An Article on free will

that the law

faith is never a work in scripture

next fallacy.

Oh, so then In post #7,910, you did not really mean faith is mans responsibility" in which you assign the work of faith to yourself.

The Word of God declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), so faith in us believers is the the work of God.

The Word of God is NO FALLACY!
 
Guilt is not inherited. Whether or not that is a Pelagian view not an issue with me. It is not apparent what difference you see between what you listed as the Pelagian view and the Moderate Evangelical view. I don't know if I would say that there is an inclination to sin. What I would offer is that man was created with free will and when presented with God's law he always is presented with some that he chooses to disobey. I am not sure that I would equate that with an "inclination to sin", although it seems pretty close to that.
A very simplified view on how I believe Rom. 5.


SIN ENTERED HUMANITY THRU ADAM



1) "Wherefore as by one man " (dia touto hosper di’ henos anthropon) "Therefore just as through one man;" Adam the head of the human race, through which channel sin began to flow in the blood stream of humanity, Gen_2:17; Gen_3:3.

2) "Sin entered into the world," (he hamartia eis ton kosmon eiselthen) "The sin entered into the world, created universe;" When Adam by premeditation and intent aforethought disobeyed God, sin entered into the man-world or world of Man; Rom_5:19. This one man's sin made the many (masses) sinners.

3) "And death by sin," (kai dia tes hamartias ho thanatos) "And death (entered) through the sin," of one man. There could be no infant mortality; no infant would die if there were no sin in his being, Rom_5:17-19; 1Co_15:21-22; Rom_6:23. Death is the wages of sin.

4) "And so death passed upon all men," (kai houtos eis pantos anthropous ho thanatos dielthen) "So also the universal death principle passed into all men;" After Adam's sin every child conceived, begotten, or born into the human race inherited the germ of physical and spiritual death from conception, Psa_51:5; Psa_58:3; Jas_1:15; Rom_3:23.

5) "For that all have sinned," (eph’ ho pantes hemarton) "Inasmuch as all sinned;" all in human history had sinned, 1Ki_8:46; Ecc_7:20; All not only have sinned but all are also sinners by nature, with the contagious, incurable, sin-germ of death in the body, bringing on judicially appointed death, Jas_1:15; Heb_9:27.

--and Utley--


Rom_5:12 "Therefore" Romans has several strategically placed "therefores" (cf. Rom_5:1; Rom_8:1; Rom_12:1). The interpretive question is to what they relate. They could be a way of referring to Paul's whole argument. For sure this one relates to Genesis and, therefore, probably back to Rom_1:18-32.

"as through one man sin entered into the world" All three verbs in Rom_5:12 are aorist tense. Adam's fall brought death (cf. 1Co_15:22). The Bible does not dwell on the origin of sin. Sin also occurred in the angelic realm (cf. Genesis 3 and Rev_12:7-9). How and when are uncertain (cf. Isa_14:12-27; Eze_28:12-19; Job_4:18; Mat_25:41; Luk_10:18; Joh_12:31; Rev_12:7-9).
Adam's sin involved two aspects (1) disobedience to a specific commandment (cf. Gen_2:16-17), and (2) self-oriented pride (cf. Gen_3:5-6). This continues the allusion to Genesis 3 begun in Rom_1:18-32.

It is the theology of sin that so clearly separates Paul from rabbinical thought. The rabbis did not focus on Genesis 3; they asserted instead, that there were two "intents" (yetzers) in every person. Their famous rabbinical saying "In every man's heart is a black and a white dog. The one you feed the most becomes the biggest." Paul saw sin as a major barrier between holy God and His creation. Paul was not a systematic theologian (cf. James Steward's A Man in Christ). He gave several origins of sin (1) Adam's fall, (2) satanic temptation, and (3) continuing human rebellion (i.e., Eph_2:2-3).
In the theological contrasts and parallels between Adam and Jesus two possible implications are present.
1. Adam was a real historical person.
2. Jesus was a real human being.

Both of these truths affirm the Bible in the face of false teaching. Notice the repeated use of "one man" or "the one." These two ways of referring to Adam and Jesus are used eleven times in this context.

"one man" This generic phrase (lit. henos anthrôpou) is used to represent Adam (Rom_5:12; Rom_5:16-19) or Jesus (Rom_5:15 [twice], 17 [twice], 18,19). They each represent a group or community (i.e., "many," cf. Rom_5:15 [twice], 19[twice]; "all," cf. Rom_5:12-13; Rom_5:18 [twice]).

"death through sin" Augustine first coined the term "original sin." It describes the consequences of Adam/Eve's choices in Genesis 3. Their rebellion has affected all of creation. Humans are impacted by
1. a fallen world system
2. a personal tempter
3. a fallen nature

Original sin (Rom_5:12-14; Rom_5:16 a,17) forms a partnership with personal sin (Rom_5:12 d,16b) to make all humans sinful! Sin results in "death" (cf. Rom_1:32; Rom_6:13; Rom_6:16; Rom_6:21; Rom_6:23; Rom_7:5; Rom_7:9-11; Rom_7:13; Rom_7:24; Rom_8:13).
The Jerome Biblical Commentary (p. 308) mentions the rabbinical tradition that there were three periods of history.
1. Adam - Moses
2. Moses - Messiah
3. Messiah - eschaton

If Paul was thinking of these divisions then
1. Adam - Moses (original sin, no law but death)
2. Moses - Messiah (personal sin, violation of law)
3. Messiah - (freedom from the Law/law through grace)

"death spread to all men" The major thrust of this paragraph is the universality of the consequences of sin (cf. Rom_5:16-19; 1Co_15:22; Gal_1:10), which is death.
1. spiritual death - Gen_2:17; Gen_3:1-24; Isa_59:2; Rom_7:10-11; Eph_2:1; Col_2:13; Jas_1:15
2. physical death - Gen_3:4-5; Gen_5:1-32
3. eternal death - Rev_2:11; Rev_20:6; Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8

"because all sinned" All humans sin in Adam corporately (i.e., inherited a sinful state and a sinful propensity.) Because of this each person chooses to sin personally and repeatedly. The Bible is emphatic that all humans are sinners both corporately and individually (cf. 1Ki_8:46; 2Ch_6:36; Psa_14:1-2; Psa_130:3; Psa_143:2; Pro_20:9; Ecc_7:20; Isa_9:17; Isa_53:6; Rom_3:9-18; Rom_3:23; Rom_5:18; Rom_11:32; Gal_3:22; 1Jn_1:8-10).

Yet it must be said that the contextual emphasis (cf. Rom_5:15-19) is that one act caused death (Adam) and one act causes life (Jesus). However, God has so structured His relationship to humanity that human volition is a significant aspect of "lostness" and "justification." Humans are volitionally involved in their future destinies! They continue to choose sin or they choose Christ. They cannot affect these two choices, but they do volitionally show to which they belong!

The translation "because" is common, but its meaning is often disputed. Paul used eph' hô in 2Co_5:4; Php_3:12; and Php_4:10 in the sense of "because." Thus each and every human chooses to personally participate in sin and rebellion against God. Some by rejecting special revelation, but all by rejecting natural revelation (cf. Rom_1:18 to Rom_3:20).
Rom_5:13-14 This same truth is taught in Rom_3:20; Rom_4:15 and Act_17:30. God is fair. Humans are only responsible for what is available to them. This verse is speaking exclusively of special revelation (OT, Jesus, NT), not natural revelation (Psa_19:1-6; Rom_1:18-23; Rom_2:11-16).
Notice that the NKJV sees the comparison of Rom_5:12 as separated by a long parenthesis (cf. Rom_5:13-17) from its conclusion in Rom_5:18-21.
Rom_5:14
NASB, NKJV,
NJB "death reigned"
NRSV "death exercised dominion"
TEV "death ruled"

Death reigned as a King (cf. Rom_5:17; Rom_5:21). This personification of death and sin as tyrants is sustained throughout this chapter and Romans 6. The universal experience of death confirms the universal sin of mankind. In Rom_5:17; Rom_5:21, grace is personified. Grace reigns! Humans have a choice (the two ways of the OT, i.e., death or life, cf. Deu_11:26; Deu_30:1; Deu_30:19), death or life. Who reigns in your life?

"even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offence of Adam" Adam violated a stated command of God (i.e., Gen_2:15-17), even Eve did not sin in this same way. She heard from Adam about the tree, not from God directly. Humans from Adam until Moses were affected by Adam's rebellion! They did not violate a specific command from God, but Rom_1:18-32, which is surely part of this theological context, expresses the truth that they did violate the light that they had from creation and are thereby responsible to God for rebellion/sin. Adam's sinful propensity spread to all of his children.
NASB, NKJV,
NRSV "who is a type of Him who was to come"
TEV "Adam was a figure of the one who was to come"
NJB "Adam prefigured the One to come"

This expresses in a very concrete way the Adam-Christ typology (cf. 1Co_15:21-22; 1Co_15:45-49; Php_2:6-8). Both of them are seen as the first in a series, the origin of a race (cf. 1Co_15:45-49). Adam is the only person from the OT specifically called a "type" by the NT (for "Israel" see 1Co_10:6).
Utley.

J.
 
A very simplified view on how I believe Rom. 5.


SIN ENTERED HUMANITY THRU ADAM



1) "Wherefore as by one man " (dia touto hosper di’ henos anthropon) "Therefore just as through one man;" Adam the head of the human race, through which channel sin began to flow in the blood stream of humanity, Gen_2:17; Gen_3:3.

2) "Sin entered into the world," (he hamartia eis ton kosmon eiselthen) "The sin entered into the world, created universe;" When Adam by premeditation and intent aforethought disobeyed God, sin entered into the man-world or world of Man; Rom_5:19. This one man's sin made the many (masses) sinners.

3) "And death by sin," (kai dia tes hamartias ho thanatos) "And death (entered) through the sin," of one man. There could be no infant mortality; no infant would die if there were no sin in his being, Rom_5:17-19; 1Co_15:21-22; Rom_6:23. Death is the wages of sin.

4) "And so death passed upon all men," (kai houtos eis pantos anthropous ho thanatos dielthen) "So also the universal death principle passed into all men;" After Adam's sin every child conceived, begotten, or born into the human race inherited the germ of physical and spiritual death from conception, Psa_51:5; Psa_58:3; Jas_1:15; Rom_3:23.

5) "For that all have sinned," (eph’ ho pantes hemarton) "Inasmuch as all sinned;" all in human history had sinned, 1Ki_8:46; Ecc_7:20; All not only have sinned but all are also sinners by nature, with the contagious, incurable, sin-germ of death in the body, bringing on judicially appointed death, Jas_1:15; Heb_9:27.

--and Utley--


Rom_5:12 "Therefore" Romans has several strategically placed "therefores" (cf. Rom_5:1; Rom_8:1; Rom_12:1). The interpretive question is to what they relate. They could be a way of referring to Paul's whole argument. For sure this one relates to Genesis and, therefore, probably back to Rom_1:18-32.

"as through one man sin entered into the world" All three verbs in Rom_5:12 are aorist tense. Adam's fall brought death (cf. 1Co_15:22). The Bible does not dwell on the origin of sin. Sin also occurred in the angelic realm (cf. Genesis 3 and Rev_12:7-9). How and when are uncertain (cf. Isa_14:12-27; Eze_28:12-19; Job_4:18; Mat_25:41; Luk_10:18; Joh_12:31; Rev_12:7-9).
Adam's sin involved two aspects (1) disobedience to a specific commandment (cf. Gen_2:16-17), and (2) self-oriented pride (cf. Gen_3:5-6). This continues the allusion to Genesis 3 begun in Rom_1:18-32.

It is the theology of sin that so clearly separates Paul from rabbinical thought. The rabbis did not focus on Genesis 3; they asserted instead, that there were two "intents" (yetzers) in every person. Their famous rabbinical saying "In every man's heart is a black and a white dog. The one you feed the most becomes the biggest." Paul saw sin as a major barrier between holy God and His creation. Paul was not a systematic theologian (cf. James Steward's A Man in Christ). He gave several origins of sin (1) Adam's fall, (2) satanic temptation, and (3) continuing human rebellion (i.e., Eph_2:2-3).
In the theological contrasts and parallels between Adam and Jesus two possible implications are present.
1. Adam was a real historical person.
2. Jesus was a real human being.

Both of these truths affirm the Bible in the face of false teaching. Notice the repeated use of "one man" or "the one." These two ways of referring to Adam and Jesus are used eleven times in this context.

"one man" This generic phrase (lit. henos anthrôpou) is used to represent Adam (Rom_5:12; Rom_5:16-19) or Jesus (Rom_5:15 [twice], 17 [twice], 18,19). They each represent a group or community (i.e., "many," cf. Rom_5:15 [twice], 19[twice]; "all," cf. Rom_5:12-13; Rom_5:18 [twice]).

"death through sin" Augustine first coined the term "original sin." It describes the consequences of Adam/Eve's choices in Genesis 3. Their rebellion has affected all of creation. Humans are impacted by
1. a fallen world system
2. a personal tempter
3. a fallen nature

Original sin (Rom_5:12-14; Rom_5:16 a,17) forms a partnership with personal sin (Rom_5:12 d,16b) to make all humans sinful! Sin results in "death" (cf. Rom_1:32; Rom_6:13; Rom_6:16; Rom_6:21; Rom_6:23; Rom_7:5; Rom_7:9-11; Rom_7:13; Rom_7:24; Rom_8:13).
The Jerome Biblical Commentary (p. 308) mentions the rabbinical tradition that there were three periods of history.
1. Adam - Moses
2. Moses - Messiah
3. Messiah - eschaton

If Paul was thinking of these divisions then
1. Adam - Moses (original sin, no law but death)
2. Moses - Messiah (personal sin, violation of law)
3. Messiah - (freedom from the Law/law through grace)

"death spread to all men" The major thrust of this paragraph is the universality of the consequences of sin (cf. Rom_5:16-19; 1Co_15:22; Gal_1:10), which is death.
1. spiritual death - Gen_2:17; Gen_3:1-24; Isa_59:2; Rom_7:10-11; Eph_2:1; Col_2:13; Jas_1:15
2. physical death - Gen_3:4-5; Gen_5:1-32
3. eternal death - Rev_2:11; Rev_20:6; Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8

"because all sinned" All humans sin in Adam corporately (i.e., inherited a sinful state and a sinful propensity.) Because of this each person chooses to sin personally and repeatedly. The Bible is emphatic that all humans are sinners both corporately and individually (cf. 1Ki_8:46; 2Ch_6:36; Psa_14:1-2; Psa_130:3; Psa_143:2; Pro_20:9; Ecc_7:20; Isa_9:17; Isa_53:6; Rom_3:9-18; Rom_3:23; Rom_5:18; Rom_11:32; Gal_3:22; 1Jn_1:8-10).

Yet it must be said that the contextual emphasis (cf. Rom_5:15-19) is that one act caused death (Adam) and one act causes life (Jesus). However, God has so structured His relationship to humanity that human volition is a significant aspect of "lostness" and "justification." Humans are volitionally involved in their future destinies! They continue to choose sin or they choose Christ. They cannot affect these two choices, but they do volitionally show to which they belong!

The translation "because" is common, but its meaning is often disputed. Paul used eph' hô in 2Co_5:4; Php_3:12; and Php_4:10 in the sense of "because." Thus each and every human chooses to personally participate in sin and rebellion against God. Some by rejecting special revelation, but all by rejecting natural revelation (cf. Rom_1:18 to Rom_3:20).
Rom_5:13-14 This same truth is taught in Rom_3:20; Rom_4:15 and Act_17:30. God is fair. Humans are only responsible for what is available to them. This verse is speaking exclusively of special revelation (OT, Jesus, NT), not natural revelation (Psa_19:1-6; Rom_1:18-23; Rom_2:11-16).
Notice that the NKJV sees the comparison of Rom_5:12 as separated by a long parenthesis (cf. Rom_5:13-17) from its conclusion in Rom_5:18-21.
Rom_5:14
NASB, NKJV,
NJB "death reigned"
NRSV "death exercised dominion"
TEV "death ruled"

Death reigned as a King (cf. Rom_5:17; Rom_5:21). This personification of death and sin as tyrants is sustained throughout this chapter and Romans 6. The universal experience of death confirms the universal sin of mankind. In Rom_5:17; Rom_5:21, grace is personified. Grace reigns! Humans have a choice (the two ways of the OT, i.e., death or life, cf. Deu_11:26; Deu_30:1; Deu_30:19), death or life. Who reigns in your life?

"even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offence of Adam" Adam violated a stated command of God (i.e., Gen_2:15-17), even Eve did not sin in this same way. She heard from Adam about the tree, not from God directly. Humans from Adam until Moses were affected by Adam's rebellion! They did not violate a specific command from God, but Rom_1:18-32, which is surely part of this theological context, expresses the truth that they did violate the light that they had from creation and are thereby responsible to God for rebellion/sin. Adam's sinful propensity spread to all of his children.
NASB, NKJV,
NRSV "who is a type of Him who was to come"
TEV "Adam was a figure of the one who was to come"
NJB "Adam prefigured the One to come"

This expresses in a very concrete way the Adam-Christ typology (cf. 1Co_15:21-22; 1Co_15:45-49; Php_2:6-8). Both of them are seen as the first in a series, the origin of a race (cf. 1Co_15:45-49). Adam is the only person from the OT specifically called a "type" by the NT (for "Israel" see 1Co_10:6).
Utley.

J.
I reject most of the conclusions drawn there, since first of all, it ignores the truth that physical death is an intrinsic feature of the creation, not a result of Adam's sin, and second it argues that God has imputed the sin of Adam to the whole of mankind, a thoroughly unjust accusation against God. I reject both as unbiblical.
 
See-I knew you could answer a question-short, sweet, simple @Kermos. My "freewill" is swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ Jesus.

How and in what manner do you obey the Imperatives of Christ and of the Spirit?

J.

Were you prophesying, Johann? Seriously, though, look at what can happen with a short answer. And, after the quote from civic, we shall see how God controls me to obey the Imperatives of Christ and of the Spirit such as "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20).

that the law

faith is never a work in scripture

next fallacy.

@civic, you wrote "that the law" in order for you to free-will disregard "to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Romans 4:4).

Let's go back to the law, the Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.

Moses declared "Your God YHWH raises up for you a Prophet like me out of your midst, out of your brothers-you must listen to Him" (Deuteronomy 18:15).

@civic, in this short, sweet, simple yet sophisticated declaration, Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the Promised One is included in the law.

Out of Messiah's mouth comes the command "believe in God, believe also in Me" (John 14:1), and we who are joyfully His hear and obey by the very Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

The Prophet declares, about this believe recorded in John 14:1 of which is law, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

I believe my King Jesus of the Kingdom of God "this is My Blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:28).

So, civic, we are right back to scripture for you to hold:
"to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt"​

You wrote "Man chooses to believe ... the gospel" (proof post #1,765) of which your description results in faith being a work of man, and in post #7,910 you are recorded as writing "faith is mans responsibility" in which you assign the work of faith to yourself.

You are him who is working (Romans 4:4) according to your own free-will testimony.

Therefore, Holy Spirit inspired Paul indicates your free-will claimed forgiveness of sin results in the faulty concept of a debt by God to you instead of God's Grace.

@civic, this post extends post #7,961.
 
I reject most of the conclusions drawn there, since first of all, it ignores the truth that physical death is an intrinsic feature of the creation, not a result of Adam's sin, and second it argues that God has imputed the sin of Adam to the whole of mankind, a thoroughly unjust accusation against God. I reject both as unbiblical.
Agreed about the imputation of sin.
But how do you believe that Adam and Eve were not made to live forever?
Immortality was one of the gifts they lost.
What was the tree of life in the Garden?
They could eat of ANY tree but the forbidden one.
They were banished from the Garden lest they eat from the tree of life.
So, they were eating from it before, were banished, and physical death came.
 
Agreed about the imputation of sin.
But how do you believe that Adam and Eve were not made to live forever?
Immortality was one of the gifts they lost.
What was the tree of life in the Garden?
They could eat of ANY tree but the forbidden one.
They were banished from the Garden lest they eat from the tree of life.
So, they were eating from it before, were banished, and physical death came.
We are now biologically limited in how long we can live. Once the human body matures, it begins a biological process of deterioration culminating in a natural death under normal conditions. Are you suggesting that the sin of Adam altered that biology? If so, how did that happen? What was it about his sin that caused such an all-encompassing biological change from the original creation?
 
We are now biologically limited in how long we can live. Once the human body matures, it begins a biological process of deterioration culminating in a natural death under normal conditions. Are you suggesting that the sin of Adam altered that biology? If so, how did that happen? What was it about his sin that caused such an all-encompassing biological change from the original creation?
So, based on your interpretation and understanding of the scripture, would it be correct to say that you believe we were born sinless, Jim?

Nothing whatsoever to do with Adam and Eve yet there is a Yetzer HaTov and a Yetzer HaRa in pantas since the fall of Adam.

And we can scrap this from our Bibles--What does it mean-"We were constituted sinners?


Rom 5:12 Because of Διὰ this, τοῦτο just as ὥσπερ - ἡ sin ἁμαρτία entered εἰσῆλθεν, into εἰς the τὸν world κόσμον through δι’ one ἑνὸς man, ἀνθρώπου and καὶ - ὁ death θάνατος, through διὰ - τῆς sin, ἁμαρτίας so οὕτως also καὶ - ὁ death θάνατος passed διῆλθεν, to εἰς all πάντας men, ἀνθρώπους because ἐφ’ . . . ᾧ all πάντες sinned. ἥμαρτον·

Rom 5:12 because-of01 N1 This02 even-as03 through04 One05 Human06 The07 sin08 Into09 The10 world11 entered12 And13 through14 The15 sin16 The17 Death18 And19 Thus20 Into21 All22 Humans23 The24 Death25 passed-through26 On27 Which28 All29 sinned30

Rom 5:12 On account of this as if through one man the sin [into the world entered], and through the sin -- death; and thus to all men death went through, because by which reason all sinned.

Rom 5:12 Death in Adam, Life in Christ
Because of N1 this, just as through one man - sin into the world entered, and through - sin, - death; also thus to all men - death passed, for that all sinned.

Rom 5:12 Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.

Rom 5:12 12 This, then, is what happened. Sin made its entry into the world through one man, and through sin, death. The entail of sin and death passed on to the whole human race, and no one could break it for no one was himself free from sin.

Let's get the context and snip this out, since Clarke and Barnes is not helpful here--


Rom 5:12 Even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.
Rom 5:13 For sin was in the world until the Torah, but sin is not charged where there is no instruction;
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression of the Torah by Adam, who was a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not also like the offence. For if by the offence of the one the many died how much more the grace and gift of YAHWEH, because of one Man, Yahshua Messiah, be increased for many.
Rom 5:16 And the effect of the gift of YAHWEH was greater than the effect of the offence of Adam; For while the judgment of one man's offence resulted in the condemnation of many, but the free gift of YAHWEH in the forgiveness of sins resulted in justification to many more.
Rom 5:17 For if by the offence of the one death reigned through the one, much more those who are receiving the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall rule in life by the One, Yahshua Messiah.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as on account of the offence of one, condemnation was to all men; so on account of the righteousness of one, will the victory unto life be to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as on account of the disobedience of one man, many became sinners; so also on account of the obedience of one, many become righteous.
Rom 5:20 And the introduction of the Torah caused sin to increase. And where sin had increased, grace much more abounded,
Rom 5:21 Just as sin had reigned through death, so also grace shall reign through righteousness to everlasting life, through Yahshua Messiah our Master.

Rom 5:12 12 This, then, is what happened. Sin made its entry into the world through one man, and through sin, death. The entail of sin and death passed on to the whole human race, and no one could break it for no one was himself free from sin.
Phillips.


The sin personified and the death personified, we can look past this. And this--

For that all have sinned.—.Rather, for that, or because, all sinned—i.e., not by their own individual act, but implicitly in Adam’s transgression. They were summed up, and included in him as the head and representative of the race.

Houston, we have a problem! I need a Savior!

J.
 
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Were you prophesying, Johann? Seriously, though, look at what can happen with a short answer. And, after the quote from civic, we shall see how God controls me to obey the Imperatives of Christ and of the Spirit such as "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20).
So there's a quickening of the spirit by the Holy Spirit-regeneration preceded faith, correct?

J.
 
We are now biologically limited in how long we can live. Once the human body matures, it begins a biological process of deterioration culminating in a natural death under normal conditions. Are you suggesting that the sin of Adam altered that biology? If so, how did that happen? What was it about his sin that caused such an all-encompassing biological change from the original creation?
No need for her to answer @Jim.


"Whoever destroys a single life is considered by Scripture as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever saves a single life is considered as if he had saved an entire world."
Jewish saying, in case you are wondering.


According to your belief the umbilical cord was cut out from Adam and Eve. Wholly opposed to what stands written. We are sinless!

Genesis 25:23 – Jacob and Esau (nations in the womb)
"Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided..."
Though this refers to Rebekah's womb rather than a man's loins, it illustrates how entire nations are viewed as latent within individuals—in this case, within Jacob and Esau, the patriarchs of Israel and Edom respectively.

2. Genesis 46:26 – Descendants of Jacob from his loins
"All the persons belonging to Jacob who came into Egypt, who came from his body [יֹצְאֵי יְרֵכוֹ, yotzei yereikho]..."
The phrase literally means “those who came from his loins,” emphasizing bodily descent from Jacob. This concept is used to tie future generations directly to a progenitor.

3. Exodus 1:5
"All the descendants of Jacob were seventy persons; Joseph was already in Egypt."
While not using the same idiom, the statement implicitly echoes the same idea: Jacob as the progenitor of a people, with his sons as the seed of the nation.

4. Hebrews 7:9–10 – Levi in the loins of Abraham
"One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him."
This is the clearest and most theologically developed use of the concept. It establishes a federal or corporate identity: Levi, though not yet born, is reckoned as acting in Abraham because he was “in his loins” (en tēi osphy autou in Greek).

This has profound significance in Jewish and Christian traditions for discussing original sin, federal headship, and priestly inheritance.

5. 2 Samuel 7:12 – David’s offspring from his loins
"When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body [יֵצֵא מִמֵּעֶיךָ, yetze mime’ekha], and I will establish his kingdom."

Although the Hebrew does not use “loins” directly here, the same image of generational continuity from the body is clearly present. This passage undergirds messianic lineage coming from David.

6. 1 Kings 8:19 / 2 Chronicles 6:9 – David’s seed

"...your son who shall come from your loins [מֵחֲלָצֶיךָ, mechalatzekha]..."
The Hebrew word chalatzayim (loins) is used here, again stressing Davidic succession emerging directly from the progenitor’s body.

7. Isaiah 48:1 – Swearing by the God of Israel from the loins of Judah
"...who came forth from the loins of Judah..."
Another use of the phrase that identifies tribal or national identity through ancestral lineage, specifically emphasizing Judah’s progeny.

Summary Table:
Passage Phrase Used Person Concept
Genesis 46:26 yotzei yereikho Jacob Bodily descendants from the loins
Hebrews 7:9–10 in the loins of Abraham Abraham Levi represented corporately in Abraham
1 Kings 8:19 mechalatzekha David Davidic seed from the loins
2 Samuel 7:12 yetze mime’ekha David Messiah from David’s body
Isaiah 48:1 from the loins of Judah Judah Tribal lineage
Genesis 25:23 — Jacob & Esau Nations in the womb (female equivalent)

J.
 
We are now biologically limited in how long we can live. Once the human body matures, it begins a biological process of deterioration culminating in a natural death under normal conditions. Are you suggesting that the sin of Adam altered that biology? If so, how did that happen? What was it about his sin that caused such an all-encompassing biological change from the original creation?
No.
What I'm saying is that the sin of Adam INITIATED the biology you speak of.
What was it about Adam's sin that caused such a grave response?

Adam's sin affected EVERYTHING:
Man's relationship to God
His relationship to man
His relationship to nature
and his relationship to himself.

Have not all of the above suffered from the sin nature?

Is our relationship to God the same as it was between Him and Adam prior to the fall?
No. It has been damaged.

Is our relationship with other persons the same?
No. Even Adam's relationship with Eve became difficult due to the curses of God on both of them.

Adam was the keeper of the Garden. He named the plants and animals.
Has our relationship with nature changed since the fall?
Yes. We experience droughts, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.

And our relationship with our very selves.
We worry, we get sick, we lack peace, some are mentally disabled, etc.

The fall of Adam affected everything.
 
No.
What I'm saying is that the sin of Adam INITIATED the biology you speak of.
What was it about Adam's sin that caused such a grave response?

Adam's sin affected EVERYTHING:
Man's relationship to God
His relationship to man
His relationship to nature
and his relationship to himself.

Have not all of the above suffered from the sin nature?

Is our relationship to God the same as it was between Him and Adam prior to the fall?
No. It has been damaged.

Is our relationship with other persons the same?
No. Even Adam's relationship with Eve became difficult due to the curses of God on both of them.

Adam was the keeper of the Garden. He named the plants and animals.
Has our relationship with nature changed since the fall?
Yes. We experience droughts, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.

And our relationship with our very selves.
We worry, we get sick, we lack peace, some are mentally disabled, etc.

The fall of Adam affected everything.
Not according to Jim and a host of others here.

J.
 
Not according to Jim and a host of others here.

J.
Some teachings are very clear in scripture and really cannot be debated.
I really don't know what @Jim believes, but I guess I'll soon find out.

You guys are a bit too scholarly for me, as I've told you before, but I believe I know what the bible teaches.
It doesn't seem to be mysterious to me. I think we just need to read what the verses say and not add anything to them.
Can it be that easy?
LOL
:)
 
Some teachings are very clear in scripture and really cannot be debated.
I really don't know what @Jim believes, but I guess I'll soon find out.

You guys are a bit too scholarly for me, as I've told you before, but I believe I know what the bible teaches.
It doesn't seem to be mysterious to me. I think we just need to read what the verses say and not add anything to them.
Can it be that easy?
LOL
:)
Many scholars still debate ONE verse because of ONE word IN that verse-

Rom 5:12 Death Came through Adam but Life Comes through Christ
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

Not to put you to the test-dokimazo-did these sin IN Adam or OUT of Adam?:)

God bless sorella.

J.
 
I just believe that Romans 8:3 emphasizes the weakness of the law due to our flesh; but through faith in Christ, we can repent of our sins and receive eternal life. The price Jesus paid on the cross forgives all charges against us, and Abraham's righteousness came through his faith in God, making him worthy of eternal life.

Romans 8:3-4 (NKJV) 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God [did] by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 
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