An Article on free will

I believe that but I would say it differently.

Man is a soul; he has a body and a spirit.
Animal is a soul, he has a body.
Then let's clarify further:
MAN IS A BODY AND SOUL....
IF he is born again, he will also have a spirit.

ANIMAL IS A BODY AND SOUL....
because each animal has his own personality traits and this refers to the soul.
An animal cannot have a spirit part because he's not aware of God.

The SPIRIT of a person will affect the SOUL of that person....his beliefs, actions, etc.

I've always read in this order:
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT

Why do you believe it's important to put SOUL before BODY??
 
I have this work on electronic copy and can find no such reference. I did a search on the phrases "Paul views all people as condemned," and "but because they participate in it.” with no hits

I did find


18 Paul now summarizes his basic argument in this paragraph, finally stating the full comparison between Adam and Christ that he began in v. 12, parenthetically remarked on in vv. 13–14, and elaborated on in vv. 15–17. After the negative comparisons of vv. 15, 16a, and 16b, and the qualitative contrasts (“how much more”) in vv. 15b and 17, Paul returns to the simple comparative structure of v. 12. This comparative structure is the basic building block of vv. 18–21, Paul using it three times to state the parallel between Adam and Christ: “as … so” (v. 18); “just as … so” (v. 19); “just as … so” (v. 21). Verse 20, like vv. 13–14, breaks into the sequence with a comment about the role of the Mosaic law in the general salvation-historical scheme of Adam and Christ.
Paul again expresses himself in v. 18 elliptically, leaving important elements to be supplied by the reader. Probably we should translate something like “as condemnation came to all people through the trespass of one man, so also did the righteousness that leads to life126 come to all people through the righteous act of one man.”128 Paul again asserts that Adam’s trespass has been instrumental in leading to the “condemnation” of all people. In keeping with the alternatives we explored for the interpretation of v. 12d, some take this instrumental connection to be mediate—Adam’s “trespass”-human sinning-“condemnation” of all—and others immediate—Adam’s “trespass”-“condemnation” of all. While the text does not rule out the former, we think the latter, in light of the parallel with Christ and the lack of explicit mention of an intermediate stage, to be more likely (cf. the discussion on 5:12d).
In the last paragraph we have spoken of “justification leading to life” as applicable to believers. But does not Paul’s explicit statement that this justification leading to life is “for all people” call into question the propriety of so confining justification only to some people? Indeed, this verse simply makes explicit what seems to be the logic of the paragraph as a whole, as Paul has repeatedly used the same terminology of those who are affected by Christ’s act as he has of those who are affected by Adam’s. And if, as is clear, Adam’s act has brought condemnation to all, without exception, must we not conclude that Christ’s act has brought justification and life for all? A growing number of scholars argue that this is exactly what Paul intends to say here. Recently, for instance, A. Hultgren has urged that the universal statements in this passage must be taken seriously, as descriptive of a “justification of humanity” that will be revealed at the judgment. Some people are justified by faith in this life, but those who do not accept the offer of God in this life are nevertheless assured of being justified at the judgment.
Such universalistic thinking is, naturally, very appealing—who likes the idea that many people will be consigned to the eternal punishment of hell? But if, as seems clear, many texts plainly teach the reality of such punishment for those who do not embrace Christ by faith in this life (cf., e.g., 2 Thess. 1:8–9; Rom. 2:12; and the argument of 1:18–3:20), those who advocate such a viewpoint are guilty of picking and choosing their evidence. But can we reconcile the plain universalistic statements of this verse with these other texts that speak of the reality of hell? Some deny that we can, suggesting that we face a paradox on this point that God will resolve someday. Others argue that what is universal in v. 18b is not the actual justification accomplished in the lives of individuals, but the basis for this justification in the work of Christ. Christ has won for all “the sentence of justification” and this is now offered freely to all who will “receive the gift.” Nevertheless, whatever one’s view on “limited atonement” might be (and the view just outlined is obviously incompatible with this doctrine), it is questionable whether Paul’s language can be taken in this way. For one thing, Paul always uses “justification” language of the status actually conferred on the individual, never of the atonement won on the cross itself (cf. particularly the careful distinctions in Rom. 3:21–26). Second, it is doubtful whether Paul is describing simply an “offer” made to people through the work of Christ; certainly in the parallel in the first part of the verse, the condemnation actually embraces all people. But perhaps the biggest objection to this view is that it misses the point for which Paul is arguing in this passage. This point is that there can be an assurance of justification and life, on one side, that is just as strong and certain as the assurance of condemnation on the other. Paul wants to show, not how Christ has made available righteousness and life for all, but how Christ has secured the benefits of that righteousness for all who belong to him.
In this last phrase, we touch on what is the most likely explanation of Paul’s language in this verse. Throughout the passage, Paul’s concern to maintain parallelism between Adam and Christ has led him to choose terms that will clearly express this. In vv. 15 and 19, he uses “the many”; here he uses “all people.” But in each case, Paul’s point is not so much that the groups affected by Christ and Adam, respectively, are coextensive, but that Christ affects those who are his just as certainly as Adam does those who are his. When we ask who belongs to, or is “in,” Adam and Christ, respectively, Paul makes his answer clear: every person, without exception, is “in Adam” (cf. vv. 12d–14); but only those who “receive the gift” (v. 17; “those who believe,” according to Rom. 1:16–5:11) are “in Christ.” That “all” does not always mean “every single human being” is clear from many passages, it often being clearly limited in context (cf., e.g., Rom. 8:32; 12:17, 18; 14:2; 16:19), so this suggestion has no linguistic barrier. In the present verse, the scope of “all people” in the two parts of the verse is distinguished in the context, Paul making it clear, both by his silence and by the logic of vv. 12–14, that there is no limitation whatsoever on the number of those who are involved in Adam’s sin, while the deliberately worded v. 17, along with the persistent stress on faith as the means of achieving righteousness in 1:16–4:25, makes it equally clear that only certain people derive the benefits from Christ’s act of righteousness.


Douglas J. Moo, The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary on the New Testament; Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1996), 340–344.

Where Moo acknowledges

12d, some take this instrumental connection to be mediate—Adam’s “trespass”-human sinning-“condemnation” of all—and others immediate—Adam’s “trespass”-“condemnation” of all. While the text does not rule out the former, we think the latter, in light of the parallel with Christ and the lack of explicit mention of an intermediate stage, to be more likely (cf. the discussion on 5:12d).

Mediate imputation being

The doctrine of mediate imputation states that the sin of Adam is not imputed directly to his posterity; instead, Adam’s corrupt and sinful nature is imputed directly, and Adam’s sin is imputed as a consequence of the imputation of Adam’s corrupt nature12

BTW I did find this

First, we could be content to posit an unresolved “tension” between the individual and the corporate emphasis. Paul in v. 12 asserts that all people die because they sin on their own account; and in vv. 18–19 he claims that they die because of Adam’s sin. Paul does not resolve these two perspectives; and we do wrong to try to force a resolution that Paul himself never made. A systematic theologian may have to find a resolution; but we exegetes need not insist that Paul in this text assumes or teaches one. Now it is certainly the case that we can err by insisting that a text give us answers to all our questions about a topic or (still worse) by foisting on a biblical author theological categories that do not fit that author’s teaching. But we can also fail to do our job as exegetes by failing to pursue reasonable harmonizations that the author may assume or intend. So we think it is legitimate to ask whether Paul suggests any resolution of the tension between individual and Adamic responsibility for sin in this text.

Douglas J. Moo, The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary on the New Testament; Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1996), 324–325.
Tom,,,I'm really sorry, but I just can't absorb all of the above.

Are you saying that we are guilty of Adam's sin or that we are AFFECTED by it?

This sentence in your post is confusing me:

Mediate imputation being

The doctrine of mediate imputation states that the sin of Adam is not imputed directly to his posterity; instead, Adam’s corrupt and sinful nature is imputed directly, and Adam’s sin is imputed as a consequence of the imputation of Adam’s corrupt nature12
 
ROMANS 5:12–21 – THE GREEK TEXT AND CONTEXTUAL ARGUMENTS
Romans 5:12:
διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ διʼ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν, καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν, ἐφʼ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον

The phrase ἐφʼ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον ("because all sinned") is key. The referent of ἐφʼ ᾧ has long been debated. Scholars such as A.T. Robertson (Grammar, pp. 589–590) and B.F. Westcott argue it means "on the basis of which" or "in whom"—meaning in Adam.

Robertson states: "Here ἐφ’ ᾧ is best taken as a causal conjunction meaning 'because,' though it could mean 'in whom.'"
Excursion

To be noted

Here ᾧ is of neuter grammar not masculine
 
Tom,,,I'm really sorry, but I just can't absorb all of the above.

Are you saying that we are guilty of Adam's sin or that we are AFFECTED by it?

This sentence in your post is confusing me:

Mediate imputation being

The doctrine of mediate imputation states that the sin of Adam is not imputed directly to his posterity; instead, Adam’s corrupt and sinful nature is imputed directly, and Adam’s sin is imputed as a consequence of the imputation of Adam’s corrupt nature12
According to the article, it is affected. From Adam we inherited a depravity which results in our sinning rather than the idea we inherit Adam's guilt.
 
You should write a book J.
You do realize that you've begun your very own religion.

But you made a statement in your first sentence:
If a person steals they are a thief.

So,

Does a person steal because he is a thief,
or is he a thief because he steals?
I believe what Scripture says to answer your question:

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Samuel 24:13.

Another way to say it is, "sin comes from sinner."

Adam and the woman were sinners. That's why they sinned. They were created by God as sinful creatures because there is only ONE God, there is NO ONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Holiness, Sinlessness, etc.), to NO ONE.
God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself or in any created being (angel or man.)
A person steals because they are a thief, whether that theft is in their heart or by acting upon such desire to covet.
Eternalness is an Attribute and Nature of God. Tell me, how would that truth be applied to "heaven" which mostly all believers think heaven (the place) is eternal. Is that true? Is heaven (the place) eternal?
Was Adam and the woman created eternal? Did God give, share, reduplicate His Nature and Attribute of Eternalness in man? The answer is no. Do you know why?
Because Isaiah says, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He (God) gives His glory (Holiness, Righteousness, Sinlessness, Eternalness, Omniscience, etc.), to NO ONE.
 
According to the article, it is affected. From Adam we inherited a depravity which results in our sinning rather than the idea we inherit Adam's guilt.
Thanks. This is what I would have to agree with.
Romans 5:12 muddies up the waters a bit, but it's a mistranslation from Jerome.
The bible clearly teaches that a person cannot be held guilty of another person's sin...
so it's the AFFECT of Adam's sin that is passed down to us.
As to the method...it would have to be by his DNA.
Even DNA is affected by the sin nature...as is all of creation.
Romans 8:20-21
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
 
I believe what Scripture says to answer your question:

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Samuel 24:13.

Another way to say it is, "sin comes from sinner."

Adam and the woman were sinners. That's why they sinned. They were created by God as sinful creatures because there is only ONE God, there is NO ONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Holiness, Sinlessness, etc.), to NO ONE.

So when God said that His creations was VERY GOOD....
He really meant that it was bad?

God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself or in any created being (angel or man.)
A person steals because they are a thief, whether that theft is in their heart or by acting upon such desire to covet.
Eternalness is an Attribute and Nature of God. Tell me, how would that truth be applied to "heaven" which mostly all believers think heaven (the place) is eternal. Is that true? Is heaven (the place) eternal?
Was Adam and the woman created eternal? Did God give, share, reduplicate His Nature and Attribute of Eternalness in man? The answer is no. Do you know why?
Because Isaiah says, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He (God) gives His glory (Holiness, Righteousness, Sinlessness, Eternalness, Omniscience, etc.), to NO ONE.
Wow. J.
You really need to find yourself a good bible-believing church and start studying Christianity.
 
So, are many are just imputed righteous apart from any response of their own?
It appears there may be some misunderstanding concerning Koine Greek syntax, grammar, and morphology, @TomL, especially regarding the aorist passive-middle.

There’s little value in merely quoting others without possessing firsthand exegetical understanding of the Scriptures ourselves—wouldn’t you agree?
1744457185034.png

While we can quote authorities like Robertson, Vincent, Utley, Adam Clarke, and others, simply repeating their conclusions doesn't necessarily demonstrate our own understanding of the function of these grammatical concepts, right? Otherwise, you wouldn’t be asking me this question.

No—Romans 5:19 does not teach that the many are imputed righteous apart from any response of their own. While the verb κατασταθήσονται ("will be made [righteous]") is forensic and passive, denoting a judicial status granted rather than earned, Paul is emphatically clear throughout Romans that this status is only applied to those who respond in faith.

Shalom.

J.
 
Excursion

To be noted

Here ᾧ is of neuter grammar not masculine
Excursus on the Syntax of ἐφ’ ᾧ in Romans 5:12:

The phrase ἐφ’ ᾧ is composed of the preposition ἐπί with the prepositional prefix contracted before the relative pronoun ᾧ, the dative singular of the relative pronoun ὅς. However, crucial to interpretation is the grammatical gender and case of ᾧ. Here, ᾧ is neuter dative singular, not masculine, and thus does not directly refer back to Ἀδάμ (which is masculine) or any other masculine antecedent.

This grammatical feature challenges the interpretation of ἐφ’ ᾧ as “in whom,” which would presuppose a masculine antecedent—typically Ἀδάμ. Since the relative pronoun does not match Ἀδάμ in gender, the interpretation “in whom all sinned” is grammatically strained.

Instead, the neuter ᾧ is more naturally understood to refer back to the preceding clause δι’ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν, or more abstractly to the entrance of sin and death into the world. Under this reading, ἐφ’ ᾧ is best construed as a causal conjunction meaning “because of which” or simply “because.” This is a classical use attested in Greek literature, especially in later Koine.

The causal use finds support in other Greek texts (cf. Sirach 14:2; Philo, Leg. All. 3.201), and Robertson notes its appropriateness given the grammatical constraints. Thus, the phrase may be rendered: “and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.” This reading preserves syntactic coherence and aligns with the Pauline argument that all humanity participates in sin not merely by union with Adam, but by their own sinfulness.

J.
 
I hold to scripture unlike you and do not twist it , isolate a verse to support a man made doctrine

Here's scripture for you to hold, civic:

"to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt"
(Romans 4:4)

In post #7,910 (the post to which you just replied), you are recorded as writing "faith is mans responsibility" in which you assign the work of faith to yourself.

You are him who is working (Romans 4:4) according to your own free-will testimony.

Therefore, Holy Spirit inspired Paul indicates your free-will claimed forgiveness of sin results in the faulty concept of a debt by God to you instead of God's Grace.
 
Here's scripture for you to hold, civic:
"to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt"​

In post #7,910 (the post to which you just replied), you are recorded as writing "faith is mans responsibility" in which you assign the work of faith to yourself.

You are him who is working (Romans 4:4) according to your own free-will testimony.

Therefore, Holy Spirit inspired Paul indicates your free-will claimed forgiveness of sin results in the faulty concept of a debt by God to you instead of God's Grace.
See-I knew you could answer a question-short, sweet, simple @Kermos. My "freewill" is swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ Jesus.

How and in what manner do you obey the Imperatives of Christ and of the Spirit?

J.
 
Here's scripture for you to hold, civic:
"to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt"​

In post #7,910 (the post to which you just replied), you are recorded as writing "faith is mans responsibility" in which you assign the work of faith to yourself.

You are him who is working (Romans 4:4) according to your own free-will testimony.

Therefore, Holy Spirit inspired Paul indicates your free-will claimed forgiveness of sin results in the faulty concept of a debt by God to you instead of God's Grace.
that the law

faith is never a work in scripture

next fallacy.
 
First, we could be content to posit an unresolved “tension” between the individual and the corporate emphasis. Paul in v. 12 asserts that all people die because they sin on their own account; and in vv. 18–19 he claims that they die because of Adam’s sin. Paul does not resolve these two perspectives; and we do wrong to try to force a resolution that Paul himself never made. A systematic theologian may have to find a resolution; but we exegetes need not insist that Paul in this text assumes or teaches one. Now it is certainly the case that we can err by insisting that a text give us answers to all our questions about a topic or (still worse) by foisting on a biblical author theological categories that do not fit that author’s teaching. But we can also fail to do our job as exegetes by failing to pursue reasonable harmonizations that the author may assume or intend. So we think it is legitimate to ask whether Paul suggests any resolution of the tension between individual and Adamic responsibility for sin in this text.

I went through much trouble to find this for you @TomL.

J.
 
Give me a moment to wake up—I haven’t had my coffee yet.

J.
Which one do you hold @Jim?

Traditional Augustinian and Reformed View (Inherited Guilt through Imputation)

Seminal or Realist View (Inherited Guilt by Participation)

Pelagian View (No Inherited Guilt, Only Bad Example)

Eastern Orthodox View (Ancestral Sin, Not Guilt)

Moderate Evangelical View (Inclination to Sin, but No Immediate Guilt)

J.
 
Which one do you hold @Jim?

Traditional Augustinian and Reformed View (Inherited Guilt through Imputation)

Seminal or Realist View (Inherited Guilt by Participation)

Pelagian View (No Inherited Guilt, Only Bad Example)

Eastern Orthodox View (Ancestral Sin, Not Guilt)

Moderate Evangelical View (Inclination to Sin, but No Immediate Guilt)

J.
Guilt is not inherited. Whether or not that is a Pelagian view not an issue with me. It is not apparent what difference you see between what you listed as the Pelagian view and the Moderate Evangelical view. I don't know if I would say that there is an inclination to sin. What I would offer is that man was created with free will and when presented with God's law he always is presented with some that he chooses to disobey. I am not sure that I would equate that with an "inclination to sin", although it seems pretty close to that.
 
You totally ignored this showing the connection between impart and infuse

View attachment 1701

Now let's look at the definition of infuse

To cause a person to become filled with a certain quality or principle

That matches your interpretation of Eph 2:8.

Where God causes man to be filled with faith.

Your theology teaches an infused faith.

God has me corresponding about God's control over we who are forgiven of sin. You can hide behind your argument, there, if you free-will want.

The Holy Spirit reveals to me that the love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14), so my faith is the work of God because the Word of God tells me “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

According to your Free-willian Philosophy, you are free to deny the above blessings by saying they are not directed to you.

Importantly, the Lord says "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

Lord and God Jesus Christ declares His Sovereignty as shown in His sayings above, and He amplifies the treasure of the Word of God with "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
 
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