An Article on free will

[ProDeo]

Proverbs 20:11~"Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right."

We ourselves may think that this child is very different from the others, but, again, give them time to make that commitment as they learn more of they seriousness of it.

Put 2 toddlers in a room full of nice toys and close the door, look through the window and watch what happens. Both will explore the toys for quite some time but eventually one of the toddlers wants to have the toy the other has and you may see a lot of violence. Who told them that?

We (adults) knowing good from evil can only write on their blank and undeveloped conscience that violence is wrong.

 

[synergy]

@synergy

First, I was not talking to Johann concerning church fathers, or history, in this thread, so I did not need to address anything he had said. If I was speaking to Johann, then I would not refrain from posting to him~he at least will use scriptures, something you do very little of.

I have no clue what you are attempting to say, not sure you do.

synergy, I have addressed everything you have thus brought up...trust me, I have not seen one thing that you have brought up that is even worthy of a second consideration. I think you have trouble of just being honest, so did the Pharisees.

Again, take scriptures and speak to prove your doctrine. No where in the word of God is there for infants the promise of God's Spirit, NO where.

Run away? Not from you, not now, not ever. You saying that I'm anti-Bible, etc., means nothing, unless you can prove it. The Pharisees said that Christ did miracles through the power of the devils, you put yourself into the company of religious leaders of Jesus' day, casting about the same at him and his disciples. His followers today should not expect anything less from folks like you.

Matthew 10:25​

“It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?”

Never said that folks in Acts of the apostles did not have infants, without question they did. Burt, there is not a thread of evidence that any infants were ever baptized by John or the apostles, not one single evidence.

We have addressed Acts 2:38 more than once in the past couple of months, not going back over it again. I'll find the link if you desire to read it. Let us consider some scriptural guidelines given to us from the scriptures.

GUIDELINES for us to follow from the scriptures.​

There is no example at all in the Bible of any child of any age ever being baptized. Consider it well!

The children Jesus defended were not baptized (Matthew 18:1-14; 19:13-15; Mark 9:33-43). Would have been a prefect opportunity for Christ to mention baptism, but not a single word.

All the specific cases of baptism described in the New Testament are of adults, not infants, and not even youth.

Jesus fulfilled righteousness by baptism at 30 (Luke 3:21-23); Timothy was a youth, but we are not told enough to know what Paul meant by that vague term (Ist Tim 4:12; 2nd Tim 2:22).

Household baptisms prove Catholics and wanna be Catholics, and Presbyterians wrong, but not Baptists; for the word of God was taught and believed before baptism in all cases (Acts 10:44-48; 16:32-33).

The Bible is quite meager on the level of responsibility expected or required at any specific age. God judged Israel from entering Canaan from the age of 20 (Numbers 14:28-35; 32:11). A simple rule like 20 is very appealing to us that would like a black and white rule, but there is no specific age given for us to use ~ just some wise, safe guidelines to follow, nothing more.

Those under 20 are described as not knowing good from evil, but we must interpret this in light of their inability to make the decision to take Canaan themselves (Deuteronomy 1:39) ~these youthful folks are very busy trying to figure out life and how to deal with their youthful lust.

Those over 20 had to pay an atonement tax for their souls (Exodus 30:11-16; 38:26). Moses numbered all those 20 and over as able to go forth to war (Numbers 1:3,45; 26:2). Levites worked at 20 (Ist Chronicles 23:24), at 25 (Numbers 8:24), and at 30 years of age (Numbers 4:3).

God described the innocent of Nineveh as not knowing their right hand from left (Jonah 4:11). This vague description is not conclusive again, but it may be assumed near 5 years of age. Our own education-obsessed society does not attempt much instruction before the age of 5.

The shame of nakedness is an indicator from nature of active consciences (Gen 2:25; 3:7,11,22). Young children show no shame about nakedness in front of the other sex, but this changes. You must consider a child’s shame apart from habit, peer pressure, or parental restrictions.

God and men assume infancy, childhood, youth, majority, and old age (Lev 27:1-7; Eccl 11:10). Here is a valuable passage that indicates the relative value of ages and sexes for redemption. Observe that God considers all children between one month and five years as infants (27:6). The category from 5 to 20 would include children and youth, though youth might in some contexts include those under 30, when leadership began (Numbers 4:3,35,39,43,47; Luke 3:23).

The knowledge level for baptism is not high, "but it does require a conscience and some knowledge". Most instruction and growth takes place after baptism (Matt 28:18-20; Ist Peter 2:1-3; 2nd Pet 3:18).

John the Baptist required confession and repentance to be proven before baptism (Matthew 3:1-8). Peter required the same at Pentecost (Acts 2:38); and Paul taught it to all (Acts 26:20). The Jews at Pentecost, the eunuch, the jailor, and Cornelius gave evidence of faith. It requires faith in the gospel (Matt 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 8:12; 18:8; Hebrews 11:6). It requires the answer of an active and intelligent conscience to answer God (Ist Peter 3:21).

So much more could be said as far as a guideline to follow using God's word ~ but, enough for now.

First of all, I'm glad you realized the foolishness of running away from this unfinished debate to start another.

Your double standards remain. You had the floor to spew out your same rant about Church Fathers to Johann but again you chose not to. Why the prejudice? Let's see if we can diagnose the source of your prejudice.

From what little we've interacted with each other I can see that your prejudism comes from your ignorance of the Apostles, the very people who gave us the Scriptures you revere. The same Apostles that bequeathed us the Scriptures also beqeathed to us Churches. I'm appalled at your "I don't know what you're talking about" statement. Scripture talks about Churches in general, Church practices, Church structure, etc... Mind you, the Scriptures do not fully detail Churches because Churches were already up and running, as there was a more urgent need to write about things like judaizing heresies than about things that were already up and fully functioning properly like Churches. Let's look at Acts 2:38-39 again. Where do you think people and their children actually executed Peter's commands? In the Churches that the Apostles planted. Learn about these Churches. You're very mistaken if you think that the Apostles just left writings for us to figure out, each in our own way, how to go about applying what they wrote. You nor anyone else is an Apostle, nor should anyone attempt to usurp them in how Church practices are to be conducted like baptisms.

As for the Bible, I only gave you and Kermos about 6 passages to look at in our recent discussions and let's see how you're still either bypassing portions of them or failing to critically address them. Let's look at a few examples.

Acts 2:38-39:
Ask yourself what are the implications of the Promise and Gift of the Holy Spirit for all dependant children (infants obviously included) of the Pentecost crowd, of believers in other lands, and of all future believers as mentioned in Acts 2:38-39.

2 Th 2:13:
You immediately ran off to other passages hoping your interpretation of those passages overwhelm what 2 Th 2:13 clearly says, namely that belief precedes election. See Post 6597. Throwing verses against verses will never allow you to arrive at the Truth. Verses must be harmonized, not overwhelmed into submission according to your presuppositions.

John 8:24;
Just for argument’s sake, let’s imagine your election before belief heresy is true. Let’s bring up John 8:24 and see what happens:

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

That means you are dead in your sins as long as you do not believe. So if one is chosen in Christ (made alive in Christ) but still dead in his sins, well, that makes him a Living Dead person, a zombie monstrocity that is an impossibility and proves your heresy is an abomination.

Conclusion;
Although, there is no explicit account of an infant being baptized, there is also no explicit prohibition of infant baptism in the Bible either. So we both have to use critical thinking to arrive at the Truth. For example, critical thinking dictates that there is very little chance you find infants involved in a Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism). Mind you, John the Baptism leapt for joy in his mother's womb so maybe there were a few infants baptized there, I don't know.

Also, you must think Historically and Middle Eastern, not Western and definitely not Individualistically, as Johann alluded to earlier. For example, household meant everyone in the household (children, servants, etc...) with no one excluded.

 

[Kermos]

So we're just puppets being controlled by either God or Satan? What a cruel trick God played on us, if that is true. Apparently He doesn't love us after all.

You wrote "puppets" in contrast to "vessels" of which the Apostle Paul wrote:

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
(Romans 9:18-23)
​

So, faithful, glorious, and loving Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into Romans 9:19-23.

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault since if that is true God played on us a cruel trick, apparently He doesn't love us after all? For who among puppets resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free-will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)
​

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in Romans 9:20 showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings - look at your post, dwight92070.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE POTTER!!!

 

[synergy]

That's a good point to consider ~ why was Jesus baptized, certainly not for the forgiveness of sins, but to fulfill all righteousness.

synergy ~consider: Still by Jesus being baptized, we all must admit that it took a conscience that was instructed by the word of God, to willingly submit to water baptism, with a knowledge as to why they were being baptized.

Your conscience is your alarm system to alert you of personal guilt. What are infants guilty of? Being born?

"to fulfill all righteousness" ~ It became John to administer the ordinance of baptism to Christ, as he was his forerunner, and the only administrator of it at the beginning the kingdom of God (in the sense in which it is used in the gospels) and that he might fulfil the ministry which he had received; and as it became Christ to fulfil all righteousness, moral and ceremonial, by being baptized.....water baptism being the perfect picture as why he was born into this world, a part of his Father's will, which he came to do, it became him to fulfil this also. And since it became Christ, it cannot be unbecoming us to submit to this ordinance; and since he looked upon it as a part of righteousness to be fulfilled by him, it ought to be attended to by all those who would be accounted followers of him, to do so in the exact manner in which Christ was baptized by immersion.

"to fulfill all righteousness" ~ also, baptism not only is a perfect picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, it also is a perfect picture of a future resurrection of our bodies ~ which knowledge teaches us why we are baptized, such knowledge can only be understood by a person who is able to be taught such things. This rules out infant baptism as being scriptural.

Would you include infants within the scope of Jesus' righteousness or would you exclude them?

1st Corinthians 15:29​

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”

Some at Corinth taught that there is no resurrection, and Paul asked them............why are they then baptized for the dead if the dead rise not at all??” When we are baptized in water by immersion, we are saying to all that see our baptism ~we believe in a future resurrection of our bodies just as it is promised in the scriptures! If we did not believe this truth, then why are we baptized for the dead, if the dead do not come forth out of grave? So by Christ submitting to water baptism, he was testifying of a few blessed truths taught in the word of God, fulfilling all of the teaching of the scripture that Christ's righteousness secured for his people.

Infants also have a body that is to be ressurected also, but they still need to cognitively commit to Christ when they become older.

So far infants fit the requirements of Jesus' Baptism unless you think that they are guilty of being born or that they are not benefactors of Jesus' righteousness.

 

[Kermos]

Put 2 toddlers in a room full of nice toys and close the door, look through the window and watch what happens. Both will explore the toys for quite some time but eventually one of the toddlers wants to have the toy the other has and you may see a lot of violence. Who told them that?

We (adults) knowing good from evil can only write on their blank and undeveloped conscience that violence is wrong.

You convey "my heart is good apart from the Son of God and fully equipped to free-will choose to believe in the Son of God", yet the Son of God called the Apostles evil when He said "If you then, being evil" (Matthew 7:11), so you believe you are superior to the apostles.

You convey "my heart is good apart from God and fully equipped to free-will choose to believe in God", yet it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it" (Jeremiah 17:9), so your heart is deceived to think your wicked heart is good with the ability to free-will choose to believe in the Lord God Almighty.

You convey "my heart is good apart from Jesus and fully equipped to free-will choose to believe in Jesus", yet Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (The Word of God, John 15:5), so you believe Lord Jesus Christ is a liar.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE EMMANUEL!!!

 

[synergy]

You convey "my heart is good apart from the Son of God and fully equipped to free-will choose to believe in the Son of God", yet the Son of God called the Apostles evil when He said "If you then, being evil" (Matthew 7:11), so you believe you are superior to the apostles.

Let's apply your medicine to yourself. Unless "you are superior to the Apostles", then you yourself are "evil".

Come to think of it, that ties in very nicely with your exposed Man-Made Living Dead abomination philosophy.

To refresh your memory again, here is your exposed Man-Made Living Dead philosophy again:

Just for argument’s sake, let’s imagine your election before belief heresy is true. Let’s bring up John 8:24 and see what happens:

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

That means you are dead in your sins as long as you do not believe. So if one is chosen in Christ (made alive in Christ) but still dead in his sins, well, that makes him a Living Dead person, a zombie monstrocity that is an impossibility and proves your heresy is an abomination.

 

[Red Baker]

From what little we've interacted with each other I can see that your prejudism comes from your ignorance of the Apostles, the very people who gave us the Scriptures you revere. The same Apostles that bequeathed us the Scriptures also beqeathed to us Churches. I'm appalled at your "I don't know what you're talking about" statement. Scripture talks about Churches in general, Church practices, Church structure, etc... Mind you, the Scriptures do not fully detail Churches because Churches were already up and running, as there was a more urgent need to write about things like judaizing heresies than about things that were already up and fully functioning properly like Churches. Let's look at Acts 2:38-39 again. Where do you think people and their children actually executed Peter's commands? In the Churches that the Apostles planted. Learn about these Churches. You're very mistaken if you think that the Apostles just left writings for us to figure out, each in our own way, how to go about applying what they wrote. You nor anyone else is an Apostle, nor should anyone attempt to usurp them in how Church practices are to be conducted like baptisms.

Oh I see better the more you babble on. You and your church, EOC or RECC, since both of them put "traditions" on par with the holy scriptures, but the very elect refuse to do so! We test so-called churches and yes, your golden calf, the church fathers by the words of our God, His testimony above these heretic, which most of them were after the days of the holy apostles of our Lord Jesus..... you do not like what I am saying, so be it! I do not think much of your golden calf!

I do not remember but I will go back and see what I said to Johann, and, if I did, then I would do it again, for it was them that bought into the churches of Christ/God, the heresy of infant baptism, that even some good men could not shake free of.

Acts 20:29~“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”

Did they ever come dressed in long robe, pretending to be humble men of God, but inwardly they were grievous wolves!

Jude 1:4~“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

They come denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and they do this by preaching by opposing the truth is: men like you who teach a "Synergetic gospel" denying the very truth of the gospel of God! Your name places you in Jude's condemnation and Peter's.

2nd Peter 2:1~“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

You and they preach against Jesus dying only for his people, (thus denying the Lord that bought them, the church) and that his death only made salvation possible, it did not secured the salvation for any, much less his very elect.

They and you teach a heresy called free will, meaning the sinner is free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God ~ without God first creating within the sinner a new man, after the image of Jesus Christ! On and on we could go how those early church father heretics are the true father of a false gospel that you and others have come to worship above the word of God ~ you can have them, I'll take God's testimony as my only rule of faith to judge false teaching by.

Scripture talks about Churches in general, Church practices, Church structure, etc... Mind you, the Scriptures do not fully detail Churches because Churches were already up and running, as there was a more urgent need to write about things like judaizing heresies than about things that were already up and fully functioning properly like Churches.

I know well ~ but they had their problems even with Paul overseeing them, but as soon as the man of God departed and the other apostles as well, those so-called "church" fathers came and sowed their heresies. You may love them since they are the father of EOC/RCC and such harlots daughters from them, but I despised them and those of our days that are still following them instead of the word of God. One word for you and all others who and infatuated them ....If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ and his word only, by which we judge all men, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Where do you think people and their children actually executed Peter's commands? In the Churches that the Apostles planted. Learn about these Churches. You're very mistaken if you think that the Apostles just left writings for us to figure out, each in our own way, how to go about applying what they wrote.

Mainly, in their private daily life! I'm not mistaken Mr. Pharisees, you are. Jesus said:

Matthew 4:4​

“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

I do not need a man dress like mama, and talks like Papa telling me what I need to do and believe, etc. I do not live by church traditions, you can, not me, not today, tomorrow or ever. Is this clear to you? Luke said:

Acts 17:11~"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

God's elect are noble believers, we are not rubberstamp followers of a cult! We use the word of God to test folks, we refuse to allow men to rule over our conscience and tell us what we must, or not believe.

1 John 4:1​

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” We do so by using the scriptures.

You nor anyone else is an Apostle, nor should anyone attempt to usurp them in how Church practices are to be conducted like baptisms.

Oh really? So, you want to take the scriptures out of our hands and placed them only in the hands of false prophets? No way, not today, tomorrow, or ever. God's children have the Spirit of God and are more than able to discern truth and error without some man telling them what to believe and not believe.

1st John 2:27​

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

God's children are more than able to teach themselves among themselves with out having some so-called Pope, Cardinal, priest, pastor, etc. telling them what they must believe, etc. The word of God is our Lord and Master, with the Spirit of God living within us being our teacher using His word. You have a problem with that, so be it, it's your problem not ours.

I'm not going back over the scriptures we ahve already addressed.

Conclusion;
Although, there is no explicit account of an infant being baptized, there is also no explicit prohibition of infant baptism in the Bible either. So we both have to use critical thinking to arrive at the Truth. For example, critical thinking dictates that there is very little chance you find infants involved in a Baptism of Repentance (John's Baptism). Mind you, John the Baptism leapt for joy in his mother's womb so maybe there were a few infants baptized there, I don't know.

Also, you must think Historically and Middle Eastern, not Western and definitely not Individualistically, as Johann alluded to earlier. For example, household meant everyone in the household (children, servants, etc...) with no one excluded.

Oh, I see, we are to use critical thinking to teach truth! I do not think so. the scriptures said:

Isaiah 8:20~"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You said: "Also, you must think Historically and Middle Eastern, not Western and definitely not Individualistically" So, how can we use critical thinking, if we are to let others think for us? You clearly said... definitely not Individualistically. Why not Western? I know because EOC/RCC is your source o9f teaching and not the word of God.

You said: For example, household meant everyone in the household (children, servants, etc...) with no one excluded. So, you come up with this conclusion by doing away with the scriptures. One word for you, stop calling yourself by that worthy name Christian, for you do not live by every word of God as true born agai9n children of God do.

​

 

[MTMattie]

Household baptisms prove Catholics and wanna be Catholics, and Presbyterians wrong, but not Baptists; for the word of God was taught and believed before baptism in all cases (Acts 10:44-48; 16:32-33).

@Red Baker, Dont forget the Lutherans, and Methodists.

Red, you ought not read the following. It is alright. You have a lot to answer other people but I just wanted so to see what came from a Lutheran paper. And these are outside references interpreting some scriptures so of little interest.

Love the Luthern's explanation...

Infants are included in “all nations" who are to be baptized (Matt. 28:19). Certainly they were included in Peter's Pentecost exhortation in Acts 2:38, 39: “Repent and be baptized everyone one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. ... The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off — for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Whole households, everyone in the family, were baptized in the beginning of New Testament times, which in all probability included infants (Acts 16:15 and 33). [The “household” formula used here by Luke has Old Testament precedent, with special reference also to small children, as for example in 1 Sam. 22:16, 19; see Joachim Jeremias, Infant Baptism in the First Four Centuries, 22-23.]

In Romans 6, the Holy Spirit tells us in the Word that in Baptism we have been united with Jesus' death and resurrection–regenerated, dying to sin and rising to new life. That happens to infants when baptized (Gal. 3:27).

“For as many of you who have been baptized have put on Christ.” Baptism through the Word creates the faith necessary to receive salvation for infants. Infants can have faith.

In Mark 10:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.”

The Greek word in this text is “paidia” which means babes in arms. Infants can belong to the kingdom of God.

“From the lips of children and infants, You have ordained praise ...” Psalm 8:2. “Yet You brought me out of the womb, You made me trust in You even at my mother's breast” Psalm 22:9.

From the beginning of New Testament Christianity at Pentecost to our time, unbroken and uninterrupted, the Church has baptized babies. Polycarp (69-155 AD), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant.

Justin Martyr (100-166 AD) of the next generation, about the year 150 AD, states in his Dialog with Trypho The Jew “that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament.”

Irenaeus (130-200 AD) writes in Against Heresies II 22:4 “that Jesus came to save all through means of Himself — all, I say, who through Him are born again to God – infants and children, boys and youth, and old men.”

Similar expressions are found in succeeding generations by Origen (185-254 AD) and Cyprian (215-258 AD), and at the Council of Carthage in 254 where the 66 bishops stated: “We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God ... especially infants ... those newly born.”

Origen wrote in his Commentary on Romans 5:9: “For this also it was that the Church had from the Apostles a tradition to give baptism even to infants.” Origen also wrote in his Homily on Luke 14: “Infants are to be baptized for the remission of sins.”

Cyprian's reply to a bishop who wrote to him regarding the baptism of infants stated: “Should we wait until the 8th day as did the Jews in the circumcision? No, the child should be baptized as soon as it is born."

Augustine (354-430 AD) wrote in De Genesi Ad Literam, 10:39 declared, “The custom of our mother Church in baptizing infants must not be counted needless, nor believed to be other than a tradition of the Apostles.”

Augustine further states: “... the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ.”

In 517 AD, 10 rules of discipline were framed for the Church in Spain. The fifth rule states that “... in case infants were ill ... if they were offered, to baptize them, even though it were the day that they were born...such was to be done.” (The History of Baptism by Robert Robinson, London, Thomas Knott, 1790, p.269)

This pattern of baptizing infants remained in Christianity through the Dark and Middle Ages until modern times. In the 1,500 years from the time of Christ to the Protestant Reformation, the only notable church father who expressed opposition to infant Baptism was Tertullian (160-215 AD). Tertullian held that in the case of “little children,” baptism ought to be delayed until they “know how to ask for salvation” (“On Baptism,” ch. 18).

Then in the 1520s the Christian Church experienced opposition specifically to infant Baptism under the influence of Thomas Muenzer and other fanatics who opposed both civil and religious authority, original sin and human concupiscence.

Thomas' opposition was then embraced by a considerable number of Swiss, German and Dutch Anabaptists. This brought about strong warning and renunciation by the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Reformed alike.

It was considered a shameless affront to what had been practiced in each generation since Christ's command in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) to baptize all nations irrespective of age.

Historical excerpts are from “Infant Baptism in Early Church History," by Dr. Dennis Kastens in Issues Etc. Journal, Spring 1997, Vol. 2, No. 3.

 

[civic]

I thought the topic was "free will".

sometimes a thread gets a life and direction of their own as we just let them develop. Other forums delete posts that are " off topic" and micro manage everyhing/. We are not that way here and no one likes to be micro managed/controlled. We are all adults and we like to give everyone the same freedom to post/share their thoughts, ideas, questions whether or not we agree with them.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, you ought not read the following. It is alright. You have a lot to answer other people but I just wanted so to see what came from a Lutheran paper. And these are outside references interpreting some scriptures so of little interest.

Just read it, now I'm going to google Tertullian and read up on him concerning this topic. I have read him over the years, but forgot much of what I did read concerning some of his teachings. I want to refresh my mind.

 

[synergy]

Just read it, now I'm going to google Tertullian and read up on him concerning this topic. I have read him over the years, but forgot much of what I did read concerning some of his teachings. I want to refresh my mind.

No more knee-jerk rants from you concerning Church Fathers I see. Excellent!!! We are making progress. Praise God!

 

[Red Baker]

No more knee-jerk rants from you concerning Church Fathers I see. Excellent!!! We are making progress. Praise God!

Well, what few pages I read, just reminds me just how blinded they were, would you like for me to point out a few things he said? be happy to do so.

Btw, I'm waiting on an answer from my post to you. #6687

 

[synergy]

Oh I see better the more you babble on. You and your church, EOC or RECC, since both of them put "traditions" on par with the holy scriptures, but the very elect refuse to do so! We test so-called churches and yes, your golden calf, the church fathers by the words of our God, His testimony above these heretic, which most of them were after the days of the holy apostles of our Lord Jesus..... you do not like what I am saying, so be it! I do not think much of your golden calf!

First of all, I am talking about the Apostles, not about any church denomination. If you can't see that fact then you are in need of new glasses for your eyes. I can chip in for a new pair of glasses for you.

I do not remember but I will go back and see what I said to Johann, and, if I did, then I would do it again, for it was them that bought into the churches of Christ/God, the heresy of infant baptism, that even some good men could not shake free of.

Acts 20:29~“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”

Did they ever come dressed in long robe, pretending to be humble men of God, but inwardly they were grievous wolves!

Jude 1:4~“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

They come denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and they do this by preaching by opposing the truth is: men like you who teach a "Synergetic gospel" denying the very truth of the gospel of God! Your name places you in Jude's condemnation and Peter's.

2nd Peter 2:1~“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

You and they preach against Jesus dying only for his people, (thus denying the Lord that bought them, the church) and that his death only made salvation possible, it did not secured the salvation for any, much less his very elect.

They and you teach a heresy called free will, meaning the sinner is free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God ~ without God first creating within the sinner a new man, after the image of Jesus Christ! On and on we could go how those early church father heretics are the true father of a false gospel that you and others have come to worship above the word of God ~ you can have them, I'll take God's testimony as my only rule of faith to judge false teaching by.

As for the Apostles, you either accept them as a whole or you are betraying them. Either accept everything they bequeathed to us or you become the very false prophet that your quoted verses warn us against.

You can ask what Churches did the Apostles bequeath to us. We have more than enough archeological evidence in the Roman Catacombs and other sites to give us a very good pictures of what constituted the Early Church.

I know well ~ but they had their problems even with Paul overseeing them, but as soon as the man of God departed and the other apostles as well, those so-called "church" fathers came and sowed their heresies. You may love them since they are the father of EOC/RCC and such harlots daughters from them, but I despised them and those of our days that are still following them instead of the word of God. One word for you and all others who and infatuated them ....If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ and his word only, by which we judge all men, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Mainly, in their private daily life! I'm not mistaken Mr. Pharisees, you are. Jesus said:

Matthew 4:4​

“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

I do not need a man dress like mama, and talks like Papa telling me what I need to do and believe, etc. I do not live by church traditions, you can, not me, not today, tomorrow or ever. Is this clear to you? Luke said:

Acts 17:11~"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

God's elect are noble believers, we are not rubberstamp followers of a cult! We use the word of God to test folks, we refuse to allow men to rule over our conscience and tell us what we must, or not believe.

1 John 4:1​

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” We do so by using the scriptures.

Both Scripture and the original Churches were bequeathed to us by Apostles. It would be ludicrous for the Apostles to bequeath to us Scripture and original Church practices that contradict each other. You're accusing the Apostles of being schizophrenic.

As far as "a man dressing like a mama", that's a cultural thing. I would like to see you say that to a Roman Soldier who also dressed with what looked like a skirt around his waist. Anyways, this is just more silliness on your part.

Oh really? So, you want to take the scriptures out of our hands and placed them only in the hands of false prophets? No way, not today, tomorrow, or ever. God's children have the Spirit of God and are more than able to discern truth and error without some man telling them what to believe and not believe.

1st John 2:27​

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

God's children are more than able to teach themselves among themselves with out having some so-called Pope, Cardinal, priest, pastor, etc. telling them what they must believe, etc. The word of God is our Lord and Master, with the Spirit of God living within us being our teacher using His word. You have a problem with that, so be it, it's your problem not ours.

Nobody is saying to take "the scriptures out of our hands". Your paranoia is flaring.

I'm not going back over the scriptures we ahve already addressed.

So you are ok with running off to other passages hoping your interpretation of those passages overwhelm what 2 Th 2:13 clearly says, namely that belief precedes election. Throwing verses against verses will never allow you to arrive at the Truth. Verses must be harmonized, not overwhelmed into submission according to your presuppositions.

Oh, I see, we are to use critical thinking to teach truth! I do not think so. the scriptures said:

Isaiah 8:20~"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

In this case where something is not explicitly explained in Scripture then you are of the opinion to never use critical thinking, I see. That's exactly what I see from you. You use no critical thinking. I rest my case.

You said: "Also, you must think Historically and Middle Eastern, not Western and definitely not Individualistically" So, how can we use critical thinking, if we are to let others think for us? You clearly said... definitely not Individualistically. Why not Western? I know because EOC/RCC is your source o9f teaching and not the word of God.

Are you seriously saying that there were no critical thinkers historically or in the Middle East? Where do you think Algebra came from and many other advancements? You are an ignorant one.

You said: For example, household meant everyone in the household (children, servants, etc...) with no one excluded. So, you come up with this conclusion by doing away with the scriptures. One word for you, stop calling yourself by that worthy name Christian, for you do not live by every word of God as true born agai9n children of God do.

Interesting that when Johann explained household in a very similar way, you commended him for that. Looks like more prejudice on your part.

Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Act_16:15 "her household had been baptized" This apparently refers to her family, servants, and workers (cf. Cornelius, Act_10:2; Act_11:14; and the Philippian jailer, Act_16:33). Also, notice that she, like others in the NT, was baptized immediately. It is not an option! See Special Topic: Baptism at Act_2:38.

 

[synergy]

Well, what few pages I read, just reminds me just how blinded they were, would you like for me to point out a few things he said? be happy to do so.

Btw, I'm waiting on an answer from my post to you. #6687

Done. And I'm waiting for 6684.

 

[Kermos]

Oh I see better the more you babble on. You and your church, EOC or RECC, since both of them put "traditions" on par with the holy scriptures, but the very elect refuse to do so! We test so-called churches and yes, your golden calf, the church fathers by the words of our God, His testimony above these heretic, which most of them were after the days of the holy apostles of our Lord Jesus..... you do not like what I am saying, so be it! I do not think much of your golden calf!

I do not remember but I will go back and see what I said to Johann, and, if I did, then I would do it again, for it was them that bought into the churches of Christ/God, the heresy of infant baptism, that even some good men could not shake free of.

Acts 20:29~“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”

Did they ever come dressed in long robe, pretending to be humble men of God, but inwardly they were grievous wolves!

Jude 1:4~“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

They come denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and they do this by preaching by opposing the truth is: men like you who teach a "Synergetic gospel" denying the very truth of the gospel of God! Your name places you in Jude's condemnation and Peter's.

2nd Peter 2:1~“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

You and they preach against Jesus dying only for his people, (thus denying the Lord that bought them, the church) and that his death only made salvation possible, it did not secured the salvation for any, much less his very elect.

They and you teach a heresy called free will, meaning the sinner is free to do spiritual acts pleasing to God ~ without God first creating within the sinner a new man, after the image of Jesus Christ! On and on we could go how those early church father heretics are the true father of a false gospel that you and others have come to worship above the word of God ~ you can have them, I'll take God's testimony as my only rule of faith to judge false teaching by.

I know well ~ but they had their problems even with Paul overseeing them, but as soon as the man of God departed and the other apostles as well, those so-called "church" fathers came and sowed their heresies. You may love them since they are the father of EOC/RCC and such harlots daughters from them, but I despised them and those of our days that are still following them instead of the word of God. One word for you and all others who and infatuated them ....If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ and his word only, by which we judge all men, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Mainly, in their private daily life! I'm not mistaken Mr. Pharisees, you are. Jesus said:

Matthew 4:4​

“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

I do not need a man dress like mama, and talks like Papa telling me what I need to do and believe, etc. I do not live by church traditions, you can, not me, not today, tomorrow or ever. Is this clear to you? Luke said:

Acts 17:11~"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

God's elect are noble believers, we are not rubberstamp followers of a cult! We use the word of God to test folks, we refuse to allow men to rule over our conscience and tell us what we must, or not believe.

1 John 4:1​

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” We do so by using the scriptures.

Oh really? So, you want to take the scriptures out of our hands and placed them only in the hands of false prophets? No way, not today, tomorrow, or ever. God's children have the Spirit of God and are more than able to discern truth and error without some man telling them what to believe and not believe.

1st John 2:27​

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

God's children are more than able to teach themselves among themselves with out having some so-called Pope, Cardinal, priest, pastor, etc. telling them what they must believe, etc. The word of God is our Lord and Master, with the Spirit of God living within us being our teacher using His word. You have a problem with that, so be it, it's your problem not ours.

I'm not going back over the scriptures we ahve already addressed.

Oh, I see, we are to use critical thinking to teach truth! I do not think so. the scriptures said:

Isaiah 8:20~"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You said: "Also, you must think Historically and Middle Eastern, not Western and definitely not Individualistically" So, how can we use critical thinking, if we are to let others think for us? You clearly said... definitely not Individualistically. Why not Western? I know because EOC/RCC is your source o9f teaching and not the word of God.

You said: For example, household meant everyone in the household (children, servants, etc...) with no one excluded. So, you come up with this conclusion by doing away with the scriptures. One word for you, stop calling yourself by that worthy name Christian, for you do not live by every word of God as true born agai9n children of God do.

Another post expressing the Power of God! Praise the Lord!

The Free-willian Philosophers deceive by preaching "'if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.' (Ignatius of Antioch, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, ch.5, long version) Before going further, note here that both St. Clement and St. Ignatius were only one generation removed from Jesus himself. Indeed, they were both in direct contact with the Apostles themselves! What does that say if students of the Apostles believed in the importance of genuine free will" (proof post #6,510, a relatively recent post recording a person, @GodsGrace, who does not know the Grace of God).

Plenty of ancient commentary exists that declares God is sovereign in the salvation of man, even among the Free-willian Philosophers deficiently quoted text such as the above, but they are blind to the Word of God and they adulterate the Word of God, so it is no surprise that they adulterate ancient commentary (see en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Epistle_to_the_Magnesians for a side by side comparison of the translation from the text tbat we have of Ignatius' letter according to historians (the shorter recension) versus the modern edited by another person(s)/editor(s) (the longer recension) and search for the text string "not by nature, but by his own choice" to properly compare the ancient text to the modern text - the text string occurs once on the whole document exclusively in the modern translation of the non-Ignatius letter - ESSENTIALLY, THEY TOOK A MODERN COPY THAT AGREES WITH THEIR OWN THOUGHTS INSTEAD OF THAT WHICH IGNATIUS WROTE - see that Ignatius did not use the word "choice" nor hint at "choice" in the shorter recension - in effect, they lie by causing Ignatius to lie - they even used a fabricated letter from Ignatius to try to prove their point - the devil is the father of lies (John 8:44).

Even a little leaven (deviation from the Word of God) leavens the whole loaf (the person adhering to the deviation from the Word of God) (Galatians 5:7-9), and their blue text deviates from Jesus Christ's red text “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE BE TO LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[ProDeo]

You convey "my heart is good apart from the Son of God and fully equipped to free-will choose to believe in the Son of God", yet the Son of God called the Apostles evil when He said "If you then, being evil" (Matthew 7:11), so you believe you are superior to the apostles.

You convey "my heart is good apart from God and fully equipped to free-will choose to believe in God", yet it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it" (Jeremiah 17:9), so your heart is deceived to think your wicked heart is good with the ability to free-will choose to believe in the Lord God Almighty.

You convey "my heart is good apart from Jesus and fully equipped to free-will choose to believe in Jesus", yet Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (The Word of God, John 15:5), so you believe Lord Jesus Christ is a liar.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE EMMANUEL!!!

I am tired of your insults and condemnations and reported you.

 

[Administrator]

sometimes a thread gets a life and direction of their own as we just let them develop. Other forums delete posts that are " off topic" and micro manage everyhing/. We are not that way here and no one likes to be micro managed/controlled. We are all adults and we like to give everyone the same freedom to post/share their thoughts, ideas, questions whether or not we agree with them.

Right on and let's do it in a polite and loving manner. That means no insults or put downs.

Thread 'Exposing Unacceptable Tactics'

Oct 9, 2023

I've found that people who are consistently rude act like it's no big deal. That you're being overly sensitive. Or that you're so far out in the left field they have to be rude in order to get your attention. And the list goes on. But is it true?

Why Rudeness Hurts​

Being exposed to rudeness can create a range of negative emotions, from outrage to distress.

Why Rudeness Hurts

Being exposed to someone who is rude can be unsettling, especially when it is completely unprovoked. New research shows how rudeness also affects your ability to think clearly.

www.psychologytoday.com

• Mod2
• Replies: 66
• Forum: Our Goals in Moderating BAM

• 

 

[Red Baker]

First of all, I am talking about the Apostles, not about any church denomination. If you can't see that fact then you are in need of new glasses for your eyes. I can chip in for a new pair of glasses for you.

@synergy

Save your money, I'm not far from 80 and still do not use glasses except for reading, and even then only to make sure that I'm reading the writing correctly, and I can go faster with glasses.

synergy, of course I know you were not talking about the apostle, that's cunning on your part to thrown that in as though I'm not following you very well ~ try harder to be honest, I know I'm asking a lot from you, but try. I know you were not speaking about any particluar denomination, even though you without question hinted as to who had the truth to start with ~ when you said plainly:

Also, you must think Historically and Middle Eastern

Like the Eastern Orthodox Church, little sister of the RCC, same father, same generations of vipers of the old serpent, the great enemy of the saints.

No thank you, I'll have not one thing to do with those two whores, (among many more in the religious sector of mystery Babylon) where the man of sin, sits and rules, declaring himself to be God.

As for the Apostles, you either accept them as a whole or you are betraying them.

synergy, let me be very clear to you and any other person that may read this: I take every word that is recorded in the scriptures as coming from the mouth of God and test every doctrine, and teaching of man by the scriptures, period. Any words, traditions of men spoken outside of the scriptures, whether they be words from even angels, of words that any apostle that men think they have found, that is not recorded in the scriptures, as false, if those words go against what is written and preserved for us in the scriptures of truth.

Galatians 1:8​

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

Daniel 10:21​

“But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.”

All godly angels and men live by what is noted in the scriptures of truth, for there is no spiritual truth outside of the word of God. Man has sought to corrupt and pervert truth by their traditions and man made commandments, etc. Is this point clear to you? Sola Scriptura for all of God's children is what we live by and trust in.

this case where something is not explicitly explained in Scripture then you are of the opinion to never use critical thinking, I see. That's exactly what I see from you. You use no critical thinking. I rest my case.

Have you ever heard of the thing called prayer, seeking, trusting, mediations, etc. this is where truth comes to God's children, we darn not trust in our own hearts and so-called critical thinking, that's one reason there is so much corruption of God words, men playing God, with God's word.

As far as "a man dressing like a mama", that's a cultural thing. I would like to see you say that to a Roman Soldier who also dressed with what looked like a skirt around his waist. Anyways, this is just more silliness on your part.

Luke 20:46​

“Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;”

These sodomites play the part of being religious, but inwardly, they go after little boys behind their parents back! Using rellgion to fulfill their sinful lust. Proven fact, just now coming out, but so much still has been kept from public. Of course, I know that this type of wickedness is not limited to EOC/RCC, but is in every false cults in the religious sector mystery Babylon.

Are you seriously saying that there were no critical thinkers historically or in the Middle East? Where do you think Algebra came from and many other advancements? You are an ignorant one.

We are talking about religion, and God's word, not concerning secular things of this world. Not very much good coming out of the middle east at the moment. It is sad to see all the hatred and misery those folks are living in day after day. Not very much good has come from there once the apostles died off.

Interesting that when Johann explained household in a very similar way, you commended him for that. Looks like more prejudice on your part.

On that point He was correct, and should be commended ~ he used it different than the way you did, and you that to be so.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

To, also, @Eternally-Grateful, @MTMattie, @synergy and @civic, since each one of you extended a heartfelt "Like" to the post.

Persons give likes because they fully agree with something that is said and, if you ever want to take notice of this,
ONLY CALVINISTS agree that God is the God that YOU THINK He is.

Every other denomination DISAGREES with reformed theology because it CANNOT possibly be right.
This would give me pause and lead me to reconsider my belief system.

Pay attention, each of you, to the Apostle's application of Your Hand illuminating God's intimate control of humanity:

​

"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,​

'Why did the Gentiles rage,​

​

And the peoples devise futile things?​

​

'The kings of the earth took their stand,​

​

And the rulers were gathered together​

​

Against the Lord and against His Christ.'​

​

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your Hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."​

((Acts 4:24-30), the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)​

​

Look carefully, for the Assembly of God unison prayer to God includes Pontius Pilate to do whatever Your Hand predestined to occur. That is a specific person under the direct influence of the Lord God Almighty to murder the innocent Son of Man.

The Lord God Almighty lovingly sent the Son of God to redeem God's chosen persons. God is love.

When are the Reformed/Calvinists going to stop using the sacrifice of Jesus to ATTEMPT to support Calvinism and its disasterous theology?

Are you trying to say that Christians do not understand that God PREDESTINATED THE DEATH OF JESUS to atone for the sins of man?

Try to come up with something better.

God, from the beginning of time, planned for man to be saved THROUGH JESUS.
No problem here Kermos.

BUT
God does not CHOOSE who will be saved.
Man is ABLE to seek God.
Jesus atonement is for EVERYONE.
God's grace can be resisted.
Man has Free Will.

The ABOVE is what you have to show to be incorrect.

Depending on the sacrifice of Jesus,,,that WE ALL KNOW was predestinated...
is of no help to you.

The Lord God Almighty is always good:

​

No one is good except God alone​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18).​

Sure.
Easy to say.
But can you SHOW US HOW?

HOW does God leaving some to be damned to hell for eternity
FOR NO REASON other than for HIS GOOD PLEASURE...
make God a good God?

We all know GOD IS GOOD Kermos...
It's the reformed/calvinists that make God out to be NOT GOOD.

​

The Lord God Almighty establishes which of man perceive God:

​

I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).​

What, exactly, do you think the above means???
This is a problem.
The reformed take ordinary verses and make them mean all sorts of incorrect doctrine.

Matthew 11:25
25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Now, let's look at Matthew 11 in full:
Verse 14
14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
Verse 14 speak of Free Will.

Verse 15
15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Verse 15 means that a person is ABLE TO HEAR,,,,IF he WANTS TO HEAR.
Free Will.

Verses 16-19
16 "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,
17 and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'
18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'
19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Jesus was addressing the current generation of Jews.
They were like spoiled children COMPLAINING TO GOD...Apparently they didn't know that God had predestinated everything for them.
These child-like Jews were never happy....they called John the Baptist crazy...and they called Jesus friend of the misfits.
But Jesus didn't care for what the Jews thought/believed...He was going to accomplish what He came for.

Verse 20
20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
Again, you're faced with having to read about Free Will.
Jesus denounces Chorazin, Bethsaida, Tyre, Sidon.....because they DID NOT REPENT.....sounds like Free Will.

Verse 25
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Jesus was happy that God had taught His ways to the Apostles,,,,the children who were not learned as the Pharisees were.
But they were WILLING to learn....the Pharisees were NOT WILLING to learn.
God does not keep His promises hidden....
It's the same as when Jesus said that we must hate our parents if we want to follow Him....
It's the language of the day...
IF you were correct in your belief...the NT would be replete with conflict.
Hermeneutics Kermos.

​

The Lord God Almighty declares the Sovereignty of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3) for The Lord God Almighty alone is Savior of the world. You believe you are your own savior because of your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) choice - your direct denial of Christ as shown in post #6,580 to which your post is in reply.

Of course one can only see the Kingdom when he is born again!
Can an atheist see the Kingdom of God on earth?

This business of being our own savior unless we're Calvinist in theology
IS OLD Kermos.
IT'S BORING Kermos.

Try to come up with something new.
NO CHRISTIAN believes he saves himself.

Have you ever read Ephesians 2:8-10?
Good.
So have the rest of us.

The Lord God Almighty had the Apostle Peter declare God's preservation of God's chosen persons as well as self-willed persons punishment, all the declaration showing the Power of God:

​

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"​

(2 Peter 2:9-10).​

So you're admitting that persons are:
DARING
SELF-WILLED
THEY DON'T TREMBLE

What do you expect?
I guess God made them this way.

The Lord God Almighty declares man is accountable to God:

​

I tell you that every careless word that men speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 12:36)​

Why would God hold me accountable for speaking careless words when it's GOD THAT PREDESTINATED me to speak them?
Does this sound like a JUST God to you?

​

The Lord God Almighty declares to man his thoughts:

​

behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!​

(Amos 4:13)​

I don't understand the problem here:
Amos 4:13
13 For behold, He who forms mountains and creates the wind And declares to man what are His thoughts, He who makes dawn into darkness And treads on the high places of the earth, The LORD God of hosts is His name.

​

The Lord God Almighty conveyed through the Apostle Paul of people who exalt the creature above the Grand Creator:

​

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"​

(2 Thessalonians 2:11).​

Agreed.
The strong delusion has been sent to Luther, Knox, Calvin and all the modern day preachers/teachers
that blaspheme God.

​

The Lord God Almighty lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way (John 14:6), and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:

​

"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"​

(Philippians 2:13).​

Agreed.
The Holy Spirit was sent to be our helper.
Jesus Himself said we are to abide in Him.

You read into verses what is not there.

​

The Lord God Almighty is glorified with “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21). You self-centeredly glorify yourself with your fake choice.

Believe the Lord God Almighty's Christ!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! HOLY, HOLY, HOLY IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!!

Your RELIGION makes false statements about God.

Christians follow Christ.
Calvinists follow John Calvin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Another post expressing the Power of God! Praise the Lord!

The Free-willian Philosophers deceive by preaching "'if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.' (Ignatius of Antioch, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, ch.5, long version) Before going further, note here that both St. Clement and St. Ignatius were only one generation removed from Jesus himself. Indeed, they were both in direct contact with the Apostles themselves! What does that say if students of the Apostles believed in the importance of genuine free will" (proof post #6,510, a relatively recent post recording a person, @GodsGrace, who does not know the Grace of God).

Plenty of ancient commentary exists that declares God is sovereign in the salvation of man, even among the Free-willian Philosophers deficiently quoted text such as the above, but they are blind to the Word of God and they adulterate the Word of God, so it is no surprise that they adulterate ancient commentary (see en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Epistle_to_the_Magnesians for a side by side comparison of the translation from the text tbat we have of Ignatius' letter according to historians (the shorter recension) versus the modern edited by another person(s)/editor(s) (the longer recension) and search for the text string "not by nature, but by his own choice" to properly compare the ancient text to the modern text - the text string occurs once on the whole document exclusively in the modern translation of the non-Ignatius letter - ESSENTIALLY, THEY TOOK A MODERN COPY THAT AGREES WITH THEIR OWN THOUGHTS INSTEAD OF THAT WHICH IGNATIUS WROTE - see that Ignatius did not use the word "choice" nor hint at "choice" in the shorter recension - in effect, they lie by causing Ignatius to lie - they even used a fabricated letter from Ignatius to try to prove their point - the devil is the father of lies (John 8:44).

Even a little leaven (deviation from the Word of God) leavens the whole loaf (the person adhering to the deviation from the Word of God) (Galatians 5:7-9), and their blue text deviates from Jesus Christ's red text “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE BE TO LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

HOW dumb are calvinists?
Don't they know that in John 15 Jesus is speaking to the APOSTLES?
This really gets tiring.

And the Early Church Fathers believed in free will.
It was not until the gnostic manachaen Augustine of Hippo,,,that John Calvin loved,,,,,that the notion of free will was even QUESTIONED,,,except of course, as I stated, by gnostics.

In a way, of course, even CALVINISTS believe in free will:
Don't you just love the 3rd paragraph in the 1689 Confession...or is it the Westminster? Same Thing.

It states that God decreed EVERY ACTION OF MAN....
BUT
man is still responsible for his sins.

Now there's a god you could depend on!!
His thinking isn't even straight!!
And YOU depend on YOUR GOD for your salvation?

Even John Calvin said you can't be sure of your salvation!
And is it any wonder?!