cares what the Greek word is for SIN Kermos.

We all know what SIN is.

@Jim is attempting to speak about common sense to you....
something calvinism is sorely lacking.

IF GOD DECREES EVERY ACT OF MAN.....
There can be no sin
and man cannot be responsible for his sinning since it is God that is CAUSING/DECREEING man to sin in calvinist theology.

James, an Apostle of Jesus teaches this:

James 1:13-14
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God "; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

1. It is not God that tempts you into sin by decreeing it...but it is satan that does this.
2. Verse 14: We are carried away by OUR OWN LUST. This denotes free will which you reject.

You seem to be lost in understanding the postings in this thread. You wrote "Who cares what the Greek word is for SIN Kermos", but your free-willian friend Jim posted "Sin cannot even be defined in the absence of free will", so the love of Christ controlled me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to explain that sin can be defined in the absence of free will.

Apparently Jim cared enough to make his statement.

I might just ignore your posts because of your lack of attentivness.

 

[Jim]

Greetings @GodsGrace

Fran, you, @Jim, @civic @MTMattie, and others no doubt I could mention, show a true zeal of God, yet without true biblical knowledge. Let me explain myself, if I may, with you considering what I have to say. @Jim knows well what I will say, since he has heard this a few times over in the past fifteen years form me, so I pray he will just bear with me while I go over this with you mainly, and my brother civic.

Fran, please consider that the words save/saved/salvation are used by the Holy Ghost in different sense in the scriptures, this is not my private understanding, but a truth known by saints in the past and taught clearly by them, but almost unknown in our days by the average person sitting in churches throughout this world.

You asked:

Your question should have been asked: "Why would a person need to hear God's word IF he's already born again?" Fran, one can be born again, like Nicodemus, yet, but still needed to be saved from his ignorance of the scriptures like the subject of the new birth, etc.; and if not the new birth, (which most are truly ignorant of) then it could be a list of other doctrines that all, without an exception, are totally ignorant of until they grow in grace and knowledge of the truth, and btw, this takes years in most cases, and even then, none of us are totally free of error, because we all live in a body of SIN and DEATH where ignorance reigns. So, my sister, please consider: how God uses the words : save/saved/salvation.

Fran, When Were You Saved?​

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Timothy 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Timothy 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Romans 13:11).

Fran, can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (2nd Timothy 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. Let us learn the five phases briefly.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now. This is true of all of God's children.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

For example, sanctification means to be made holy for the use of God. We are sanctified, or made holy, in five stages. First, God chose us to be holy before the world began. Second, Jesus died to make us holy legally, or positionally. Third, the Spirit gives us a new holy nature that loves holiness. Fourth, we obey the gospel to live active holy lives. And fifth, we shall be made wholly holy, even with holy bodies, in the last day.

Fran, you, , @civic, @MTMattie, and others no doubt @Red Baker could mention need to understand that @Red Baker has never quite distinguished the difference between God's plan of salvation and His act of saving someone. Thus. the need to invent these five so-called phases of salvation in order to make the Augustinian/Calvinist-based soteriology seem halfway rational.

Fran, when someone asks you, “When were you saved?” you should ask them which phase are they is asking about! You were saved before creation in God’s elective plan; you were saved at the cross in His legal provision; you were saved at an unknown time in your life by the Spirit’s regeneration; you were saved to a fuller knowledge and assurance of the truth by the gospel many times over during your lifetime of reading, searching, praying, etc. ~ and we will yet be saved at our Lord’s coming,

There is a single point in the time in the life of the born again believer in God when he ceases from being a lost sinner and becomes an eternal life saint. That occurs when the lost sinner becomes justified, regenerated and initially sanctified. Justification and regeneration are one-time actions of God. Sanctification is initiated that same instant in time by God. Those actions constituted by God at that single point in time constitutes His act of salvation. Sanctification also speaks to the life-long progressive process of the spiritual growth of the one who has been saved.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

Are you saying that a person cannot be saved/born again UNLESS he knows scriptures?

No Fran, I'm not saying a person cannot be born again unless that person knows scriptures. Born again children of God, spend their life learning truths, and as I said above, we never perfect it the way Christ himself taught it, some get very close to perfection of the truth like Paul, but even the great Peter had more trouble than Paul did, who had very little trouble in comparison to Christ, who had perfect knowledge of the truth. SO, my answer to you is no, I'm not saying according to the question that you asked.

Many can remember a particular moment in time when they became aware of God and said YES to Him.
To deny this is to deny the experience of a person, which we are not to judge.

Fran, I would not disagree that all of us can remember a point in time when we became converted from following the ways of the world to following Christ, the word of God, and seeking to do his will. That point in time is when we "first" were converted, yet though always associated with regeneration, actually it is the beginning of one's conversion, which process is a continuous process our whole life as a believer. Regeneration and conversion are not the same doctrine, even if people merge them into one and the same doctrine.

Luke 22:32​

“But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

Peter was a child of God that sinned, yet after he was converted back to teh truth he was to used his conversion to strengthen the brethren. Conversion is a lifelong process for God's children going from error to truth almost monthly, differently yearly, etc. If the are growing in grace and knowledge of the truth as they should be doing.

Please take time to read this excellent article written by a saint still living almost pushing 100 years old. https://letgodbetrue.com/bible-topics/index/salvation/regeneration-and-conversion-roland/

If you want to post scripture RB...
THEN POST SCRIPTURE.
Post the actual verse you wish to discuss.
I'm not doing all the work for you.

Fran, not sure what you mean by doing all this work for me, I'm capable of doing my work, trust me. I give reference to save time and space, most of the time those reading the reference is good enough for them, since they know the scriptures, references are only given to jolt their memory nothing more.

Are you Catholic??

Is the Pope a high Calvinist? Catholicism is part of the great whore of Revelation 17b and the biggest one of them, and the Pope is one of many man of sin, and I may add the the most visible one known throughout this world.

Please explain ORDO SALUTIS for those of us who just can't seem to understand the order of salvation.
And you should stop speaking to persons (at least me), as if I became a Christian yesterday.
Thanks.

Well, it seems you truly do not really care to know, since as you said, STOP speaking to me as if I became a Christian yesterday.

WHERE in the bible does it state that God ALLOWED (as calvinists understand this) sin into the world?

I have to leave to go out of town for a few hours, coming back to finish. I will leave you with this~God's knowledge is infinite both ways, so we all know that God knew perfectly the end from the beginning, so he knew what would happen if he did create, so we both must agree that this did not stop him from creating, so in this sense he allow sin to come into this world knowing before the very end from the beginning. Could God created and not allow sin to come into his creation? You answer that question for me. And if He allow sin to enter into His creation, WHY DID HE DO SO? Can you answer this?

I'll be back, but must leave shortly. RB

 

[GodsGrace]

You seem to be lost in understanding the postings in this thread. You wrote "Who cares what the Greek word is for SIN Kermos", but your free-willian friend Jim posted "Sin cannot even be defined in the absence of free will", so the love of Christ controlled me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to explain that sin can be defined in the absence of free will.

Apparently Jim cared enough to make his statement.

I DID make a statement Kermos.

@Jim is 100% correct....
In the system of Calvinism...SIN DOES NOT EXIST.

Why?

Because, in the calvinist belief system, it is God that decrees everything...
INCLUDING SINFUL ACTS.

The bible teaches that sin is disobedience to God.
When man is DISOBEDIENT TO GOD...he sins.

In the Calvinist system there is no such idea of DISOBIENCE TO GOD
SINCE IT IS GOD that determines everything that will happen...
EVEN SIN.

So man, not being responsible of sin...is ABSOLVED OF IT entirely.

My attention span may be very short...
but let's see if you could pay attention to the above,
understand it,
and give a reasonable reply.

I might just ignore your posts because of your lack of attentivness.

Or, because I'm TOO attentive.

 

[Kermos]

Great, we are making inroads! And no-I am not a universalist.

J.

The Great I AM be magnified! And your "no" to the question "Does condemned to hell Nancy have Christ's salvation" shows that people like Nancy are not part of all men having Christ's salvation in (Titus 2:11); in other words, all men in (Titus 2:11) obviously refers not to everyone having Christ's salvation but only to God's chosen people having Christ's salvation, so here we find Christ's always successful atonement!

Thank you, Johann, for answering the question in the post to which you replied.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

No Fran, I'm not saying a person cannot be born again unless that person knows scriptures. Born again children of God, spend their life learning truths, and as I said above, we never perfect it the way Christ himself taught it, some get very close to perfection of the truth like Paul, but even the great Peter had more trouble than Paul did, who had very little trouble in comparison to Christ, who had perfect knowledge of the truth. SO, my answer to you is no, I'm not saying according to the question that you asked.

You don't understand what I asked RB.
YOU made a statement saying that some are ignorant of scripture and cannot be born again.
THIS statement of yours sounds like someone MUST KNOW scripture IN ORDER to be born again.

1. This is not true.
2. Why would it be true if it is GOD that chooses who will be saved and, in Calvinist theology, He doesn't even let mankind know why.

So your reply is not to my question.

Fran, I would not disagree that all of us can remember a point in time when we became converted from following the ways of the world to following Christ, the word of God, and seeking to do his will. That point in time is when we "first" were converted, yet though always associated with regeneration, actually it is the beginning of one's conversion, which process is a continuous process our whole life as a believer. Regeneration and conversion are not the same doctrine, even if people merge them into one and the same doctrine.

Luke 22:32​

“But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”

I agree that justification and the beginning of sanctification/conversion are pretty much simultaneous.
However, Christianity teaches that JUSTIFICATION comes BEFORE CONVERSION.

THIS is important because it is what the bible teaches.

Peter was a child of God that sinned, yet after he was converted back to teh truth he was to used his conversion to strengthen the brethren. Conversion is a lifelong process for God's children going from error to truth almost monthly, differently yearly, etc. If the are growing in grace and knowledge of the truth as they should be doing.

Agreed.

Please take time to read this excellent article written by a saint still living almost pushing 100 years old. https://letgodbetrue.com/bible-topics/index/salvation/regeneration-and-conversion-roland/

No thanks.
I like to read Paul and the other writers...and Jesus of course.

Fran, not sure what you mean by doing all this work for me, I'm capable of doing my work, trust me. I give reference to save time and space, most of the time those reading the reference is good enough for them, since they know the scriptures, references are only given to jolt their memory nothing more.

You do what the confessions do.
You make a statement and then in parenthesis you put scripture verses.
Am I supposed to look up these scripture verses?
NO:
IF you want to support your statement with a verse..
you must post that verse.
Putting them in parenthesis will not motivate a response.

Is the Pope a high Calvinist? Catholicism is part of the great whore of Revelation 17b and the biggest one of them, and the Pope is one of many man of sin, and I may add the the most visible one known throughout this world.

You made a Catholic statement.
Tongue in cheek.
No problem.

Well, it seems you truly do not really care to know, since as you said, STOP speaking to me as if I became a Christian yesterday.

I know what ORDO SALUTIS is.
Have you not been able to discern this from my writings to you?
I made a statement just above that SHOULD show you that I don't agree with YOUR ordo salutis.

And yes, please stop speaking to me as if I began my bible studies yesterday.
It would be appreciated.

I have to leave to go out of town for a few hours, coming back to finish. I will leave you with this~God's knowledge is infinite both ways, so we all know that God knew perfectly the end from the beginning,

Agreed.
But He DID NOT predestinate everything that would happen...
and
He did not choose who would go to heaven or hell.
WE make that decision, as is taught in scripture.

so he knew what would happen if he did create, so we both must agree that this did not stop him from creating, so in this sense he allow sin to come into this world knowing before the very end from the beginning.

RB...KNOWING something,,,ALLOWING something
is very different from
CAUSING SOMETHING.

Make up your mind:
Does God ALLOW
or does God CAUSE?

Could God created and not allow sin to come into his creation? You answer that question for me. And if He allow sin to enter into His creation, WHY DID HE DO SO? Can you answer this?

I'll be back, but must leave shortly. RB

Sure.
Have a nice day.

 

[MTMattie]

Fran, you, , @civic, @MTMattie, and others no doubt @Red Baker could mention need to understand that @Red Baker has never quite distinguished the difference between God's plan of salvation and His act of saving someone. Thus. the need to invent these five so-called phases of salvation in order to make the Augustinian/Calvinist-based soteriology seem halfway rational.

I cannot help myself when I see these 5 phases of salvation of thinking of the 5 points of TULIP. Such a complicated belief system.......

There is a single point in the time in the life of the born again believer in God when he ceases from being a lost sinner and becomes an eternal life saint. That occurs when the lost sinner becomes justified, regenerated and initially sanctified. Justification and regeneration are one-time actions of God. Sanctification is initiated that same instant in time by God. Those actions constituted by God at that single point in time constitutes His act of salvation. Sanctification also speaks to the life-long progressive process of the spiritual growth of the one who has been saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

I cannot help myself when I see these 5 phases of salvation of thinking of the 5 points of TULIP. Such a complicated belief system.......

Amen sister!
God made it simple....
man complicates it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hello @Muckah,

I noticed your posts staunchly supporting the Free-willian Philosophy recently in this thread.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your

Actually this is your pipe dream of what he said and what he believes,

He never made any such claim

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is no such thing as sin if there is no free will - PERIOD. Sin cannot even be defined in the absence of free will.

Amen.

You can't hold a person accountable. if they had no choice in the matter,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

WHY would a person need to hear God's word IF he's aleady saved?

Exactly

 

[civic]

Amen.

You can't hold a person accountable. if they had no choice in the matter,

some believe we are nothing but preprogrammed robots and Gods sovereignty included every sinful choice you make and every ungodly deed. Its a monsterous god some believe in like the greeks/gnostics do with their pagan gods.