Copied and paste is about all a person like you is good for ~ as time permits, I may take your copied and paste words from most likely EOC heretics little sister of RCC. I have little time to waste on folks who truly have no love for only the scriptures, but have a strong desire to include history, church father heretics, etc., ~ since I'm engaged in a debate @Jeremeiah 1 Five, which I think is more important than wasting time with someone like you who just wants to push his personal agenda/bias ~ not the very word of God, which is obvious after reading a few more posts of yours, especially this one
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
@Johann
We must not apologize for the truth, or God will hold truth from us. Stand strong for what you believe is the truth, and God will give more truth. Infant baptism is false and serves no purpose but just adds corruption to the truth. It is an evil invention of false prophets.
The DANGER of infant baptism:
Baptizing infants/children not properly qualified for the ordinance is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.Baptism is important, for it is the first act of Christian obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:48).
Acts 8:37
“And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”Baptism requires repentance, which in turn requires consciousness of sins (Matthew 3:6; Mark 1:4). Baptism is the answer of a good conscience, so we must have a conscience, sufficient knowledge of the gospel to make it good, and the ability and willingness to act conscientiously (Ist Peter 3:21). John required fruits, or actions, to prove a true spirit of repentance before baptism (Matthew 3:7-9).
We must avoid and reject EOC/RCC influence that would value sacramentalism without knowledge.
Baptism is not needed for eternal life, so there is no obligation or need to baptize children early. It is the blasphemous presumption of baptismal regeneration that has spawned so many heresies.
Maybe more later...RB
@Johann was the one who brought up the topic of Church Fathers. So he can but I can't??? Why the double-standards?
Johann talked about History but I can't??? Again, why the double standards?
The Apostles bequeathed to us not only their Writings but also the Churches they planted. Why do you spit on what they themselves established??? Why are you so anti-Apostolic?
I did bring up Bible verses which once again you immediately ran away from. This is typical behavior of heretics.
And on top of all that, you despise that the Baptism of Jesus allows infants the Promise of the Holy Spirit.
So run away from the Bible, the Apostles, and History with your lame anti-Bible, anti-Apostles, anti-History double-standards pitiful excuses.
I can just see you now, attempting to block Jesus from his Baptism with those exact words. John the Baptist attempted something very similar but Jesus overruled him. I would heed Jesus' words very carefully and not run away from them as heretics are so apt to do.
Of course, repentance is required of those who have sinned. What sin are infants guilty of? Being born?
civic
Well-known member
There obviously was nothing for Jesus to repent of so it does not apply to Him.
civic
Well-known member
This is pretty good from Got ?
Though today the word baptism generally evokes thoughts of identifying with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, baptism did not begin with Christians. For centuries before Christ, the Jews had used bathing in water as a ritual cleansing ceremony (see Leviticus 14:1–4, 8–9; 15:4, 6–11, 13, 16–22, 27; Numbers 19:7). John the Baptist took the ritual of baptism and applied it to those who saw their need for spiritual cleansing in preparation for the arrival of the Messiah. Many believed John’s message and were baptized by him (Matthew 3:5–6). The baptisms John performed had the specific purpose of readying hearts for the coming of the Lord.
In Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist mentions the purpose of his baptisms: “I baptize you with water for repentance.” Paul affirms this in Acts 19:4: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” John’s baptism had to do with repentance—it was a symbolic representation of changing one’s mind and going a new direction. “Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River” (Matthew 3:6). Being baptized by John demonstrated a recognition of one’s sin, a desire for spiritual cleansing, and a commitment to follow God’s law in anticipation of the Messiah’s arrival.
There were some, like the Pharisees, who came to the Jordan to observe John’s ministry but who had no desire to step into the water themselves. John rebuked them sternly: “When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: ‘You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance’” (Matthew 3:7–8). Even the religious leaders needed to repent of their sin, although they saw no need of it.
Christian baptism today also symbolizes repentance, cleansing, and commitment, but Jesus has given it a different emphasis. Christian baptism is a mark of one’s identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is representative of a cleansing that is complete and a commitment that is the natural response of one who has been made new. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross completely washes away our sins, and we are raised to new life empowered by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:17–21; Romans 6:1–11). With John’s baptism, a person repented of sin and was therefore ready to place his faith in Jesus Christ. John’s baptism foreshadowed what Jesus would accomplish, much as the Old Testament sacrificial system did.
John prepared the way for Christ by calling people to acknowledge their sin and their need for salvation. His baptism was a purification ceremony meant to ready the peoples’ hearts to receive their Savior.
Exactly. And that sets the precedence for all those who have not sinned. What sin are infants guilty of? Being born?
civic
Well-known member
ditto
MTMattie
Well-known member
In reply 6641 you, @Red Baker , made the comment " not the very word of God " indicating that if it was not found in the word of God....and for you that would only be the KJV... it is trash at best and heretical blaspheme at worst.
OKay Red. You have your bible. I am sure by now you have it memorized so you can pop out the actual God breathed scriptures that say that
the Jailer's family had no children or infants in it. Or Stephanus' family had no children or infants in it. or even Lydia's family had no infants in it.
You dont like non biblical references.... FINE.... then put up your bible and prove these three, at minimum had no children or infants in it.
You also said "Baptism is important, for it is the first act of Christian obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:48)."
Yet you have said, just yesterday, that the new birth can take place after conception. That would be in a womb. THEN IF the first act of Christian obedience is accurate... mom and dad having the infant presented to the Lord and having their baptism is not only proper but necessary... as they start their child into only the Christian growth. "Raise up a child"... we are told.
As we discussed John the Baptist was mentioned as such a person. And I pointed out so was Jeremiah. Were there others? We have not been told is so many words... so who are we to deny that which would be as you say "Christian obedience".
Repeating... Now you say the jailer, Stephanus and Lydia had no children or infants.
What about Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.
Another all inclusive mention as there would also have been children and infants.... even though not our typical Christian baptism, Paul though it important enough to include it....
But even more so then the above... Look at your bible.
Acts 2: 38-39 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
So I want to see where specifically it says no children or infants, and not mere an assumption because it is often said it happened after they believed, because not every household would have been barren or we would have been told to emphasize its being only for those old enough.
OKay Red. You have your bible. I am sure by now you have it memorized so you can pop out the actual God breathed scriptures that say that
the Jailer's family had no children or infants in it. Or Stephanus' family had no children or infants in it. or even Lydia's family had no infants in it.
You dont like non biblical references.... FINE.... then put up your bible and prove these three, at minimum had no children or infants in it.
You also said "Baptism is important, for it is the first act of Christian obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:48)."
Yet you have said, just yesterday, that the new birth can take place after conception. That would be in a womb. THEN IF the first act of Christian obedience is accurate... mom and dad having the infant presented to the Lord and having their baptism is not only proper but necessary... as they start their child into only the Christian growth. "Raise up a child"... we are told.
As we discussed John the Baptist was mentioned as such a person. And I pointed out so was Jeremiah. Were there others? We have not been told is so many words... so who are we to deny that which would be as you say "Christian obedience".
Repeating... Now you say the jailer, Stephanus and Lydia had no children or infants.
What about Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.
Another all inclusive mention as there would also have been children and infants.... even though not our typical Christian baptism, Paul though it important enough to include it....
1 Corinthians 10:2
And all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,But even more so then the above... Look at your bible.
Acts 2: 38-39 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
So I want to see where specifically it says no children or infants, and not mere an assumption because it is often said it happened after they believed, because not every household would have been barren or we would have been told to emphasize its being only for those old enough.
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RB would also have to answer for Acts 2:38-39 where Peter is not only addressing the Pentecostal crowd but also "all those who are far off". And not only that but also "as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself"!!! That's all future believers! Will all these families be void of infants???
Will RB still maintain that none of the married couples have infants in their families? That's the only way his heretical view can hold.
Acts 2:38-39
“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself ” (Acts 2:38,39).
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It's interesting that Calvinists view our salvation as monergistic when it's synergistic and they view baptism as synergistic when it's monergistic. They flipped Christianity on its head.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Not to interrupt your back and forth with @synergy I have a question not one person has given a reasonable answer to.I believe this is your source @synergy?
Orthodox Research Institute
The Orthodox Research Institute is a leading source for information, publications and resources related to the Orthodox Churchwww.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org
J.
Perhaps you can.
Why are Jewish baby boys still circumcised on the 8th day? Is it because of the covenant that God had with Abraham? The old covenant that
is still being followed even these days by some?
Four thousand plus years ago Abraham was instructed by God to circumcise males on the eight day for we read: “This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.” (Genesis 17:10-12).
Approximately 3,500 years ago God instructed Moses to carry out the same command: “And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.” (Leviticus 12:3).
civic
Well-known member
Interesting I had not tied those two together
Jesus' Baptism is monergistic, no requirements on his part other than to show up for that event.
MTMattie
Well-known member
So it is election... faith... then baptism. Is that it? Kind of blows it out of the water concerning John the Baptist.
We know of his calling, in his mother's womb. And we know he had faith because that was what he preached on and baptised others for.
But as far as I can see he was never baptized.
Still trying to decide on the order of when to be baptised. It is difficult to tell in the Ordo Salutis
Romans 8 KJV
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.
Romans 8:30 gives us this order of redemption: first God predestines (chooses someone for salvation in eternity past); then He calls (regenerates an elect person by the Spirit); next He justifies (imputes to a regenerate person the righteousness of Christ); and finally He glorifies (grants a justified person a resurrection body).
OKAY @Red Baker , where in the order of things do those people get baptized? A command to us and it is not mentioned.....
synergy, I would love to debate JUST YOU on this subject and keep all of your friends out of it~too many posting allows folks like you to escape from being pressure to address what is being said. .
First, you used the word salvation/save/saved in a very narrow sense, which shows me just how shallow your understanding is.
Secondly, if you beleive salvation from sin and condemnation is synergistic, then you are the man I would love to have one on one.
Thirdly, If you truly believe that water baptism is monergistic, then I know you are the man that I desire to debate ASAP~one on one.
You talk big, but what I have seen, tells me that you are just a blowhard, very confused that you cannot even understand that infants are not to be baptized, not even one example of this being done in the scriptures. As matter of truth, we do not even see where young folks are baptized in the scriptures, since baptism is a commitment to the faith/rellgion of Jesus Christ, which should not be done lightly by any. Young folks are too busy serving their lust ~ not saying we cannot baptized them, but it would be rare to see one truly desiring to follow Christ without any hesitation whatsoever. In the book of Acts, it was always men and women with no other exceptions, which proves just how serious the apostles took baptizing folks.
I'll start the thread today, come and let us debate these two positions.
I'll answer this later after a few things that I must get done..
Wise words, again, "We must not apologize for the truth", Red Baker.
And, I am blessed to read this post!
I observed the devil trying to diverge this thread from the thread's title and more specifically the Sovereignty of God, yet we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28), after all, here is this excellent post about baptism!
You're running away from our current debate and you now want to start another debate??? Is that how you handle debates, by running away? Here is where we last left off in our current debate. Let's complete this one and then I'll be more than happy to start another one:
and
Lord Jesus Christ lovingly says "no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him" (Matthew 11:27) which is similar to "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
Notice, the only Way (John 14:6) for one to know Jesus is by the cause of the will of the Way.
Notice, further, Jesus mentions not the free-will of man as a contributing factor, at all.
Notice even further that the Lord says “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25) as a prelude to Matthew 11:27 quoted above.
Lord Jesus Christ speaks of blessed revelation caused by God inside of us chosen by God to the glory of God!
Notice, the only Way (John 14:6) for one to know Jesus is by the cause of the will of the Way.
Notice, further, Jesus mentions not the free-will of man as a contributing factor, at all.
Notice even further that the Lord says “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25) as a prelude to Matthew 11:27 quoted above.
Lord Jesus Christ speaks of blessed revelation caused by God inside of us chosen by God to the glory of God!
