An Article on free will

[Johann]

Ye did not choose me (ἐξελέξασθε... ἐξελεξάμην are middle, "you chose... I chose... for yourselves or for myself"), but I chose you. I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls; I destined you to accomplish work dear to me and essential to my kingdom. Christ has already told them that he must "go away" from' them to the Father, and that they "cannot follow him now, but afterwards;" and he has also convinced them that, though he go away, he will "come again, and abide with them," and also that "severed" from him they can "do nothing." Consequently when he adds, I appointed you (see 1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 20:28, for similar use of τιθέναι) as my apostles and representatives, to do work in my Name, there is no contradiction in his adding, that ye should go forth, depart into the world with my message and in my Name, as I am "departing" to the Father, to rule over you from a higher and more august position. And bear fruit. A passing reference to the imagery of the first part of the chapter, showing that their "going forth or away" upon this mission would not separate them from his Spirit, or divide the link without which they could bear no fruit at all. The "fruit" may here, in its issues, suggest another class of ideas. In the first case the "fruit" was the "fruit of the Spirit," but here it would seem to be the abiding consequence of the "greater works" which they would be called upon to do. warranted.

This from Utley.

Joh_15:15 Jesus informs the disciples of (1) truths about God and (2) future events. He demonstrates His power so that the disciples will grow in faith and trust.

Jesus shared with His disciples what He had heard from the Father (cf. Joh_3:32; Joh_8:26; Joh_8:40; Joh_12:49; Joh_15:15); they were to pass this on to others (cf. Mat_28:20).
Joh_15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" There are several key grammatical items.

1. both verbs are aorist middle indicative - Jesus, Himself, once and for all chose them (cf. Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:16; Joh_15:19)

2. the strong "alla" (but) adversative

3. the emphatic "ego" or "I" statement

Here is the balance between human response and election. Both are biblical teachings.

God always initiates (cf. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65; Joh_15:16; Joh_15:19), but humans must respond (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16; Joh_15:4; Joh_15:7; Joh_15:9). God's dealings with mankind are always in a covenant relationship ("if. . .then").

The verb "chosen" in this context refers to the Twelve.

The term "chosen" has the connotation of "chosen for service" in the OT and only in the NT does the added concept of "chosen for salvation" come into the semantic range. NT believers are chosen for Christlikeness which is service, selflessness, and sacrifice for the Kingdom of God, the body of Christ, the corporate good. It is a clear demonstration that the self-centeredness of the Fall has been broken.
It is characteristic in John that what Jesus says regarding the Twelve has implications and applications to all believers. They represent the first fruits of discipleship, but their relationship is
1. unique in its eyewitness testimony (i.e., inspiration)
2. applicable to all believers in that Jesus' will for them is His will for all who believe and follow

"appointed you that you would go and bear fruit and that your fruit would remain" These are three present active subjunctives: (1) go; (2) bear fruit; and (3) fruit remains (abides). Believers are on a mission (cf. Mat_28:19-20; Luk_24:46-47; Act_1:8). The theological aspect of the term "appointed" can be seen in Act_20:28; 1Co_12:28; 2Ti_1:11. It was also used of Christ's death on believers' behalf (cf. Joh_10:11; Joh_10:15; Joh_10:17-18; Joh_15:13).

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

This from Utley.

Joh_15:15 Jesus informs the disciples of (1) truths about God and (2) future events. He demonstrates His power so that the disciples will grow in faith and trust.

Jesus shared with His disciples what He had heard from the Father (cf. Joh_3:32; Joh_8:26; Joh_8:40; Joh_12:49; Joh_15:15); they were to pass this on to others (cf. Mat_28:20).
Joh_15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" There are several key grammatical items.

1. both verbs are aorist middle indicative - Jesus, Himself, once and for all chose them (cf. Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:16; Joh_15:19)

2. the strong "alla" (but) adversative

3. the emphatic "ego" or "I" statement

Here is the balance between human response and election. Both are biblical teachings.

God always initiates (cf. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65; Joh_15:16; Joh_15:19), but humans must respond (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16; Joh_15:4; Joh_15:7; Joh_15:9). God's dealings with mankind are always in a covenant relationship ("if. . .then").

The verb "chosen" in this context refers to the Twelve.

The term "chosen" has the connotation of "chosen for service" in the OT and only in the NT does the added concept of "chosen for salvation" come into the semantic range. NT believers are chosen for Christlikeness which is service, selflessness, and sacrifice for the Kingdom of God, the body of Christ, the corporate good. It is a clear demonstration that the self-centeredness of the Fall has been broken.
It is characteristic in John that what Jesus says regarding the Twelve has implications and applications to all believers. They represent the first fruits of discipleship, but their relationship is
1. unique in its eyewitness testimony (i.e., inspiration)
2. applicable to all believers in that Jesus' will for them is His will for all who believe and follow

"appointed you that you would go and bear fruit and that your fruit would remain" These are three present active subjunctives: (1) go; (2) bear fruit; and (3) fruit remains (abides). Believers are on a mission (cf. Mat_28:19-20; Luk_24:46-47; Act_1:8). The theological aspect of the term "appointed" can be seen in Act_20:28; 1Co_12:28; 2Ti_1:11. It was also used of Christ's death on believers' behalf (cf. Joh_10:11; Joh_10:15; Joh_10:17-18; Joh_15:13).

J.

I agree with the above.
I agree that, yes, even here it could include all believers because:
1. God always makes the first move,,,as Utley stated.
2. We are chosen for PURPOSE, as Utley stated.

I do want to say, however, that it's accepted that Jesus explained the parables only to the 12.
He taught the 12 many things that are not written in any of the gospel....they spent over 3 years together.
And In John 15-17 we have to be careful because most of the teachings were addressed to the Apostles.
They can also refer to all believers...like, for instance...love each other as I have loved you....
but when Jesus says I HAVE CHOSEN YOU....He does mean, in this case, specifically the Apostles...

although, yes, God does end up choosing us even to be of the elect....
but based on CONDITIONS...based on our faith...etc.

I think you'll agree.

 

[Kermos]

First Kermos....
I don't know about philosophy.
Perhaps you don't want to speak to me...I do theology.

So,,,the answer to all three bullet points is YES.
God loves all His creatures and would want that all of them be saved.
Now,,,YOU said that God is weak.
This is a common remark among the reformed/calvinist believers.

You believe this because you do not believe in free will.
You see Kermos....it's up to YOU and to ME to know if we want to be saved.

If you could find some scripture that states that God forcefully saves us AGAINST OUR FREE WILL...
then please find it and post it because such a verse DOES NOT EXIST because it is NOT TRUE.

Other than that...
your long posts mean nothing.

Please use scripture.
I'm interested in what GOD teaches...
NOT what the reformed teach.

FOR GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD.....
JESUS DIED FOR EVERYONE
1 John 2:2

You could not agree.
BUT
It's what the word of God states.


Actually Kermos...I DON'T USE STRONG'S.
I've stated to YOU that I trust the translators of the bible.
It's YOU that likes Strong's so I used what YOU like to depend on because
apparently, the bible is not sufficient for you.

John 3:16 is part of a larger dialog about the loving Sovereignty of God with Lord Jesus Christ's opening of "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and His conclusion of “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21); therefore, the believes in John 3:16 is under God's Sovereignty. The Word of God says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) elsewhere.

No Word of God states man was imparted free-will, so you fabricate free-will while at the same time your Free-willian Philosophy belittles the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

You wrote "the answer to all three bullet points is YES", and the third bullet point is:

Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.
​

The Free-willian Philosophy arrives at a deadly misrepresentation of God conclusion in direct contradiction to the Word of God "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

Here are the three bullet points to which you referred that illustrate your Free-willian Philosophy including everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Free-willian Philosophy sums up as:

• God loves Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, so God rewards Daphne with eternal life.
• God loves Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

You wrote "Please use scripture. I'm interested in what GOD teaches...", yet your Free-willian Philosophy post of about 211 words had about 141 words before you quoted the Word of God by you starting midway within Christ's sayings, so you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled Lord Jesus because your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) intentionally deleted and nullified the Word of God preceding the conjunction "for", so here is the preciously loving Word of God:

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life
(John 3:14-16).
​

Lord Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the population of the "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16), so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus. Jesus died specifically for His chosen people.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 without quoting the verse, so here is the blessed writing of John the Apostle "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

Do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?

Beware how you answer because John wrote in the same book "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to us Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.

I'm done with you Kermos.

Interesting, because a mere few days later, you posted to me the following.

Were you at the foot washing?

Were you at the last supper?



Jesus was speaking to His APOSTLES...those He would send out in the Great Commission.



Check out the beginning of all the gospels...

JESUS CHOSE THE APOSTLES....



Not each and every disciple.

The MULTITUDES followed Him....

He spoke to them.



But He also spoke to His Apostles...

just as He explained the parables to THEM ONLY.



John 17:20-26 if FOR ALL BELIEVERS.



This is common knowledge K...and not something that should be debated.



If you wish to be reformed/Calvinist....fine,

but at least try to understand the basics of scripture.





Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

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EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)




Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers



(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.—Comp. Luke 6:12 et seq., and in this Gospel John 6:70; John 13:18. The thought of His love for them, which had exalted them from the position of slaves to friends, from fishermen to Apostles, is made to remind them again (John 15:17) of the duty of love to each other. In John 15:20 he reminds them of the words which accompanied His own act of humility in washing their feet (John 13:15-16). The chiefest Apostle owed all to His gift and election, and should be ready to sacrifice all for his brethren, as He Himself was.
And ordained you.—The word “ordained” has acquired a special sense in modern English which is here misleading, and it will be better, therefore, to read appointed.
That ye should go and bring forth fruit.—Comp. Matthew 13:44; Matthew 18:15; Matthew 19:21, for the idea of going away and doing something. It implies here the activity of the Apostles as distinct from that of Christ. Each one as a branch ever joined to Christ was to grow away from Him in the development of his own work, and was to bring forth his own fruit. The margin compares Matthew 28:19, probably, with the thought of their fulfilling the Apostle’s missionary work. This view has been commonly adopted, but it gives to the word “go’” a fulness of meaning which is scarcely


-----------------------------------------------------------------



. Ye did not choose me (ἐξελέξασθε... ἐξελεξάμην are middle, "you chose... I chose... for yourselves or for myself"), but I chose you. I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls; I destined you to accomplish work dear to me and essential to my kingdom. Christ has already told them that he must "go away" from' them to the Father, and that they "cannot follow him now, but afterwards;" and he has also convinced them that, though he go away, he will "come again, and abide with them," and also that "severed" from him they can "do nothing." Consequently when he adds, I appointed you (see 1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 20:28, for similar use of τιθέναι) as my apostles and representatives, to do work in my Name, there is no contradiction in his adding, that ye should go forth, depart into the world with my message and in my Name, as I am "departing" to the Father, to rule over you from a higher and more august position. And bear fruit. A passing reference to the imagery of the first part of the chapter, showing that their "going forth or away" upon this mission would not separate them from his Spirit, or divide the link without which they could bear no fruit at all. The "fruit" may here, in its issues, suggest another class of ideas. In the first case the "fruit" was the "fruit of the Spirit," but here it would seem to be the abiding consequence of the "greater works" which they would be called upon to do. warranted.


source: biblehub commentary

Do you have trouble with your yes being yes and your no being no?

Oh, yes, you hypocritically wrote "your long posts mean nothing", but afterward you wrote a large post.

We children of God are the beneficiaries of God working God's love in us Christians, for the Christ of us Christians says “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless God causes the love.

We Christians follow and truly love Christ our Leader, Lord, and, God.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO SAVES THE WORLD!!!

 

[civic]

John 3:16 is part of a larger dialog about the loving Sovereignty of God with Lord Jesus Christ's opening of "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and His conclusion of “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21); therefore, the believes in John 3:16 is under God's Sovereignty. The Word of God says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) elsewhere.

No Word of God states man was imparted free-will, so you fabricate free-will while at the same time your Free-willian Philosophy belittles the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

You wrote "the answer to all three bullet points is YES", and the third bullet point is:

​

Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.​

​

The Free-willian Philosophy arrives at a deadly misrepresentation of God conclusion in direct contradiction to the Word of God "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

Here are the three bullet points to which you referred that illustrate your Free-willian Philosophy including everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Free-willian Philosophy sums up as:

• God loves Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, so God rewards Daphne with eternal life.
• God loves Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes Fred with eternal death.
• Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

You wrote "Please use scripture. I'm interested in what GOD teaches...", yet your Free-willian Philosophy post of about 211 words had about 141 words before you quoted the Word of God by you starting midway within Christ's sayings, so you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled Lord Jesus because your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) intentionally deleted and nullified the Word of God preceding the conjunction "for", so here is the preciously loving Word of God:

​

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life​

(John 3:14-16).​

​

Lord Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the population of the "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16), so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus. Jesus died specifically for His chosen people.

You brought up 1 John 2:2 without quoting the verse, so here is the blessed writing of John the Apostle "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

Do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?

Beware how you answer because John wrote in the same book "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to us Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.



Interesting, because a mere few days later, you posted to me the following.



Do you have trouble with your yes being yes and your no being no?

Oh, yes, you hypocritically wrote "your long posts mean nothing", but afterward you wrote a large post.

We children of God are the beneficiaries of God working God's love in us Christians, for the Christ of us Christians says “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless God causes the love.

We Christians follow and truly love Christ our Leader, Lord, and, God.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO SAVES THE WORLD!!!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless you choose to love Him by your own free will.

hope this helps !!!

 

[GodsGrace]

John 3:16 is part of a larger dialog about the loving Sovereignty of God with Lord Jesus Christ's opening of "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and His conclusion of “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21); therefore, the believes in John 3:16 is under God's Sovereignty. The Word of God says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) elsewhere.

No Word of God states man was imparted free-will, so you fabricate free-will while at the same time your Free-willian Philosophy belittles the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

You yourself just stated above "HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH".....
If I practice something...anything...does that mean I am free to either practice it or not practice it?

If GOD is predestinating everything...
WHY use the word PRACTICE in any sentence?

You also stated "HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT".
If I could come to something...it means I could move myself...
Does this denote free will?

I'd say yes to both.

Did Adam have free will?
God gave Adam a command.
WHY give a command if GOD is going to determine the outcome?
God told Adam not to eat of a tree.....IF he did something would happen.
This denotes free will.

The bible speaks of WILLINGNESS to do something or other.
Does my being willing denote free will?

I say yes.

I'll be happy to post scripture...but It would have to wait till the morning.

You wrote "the answer to all three bullet points is YES", and the third bullet point is:

​

Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.​

​

The Free-willian Philosophy arrives at a deadly misrepresentation of God conclusion in direct contradiction to the Word of God "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

I don't understand what this has to do with free will.

Here are the three bullet points to which you referred that illustrate your Free-willian Philosophy including everybody everywhere (believer and unbeliever considering entire lifetimes) in the scope of the word "world" in John 3:16, so your Free-willian Philosophy sums up as:

• God loves Daphne of the world before and after Daphne hears of Christ. Daphne chose to love/believe in Christ, so God rewards Daphne with eternal life.

True. God loves all of His creation...why would God make something He doesn't like?
Would YOU buy a car you don't like?
Would YOU make a garden you don't like?
OF COURSE God liked what He made....
He said it was GOOD or VERY GOOD...
God like ALL of His creation...especially man whom He said was VERY GOOD.

Daphne accepted God's conditions for salvation.
Daphne is saved.

• God loves Fred of the world before and after Fred hears of Christ. Fred chose not to love/believe in Christ, so God punishes Fred with eternal death.

Yes....God loves Fred and would want that Fred be saved. 2 Timothy 2:4
Fred chose not to accept God's free gift of faith and salvation.
Fred is lost.
Fred is, actually, punishing himself because God gives to everyone the same choice to be saved.
Fred CHOSE not to be saved.

• Conclusion: the Love of God is so very weak that people like Fred draw the Love of God to burn in hell for eternity according to your Free-willian Philosophy.

You have difficulty with this because you don't believe in free will.
Not believing the bible causes conflict within scripture.
There can be no conflict in scripture.
Both Daphne and Fred had the free will opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior...
one chose yes and one chose no.

You wrote "Please use scripture. I'm interested in what GOD teaches...", yet your Free-willian Philosophy post of about 211 words had about 141 words before you quoted the Word of God by you starting midway within Christ's sayings, so you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled Lord Jesus because your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) intentionally deleted and nullified the Word of God preceding the conjunction "for", so here is the preciously loving Word of God:

​

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life​

(John 3:14-16).​

I don't know what you're talking about Kermos.
You speak about the serpent all the time and I don't know why.

The word FOR means BECAUSE.
Everyone knows this so I don't know why it present a problem.

Here is what it says:
EVERYONE BELIEVING IN HIM WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE BECAUSE GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL BE SAVED.

​

Lord Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the population of the "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16), so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus. Jesus died specifically for His chosen people.

I've addressed this.
John 3:16 is PRESCRIPTIVE....it prescribes the prescription for salvation.

If John 3:16 were the only verse, you could debate this...but it's not.
I've already gone through this.....
BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. ROMANS
BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. ACTS
FAITH COME BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD. ROMANS

There are so many more...the above should be sufficient when added to John 3:16

You brought up 1 John 2:2 without quoting the verse, so here is the blessed writing of John the Apostle "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

Do you believe that you are always a part of the whole world wherever Holy Spirit inspired John wrote the whole world?

Yes. Of course. Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD.
Did satan not take the whole world captive after the fall?
And so Jesus forgives the sins of the whole world...past, present, and future.
IF we believe and ask forgiveness.

The problem is this Kermos: You believe God does everything and man does nothing...
this makes scripture difficult to understand so the reformed twist it around to mean something it does not.

When John states THE WHOLE WORLD it must be corraborated by other verses....
For John 3:16 it is.

Beware how you answer because John wrote in the same book "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

Your verse:
1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
What is the problem?
Have you not heard of the Prince of the Air?

Revelation 12:19
19And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—


1 Peter 5:8
8Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.


2 Corinthians 4:4
4In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Ephesians 2:2
22 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to us Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.

My goodness!
Of course!

Interesting, because a mere few days later, you posted to me the following.



Do you have trouble with your yes being yes and your no being no?

Oh, yes, you hypocritically wrote "your long posts mean nothing", but afterward you wrote a large post.

Guess I was replying to a long post....like right now.

We children of God are the beneficiaries of God working God's love in us Christians, for the Christ of us Christians says “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34).

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).

I agree.

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.

Agreed.

You do not follow and truly love Christ unless God causes the love.

Would YOU love a woman that you have to drug in order for her to love you?
I don't think so.

Even more for God...who CREATED love.

We Christians follow and truly love Christ our Leader, Lord, and, God.

Of course.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

You could say this in every post Kermos.
But you still have NOT proven it with scripture.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO SAVES THE WORLD!!!

All Christians believe in God's sovereignty.
But we believe that God is SO SOVEREIGN that He is not afraid to give His creatures free will.

It's kind of like buying a dog and then keeping him tied up all the time because you're afraid he'll run away. No free will.
THIS IS YOUR GOD.

Or a dog that loves his master and chooses to stay with his master and love his master. Free will.
THIS IS MY GOD.

 

[civic]

You yourself just stated above "HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH".....
If I practice something...anything...does that mean I am free to either practice it or not practice it?

If GOD is predestinating everything...
WHY use the word PRACTICE in any sentence?

You also stated "HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT".
If I could come to something...it means I could move myself...
Does this denote free will?

I'd say yes to both.

Did Adam have free will?
God gave Adam a command.
WHY give a command if GOD is going to determine the outcome?
God told Adam not to eat of a tree.....IF he did something would happen.
This denotes free will.

The bible speaks of WILLINGNESS to do something or other.
Does my being willing denote free will?

I say yes.

I'll be happy to post scripture...but It would have to wait till the morning.


I don't understand what this has to do with free will.


True. God loves all of His creation...why would God make something He doesn't like?
Would YOU buy a car you don't like?
Would YOU make a garden you don't like?
OF COURSE God liked what He made....
He said it was GOOD or VERY GOOD...
God like ALL of His creation...especially man whom He said was VERY GOOD.

Daphne accepted God's conditions for salvation.
Daphne is saved.

Yes....God loves Fred and would want that Fred be saved. 2 Timothy 2:4
Fred chose not to accept God's free gift of faith and salvation.
Fred is lost.
Fred is, actually, punishing himself because God gives to everyone the same choice to be saved.
Fred CHOSE not to be saved.


You have difficulty with this because you don't believe in free will.
Not believing the bible causes conflict within scripture.
There can be no conflict in scripture.
Both Daphne and Fred had the free will opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior...
one chose yes and one chose no.


I don't know what you're talking about Kermos.
You speak about the serpent all the time and I don't know why.

The word FOR means BECAUSE.
Everyone knows this so I don't know why it present a problem.

Here is what it says:
EVERYONE BELIEVING IN HIM WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE BECAUSE GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL BE SAVED.


I've addressed this.
John 3:16 is PRESCRIPTIVE....it prescribes the prescription for salvation.

If John 3:16 were the only verse, you could debate this...but it's not.
I've already gone through this.....
BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. ROMANS
BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. ACTS
FAITH COME BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD. ROMANS

There are so many more...the above should be sufficient when added to John 3:16

Yes. Of course. Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD.
Did satan not take the whole world captive after the fall?
And so Jesus forgives the sins of the whole world...past, present, and future.
IF we believe and ask forgiveness.

The problem is this Kermos: You believe God does everything and man does nothing...
this makes scripture difficult to understand so the reformed twist it around to mean something it does not.

When John states THE WHOLE WORLD it must be corraborated by other verses....
For John 3:16 it is.

Your verse:
1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
What is the problem?
Have you not heard of the Prince of the Air?

Revelation 12:19
19And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—


1 Peter 5:8
8Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.


2 Corinthians 4:4
4In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Ephesians 2:2
22 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

My goodness!
Of course!

Guess I was replying to a long post....like right now.


I agree.

Agreed.

Would YOU love a woman that you have to drug in order for her to love you?
I don't think so.

Even more for God...who CREATED love.

Of course.


You could say this in every post Kermos.
But you still have NOT proven it with scripture.


All Christians believe in God's sovereignty.
But we believe that God is SO SOVEREIGN that He is not afraid to give His creatures free will.

It's kind of like buying a dog and then keeping him tied up all the time because you're afraid he'll run away. No free will.
THIS IS YOUR GOD.

Or a dog that loves his master and chooses to stay with his master and love his master. Free will.
THIS IS MY GOD.

ditto

 

[Kermos]

YES. YOU do. For to not understand is the same as ignore. and certainly to deny what was said is to totally ignore.


The Pharisees’ question... “Who do you think you are?”.


Jesus replies with..." ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’


The Pharisees scoff at this with...‘You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham!’???????????????


Jesus comes back with ..... ' I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!’


So the Jews set about to stone him for the reason that you deny. I wont confuse you any more for you have shown yourself to not even be

of the caliber of a Pharisee, for they knew.... and you do not.


What is this I am that Jesus mentions here.... I am not going to embellish as you are so often wont to do.


Do you remember when Moses was talking to God in Exodus 3..... God said to Moses. (ARE YOU GOING TO ARGUE THAT GOD DID NOT TALK TO MOSES... THAT IT WAS SOME OTHER gOD?)


Reminder... After the fall of man in Genesis, mankind no longer had direct access to God, and even the people of Israel only knew certain aspects of their Creator. In Exodus, God states His own name for the first time: “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’ And He said, ‘Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:14).


Now @Kermos do you have (Moderators... I am reporting myself because I am going to say something here and if you want to redact it... fine, but I do hope @Kermos reads this reply before you do. Thanks you... I regard myself as warned)


continuing... @ Kermos. Do you have the cojones to once again suggest God, the Heavenly Father is a liar?

Please continue.

So Jesus tells the Pharisees "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!"


The Father is I AM. Jesus is IAM....... In the beginning and before Yahweh was I AM and the WORD who became Jesus

was I AM.


Is that clear.

Hmm, you wrote "before Yahweh was I AM" about Jesus, so you convey that you believe Jesus existed before Yahweh, yet Jesus is Yahweh. Your Free-willian Philosophy is fatally fraudulent. The Father is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is One!" (Deuteronomy 6:4), so Yahweh always exists as three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being the One True God. All glory to Yahweh God!

Lord Jesus Christ is the Great Holy "I AM" (John 8:58, Exodus 3:14), and there is only One I AM! And this includes "I AM Sovereign", but when you believe "apart from Jesus, I chose Jesus so Jesus must profit me with salvation", then you believe that you are sovereign - you exalt yourself to "I am sovereign" in your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21).

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Behold, you believe "I am sovereign above I AM", and your belief is reminiscent of "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14).

Now, let's continue with the highly related topic that we were engaged in discussing before you tried to diverge. Do try to stay on topic, MTMattie.

All authority was give to Jesus in heaven and on earth. THis is true.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, This is Jesus instucting his disciples ,

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?t...-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html
The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

It was common, in the first century, for a Jewish rabbi to have and lead disciples, who were pupils or students that were so devoted to their leader that they accepted their teaching and adhered to their lifestyle. They not only learned information, but they walked with their teacher in order to become like them. And they taught the recruited others to follow in the diciples footstwps of teaching and spreading the word.

More than that, true disciples assisted their leaders in spreading their mission. One major sign of maturity in a disciple is a willingness to help others follow. The main way that Jesus began the biggest movement in human history (Christianity) was by calling, developing, and sending out a handful of unqualified, untrained, and unlikely disciples.

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?t...-did-jesus-mean-to-go-and-make-disciples.html

You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding, again, and you diverged from the specific point that the Christ of us Christians says "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20) which includes the Christ's precious saying of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all disciples (Matthew 28:18-20).

Listen about the treasure that is the Word of God "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (The Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:48), and notice He didn't say "the commentary is what will judge him at the last day".

The point was very clear in the post to which you replied, so I pose your words right back at you, "Can you read? You do not understand." as recorded in post #6,525.

The Great Commission is profound regarding the Way (John 14:6) in many aspects, and we Christians understand because of the Word of God (John 1:14). I'm listening as my Master speaks:

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:18-20)
​

Thank You, Father of Heaven and Earth, for the love you show the world with revealing the Word of God!

God has me contrast your word against the Word of God, here:

the word of MTMattie		The Word of God
John 15 have nothing to do with you or me (MTMattie, proof post #6,395).		teaching them to observe all that I commanded you (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20).

You vehemently believe that you are not a friend of Jesus thus making yourself an enemy of Jesus because your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me" (proof post #6,395) thus you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16). I reject your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me". Lord Jesus, you chose me as your friend, and I thank you, my Lord and Savior! King Jesus, You know I am weak, but You are strong!

You conveyed that you put the Word of God, which our loving Holy Father in Heaven caused me to post, on your ignore in your very public prayer that you posted (proof post #6,518). Putting the Word of God on ignore is not the will of Christ's Father in Heaven. This same Christ of us Christians declares "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). We Christians do not put the Christ's sayings on ignore.

Now, in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-proclaimed ignorance, you run to non-biblical sources because the Word of God is not enough for you! As an aside, the words you composed at the conclusion of your post "All of these commentaries show that only the disciples (apostles) were chosen. Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do. They did not come knocking on his door looking for a job. Jesus chose them...." is the only place in your whole post that states "only the disciples (apostles)" - not a single commentary author as you quoted states "only the disciples (apostles)".

Expanding on the aside, with your specific quote portion "Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do", you remove Lord Jesus from choosing disciples to be His friends, yet your Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary contains "Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to", so you give the appearance of failing to read your own commentary (you quote it, you own it).

Your own commentary includes I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls (see your Pulpit Commentary). You confusedly argue against yourself, yet God is not a God of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Word of God issues these wonderful blessings to all believers in all time:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

And I am forevermore thankful to Lord Jesus Christ!

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God like "you apostles only did not choose Me, but I chose exclusively you apostles", and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Again, you have made it very clear with your amplification of "John 15:16 WAS NEVER MEANT FOR ALL PEOPLE" that you deny being a friend of Lord Jesus because you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) as recorded in post #6,407.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY LIVING WORD OF GOD!!!

 

[civic]

Hmm, you wrote "before Yahweh was I AM" about Jesus, so you convey that you believe Jesus existed before Yahweh, yet Jesus is Yahweh. Your Free-willian Philosophy is fatally fraudulent. The Father is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is One!" (Deuteronomy 6:4), so Yahweh always exists as three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being the One True God. All glory to Yahweh God!

Lord Jesus Christ is the Great Holy "I AM" (John 8:58, Exodus 3:14), and there is only One I AM! And this includes "I AM Sovereign", but when you believe "apart from Jesus, I chose Jesus so Jesus must profit me with salvation", then you believe that you are sovereign - you exalt yourself to "I am sovereign" in your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21).

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Behold, you believe "I am sovereign above I AM", and your belief is reminiscent of "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14).

Now, let's continue with the highly related topic that we were engaged in discussing before you tried to diverge. Do try to stay on topic, MTMattie.



You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding, again, and you diverged from the specific point that the Christ of us Christians says "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20) which includes the Christ's precious saying of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all disciples (Matthew 28:18-20).

Listen about the treasure that is the Word of God "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (The Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:48), and notice He didn't say "the commentary is what will judge him at the last day".

The point was very clear in the post to which you replied, so I pose your words right back at you, "Can you read? You do not understand." as recorded in post #6,525.

The Great Commission is profound regarding the Way (John 14:6) in many aspects, and we Christians understand because of the Word of God (John 1:14). I'm listening as my Master speaks:

​

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”​

​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:18-20)​

​

Thank You, Father of Heaven and Earth, for the love you show the world with revealing the Word of God!

God has me contrast your word against the Word of God, here:

the word of MTMattie		The Word of God
John 15 have nothing to do with you or me (MTMattie, proof post #6,395).		teaching them to observe all that I commanded you (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 28/20).

You vehemently believe that you are not a friend of Jesus thus making yourself an enemy of Jesus because your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me" (proof post #6,395) thus you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16). I reject your "John 15 have nothing to do with you or me". Lord Jesus, you chose me as your friend, and I thank you, my Lord and Savior! King Jesus, You know I am weak, but You are strong!

You conveyed that you put the Word of God, which our loving Holy Father in Heaven caused me to post, on your ignore in your very public prayer that you posted (proof post #6,518). Putting the Word of God on ignore is not the will of Christ's Father in Heaven. This same Christ of us Christians declares "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48). We Christians do not put the Christ's sayings on ignore.

Now, in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-proclaimed ignorance, you run to non-biblical sources because the Word of God is not enough for you! As an aside, the words you composed at the conclusion of your post "All of these commentaries show that only the disciples (apostles) were chosen. Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do. They did not come knocking on his door looking for a job. Jesus chose them...." is the only place in your whole post that states "only the disciples (apostles)" - not a single commentary author as you quoted states "only the disciples (apostles)".

Expanding on the aside, with your specific quote portion "Jesus had to have them for they had a job to do", you remove Lord Jesus from choosing disciples to be His friends, yet your Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary contains "Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to", so you give the appearance of failing to read your own commentary (you quote it, you own it).

Your own commentary includes I selected you as individuals, not excluding thereby a gracious choice of other souls (see your Pulpit Commentary). You confusedly argue against yourself, yet God is not a God of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

The Word of God issues these wonderful blessings to all believers in all time:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

And I am forevermore thankful to Lord Jesus Christ!

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God like "you apostles only did not choose Me, but I chose exclusively you apostles", and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Again, you have made it very clear with your amplification of "John 15:16 WAS NEVER MEANT FOR ALL PEOPLE" that you deny being a friend of Lord Jesus because you self-willingly (2 Peter 2:9-10) exclude yourself from "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) as recorded in post #6,407.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE HOLY LIVING WORD OF GOD!!!

context kills your fatalistic view since Jesus is exclusively talking to the 12 not everyone.


Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

next fallacy filled with humanistic, fatalistic, gobblygook. you make void the word of God by your traditions of men- is fatalism. you are exactly like the pharisees Jesus rebuked many times in the gospels. See Matthew 23 to see how He views your false claims.

hope this helps !!!

 

[MTMattie]

Hmm, you wrote "before Yahweh was I AM" about Jesus, so you convey that you believe Jesus existed before Yahweh, yet Jesus is Yahweh. Your Free-willian Philosophy is fatally fraudulent. The Father is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is One!" (Deuteronomy 6:4), so Yahweh always exists as three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being the One True God. All glory to Yahweh God!

I admit to wording that awkwardly. My apologies.

I wrote:
The Father is I AM. Jesus is IAM....... In the beginning and before Yahweh was I AM and the WORD who became Jesus

was I AM.

I left off a comma.

It should read

The Father is I AM. Jesus is IAM....... In the beginning and before, (added comma) Yahweh was I AM and the WORD who became Jesus

was I AM.

Congratulations.... You have got the brass ring for being correct

"so Yahweh always exists as three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being the One True God. All glory to Yahweh God!"

 

[Kermos]

You are correct.

I subscribed to this forum with my God given free will.

And I was wondering (since you tagged me) if I should respond, I wasn't in the mood, but as you can see I did after all, it was a close call.

Maybe after a cup of coffee I would not have.

Free will goes everywhere my friend, you did not have to tag me.

But since you believe you don't have free will, who told you to tag me?

or maybe quoting your exact words - You presented commentary as the basis of your understanding,

Be well.

You self-described yourself as a free-will person, yet there is no such thing as a human will that is free from the human to whom the will is attached; therefore, Biblically, you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) daringly reviles God's Majesty (2 Peter 2:9-10) through slaughtering the Word of God out of the post which God caused me to make, so your Free-willian Philosophy adheres to the nullification of the Word of God.

You described the post that God caused me to make as "commentary" which indicates non-authoritative Biblically speaking, yet I proclaimed the Word of God "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you" (Lord Christ, Matthew 28:20) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus, John 15:16) in the same paragraph in Christ, but you diced out these immediate quotations of the Word of God; therefore, free-willian you labeled the Word of God as your "commentary" by which you demote the Word of God to non-authoritative.

So, you subscribed to this forum apart from Christ because you wrote "I subscribed to this forum with my God given free will".

I subscribed to this forum according to the Will of God because my Savior Jesus says “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21).

God caused me to tag you because you need to read the Word of God, and God caused me to tag you because your heartfelt "Like" of MTMattie's post that publicly demonstrates you heartfelt agreement with MTMattie's error.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

To @civic and @MTMattie, also, because of your "Like"/agreement of @ProDeo's post.

You express your enthusiastic agreement with your fellow free-willian philosophers.

Be separate from them (2 Corinthians 6:17).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER, THE SPIRIT, THE SON IN ONE!!!

 

[MTMattie]

You self-described yourself as a free-will person, yet there is no such thing as a human will that is free from the human to whom the will is attached; therefore, Biblically, you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) daringly reviles God's Majesty (2 Peter 2:9-10) through slaughtering the Word of God out of the post which God caused me to make, so your Free-willian Philosophy adheres to the nullification of the Word of God.

You described the post that God caused me to make as "commentary" which indicates non-authoritative Biblically speaking, yet I proclaimed the Word of God "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you" (Lord Christ, Matthew 28:20) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus, John 15:16) in the same paragraph in Christ, but you diced out these immediate quotations of the Word of God; therefore, free-willian you labeled the Word of God as your "commentary" by which you demote the Word of God to non-authoritative.

So, you subscribed to this forum apart from Christ because you wrote "I subscribed to this forum with my God given free will".

I subscribed to this forum according to the Will of God because my Savior Jesus says “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21).

God caused me to tag you because you need to read the Word of God, and God caused me to tag you because your heartfelt "Like" of MTMattie's post that publicly demonstrates you heartfelt agreement with MTMattie's error.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

To @civic and @MTMattie, also, because of your "Like"/agreement of @ProDeo's post.

You express your enthusiastic agreement with your fellow free-willian philosophers.

Be separate from them (2 Corinthians 6:17).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER, THE SPIRIT, THE SON IN ONE!!!

I did not write what I am going to post here. Ironically it will be my 2nd posting of the day of this article. But since I cannot improve on what is here

As a free will believer this is how most of my beliefs lay.... because of the way I was raised, both by family teachings and church teachings...personally I would never have had doubts in Jesus and what He did for us, and this goes back to pre-grade school.​

The Proverb 22:6 states it loud and clear. Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Since you will disagree with the content.... I suggest you look up the author and take it up with him. That is, if you feel up to the task of educating
someone well versed on the subject.

To learn more about his ministry please visit clarencehaynes.com.
I have bolded or color changed certain points for emphasis.

What Does the Bible Really Say about Predestination? - Topical Studies

We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though pre...

www.biblestudytools.com

What Does the Bible Really Say about Predestination? - Topical Studies​

We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though pre...

www.biblestudytools.com

Clarence L. Haynes Jr.
Contributing Writer
UpdatedOctober 18, 2024

Throughout the history of the church, there has been debate about predestination. This doctrine of predestination, which is most often related to salvation, means that God in his ultimate sovereignty has predetermined certain individuals to receive salvation while condemning others. In considering this topic, how does the idea of predestination mesh with God’s sovereignty, man’s free will, and salvation?

There are two main camps in this debate which we will consider, along with some passages to contemplate regarding predestination.
We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though predestination was not always connected to salvation.

Noah was a righteous man, and God chose him to build the ark and rescue his family while the rest of the world was destroyed. God chose Abraham and built a nation through his lineage. God also chose David while he was a young shepherd to be the king of Israel. This was also true of Moses, Gideon, Jonah, and many others.

Here are some verses that speak to predestination in the Old Testament:

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6).

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5).

In the Old Testament, many were chosen to fulfill God’s will, which he had purposed in advance for them to complete. In the New Testament, predestination is primarily associated with salvation, which forces us to consider one of the most important questions in relationship to predestination.
Belief in Jesus is critical to obtaining salvation; without belief in Jesus, no one can be saved. We also know that we come to this place of belief as God draws us to him. This means God plays a role in calling people to him and giving them the opportunity to put their trust and faith in him. However, belief is still a choice, so how does this align with the doctrine of predestination? If man’s eternal destiny is predetermined by God, then what role does belief even play if it will not change what God has already determined? The answer to this question depends on how you view predestination.

I mentioned earlier there are two major positions on predestination. One position is known as unconditional election, which means God chooses people by his will and human actions or decisions have nothing to do with it. This position is consistent with Calvinism. For those who hold this position, they may use verses like these to support it:

“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:4-5).

“In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Ephesians 1:11).

The other position states that God’s predestination is based on his foreknowledge. Since God is all-knowing, he knows in advance who will choose to receive Christ or reject him. Because he has this knowledge, then he will predestine those who he knows will choose him to an eternity in heaven and to hell for those who don’t. However, man still has the free will to make this decision. This is consistent with Arminianism. This verse in Romans seems to support this position.

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).
The passages in Romans reveals that God predestines those he knows will receive him. This brings his foreknowledge to the center of the conversation. I believe we should consider every mention of predestination in the Bible, with the acknowledgment that God already knows in advance who will receive Christ and choose the path of salvation, and who will reject it. You cannot have a conversation about predestination without recognizing this truth.


The reason God’s foreknowledge matters is that without it, predestination seems unjust because it removes man’s ability to choose and therefore takes away man’s free will. How can God judge you for rejecting Christ and his plan of salvation if you never had a choice in the matter? While no one is worthy of salvation, God has left the choice to receive and follow him up to us, which means we receive either eternal life or eternal condemnation, but we decide which one we want.

Romans 10:13 tells us that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. This means that everyone who looks to God for salvation will find it. The act of calling is a response to God drawing you, but you can still decide how you will respond to that call.
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).
This verse forces us to consider predestination from another perspective, one that I believe reinforces the idea that God does not supersede our ability to choose. The truth this verse tells us is God does not want anyone to perish because his desire is for everyone to come to repentance. If God wants everyone to come to repentance, then why not just predestine everyone to do that?

The only logical conclusion, in my opinion, is while he wants everyone to come to repentance, he does not force everyone to come to repentance. He allows us to choose if we will repent and if we will believe. As much as he loves mankind, he will not override man’s will and allows people the freedom to choose the direction they will walk in. This too has been consistent throughout Scripture.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:15).

In God’s love and mercy, he will give you enough evidence to make that decision, but the decision you choose he will leave up to you.

The debate and discussion about predestination will not end any time soon. Certainly, my one article will not solve this debate. So, what should be our focus: predestination or preaching?

Regardless of your position on predestination, we have a responsibility to share this gospel with other people. It’s not for us to determine who will believe and who won’t – we have no control over that. However, we can control whether we share this truth or not. Let’s focus on doing what God has called us to do and let him deal with everything else. Our job is to bring the good news, not figure out who will receive it.




“How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!’” (Romans 10:14-15).

 

[civic]

I did not write what I am going to post here. Ironically it will be my 2nd posting of the day of this article. But since I cannot improve on what is here

As a free will believer this is how most of my beliefs lay.... because of the way I was raised, both by family teachings and church teachings...personally I would never have had doubts in Jesus and what He did for us, and this goes back to pre-grade school.​

The Proverb 22:6 states it loud and clear. Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Since you will disagree with the content.... I suggest you look up the author and take it up with him. That is, if you feel up to the task of educating
someone well versed on the subject.

To learn more about his ministry please visit clarencehaynes.com.
I have bolded or color changed certain points for emphasis.

What Does the Bible Really Say about Predestination? - Topical Studies

We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though pre...

www.biblestudytools.com

What Does the Bible Really Say about Predestination? - Topical Studies​

We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though pre...

www.biblestudytools.com

Clarence L. Haynes Jr.
Contributing Writer
UpdatedOctober 18, 2024

Throughout the history of the church, there has been debate about predestination. This doctrine of predestination, which is most often related to salvation, means that God in his ultimate sovereignty has predetermined certain individuals to receive salvation while condemning others. In considering this topic, how does the idea of predestination mesh with God’s sovereignty, man’s free will, and salvation?

There are two main camps in this debate which we will consider, along with some passages to contemplate regarding predestination.
We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though predestination was not always connected to salvation.

Noah was a righteous man, and God chose him to build the ark and rescue his family while the rest of the world was destroyed. God chose Abraham and built a nation through his lineage. God also chose David while he was a young shepherd to be the king of Israel. This was also true of Moses, Gideon, Jonah, and many others.

Here are some verses that speak to predestination in the Old Testament:

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6).

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5).

In the Old Testament, many were chosen to fulfill God’s will, which he had purposed in advance for them to complete. In the New Testament, predestination is primarily associated with salvation, which forces us to consider one of the most important questions in relationship to predestination.
Belief in Jesus is critical to obtaining salvation; without belief in Jesus, no one can be saved. We also know that we come to this place of belief as God draws us to him. This means God plays a role in calling people to him and giving them the opportunity to put their trust and faith in him. However, belief is still a choice, so how does this align with the doctrine of predestination? If man’s eternal destiny is predetermined by God, then what role does belief even play if it will not change what God has already determined? The answer to this question depends on how you view predestination.

I mentioned earlier there are two major positions on predestination. One position is known as unconditional election, which means God chooses people by his will and human actions or decisions have nothing to do with it. This position is consistent with Calvinism. For those who hold this position, they may use verses like these to support it:

“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:4-5).

“In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Ephesians 1:11).

The other position states that God’s predestination is based on his foreknowledge. Since God is all-knowing, he knows in advance who will choose to receive Christ or reject him. Because he has this knowledge, then he will predestine those who he knows will choose him to an eternity in heaven and to hell for those who don’t. However, man still has the free will to make this decision. This is consistent with Arminianism. This verse in Romans seems to support this position.

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).
The passages in Romans reveals that God predestines those he knows will receive him. This brings his foreknowledge to the center of the conversation. I believe we should consider every mention of predestination in the Bible, with the acknowledgment that God already knows in advance who will receive Christ and choose the path of salvation, and who will reject it. You cannot have a conversation about predestination without recognizing this truth.


The reason God’s foreknowledge matters is that without it, predestination seems unjust because it removes man’s ability to choose and therefore takes away man’s free will. How can God judge you for rejecting Christ and his plan of salvation if you never had a choice in the matter? While no one is worthy of salvation, God has left the choice to receive and follow him up to us, which means we receive either eternal life or eternal condemnation, but we decide which one we want.

Romans 10:13 tells us that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. This means that everyone who looks to God for salvation will find it. The act of calling is a response to God drawing you, but you can still decide how you will respond to that call.
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).
This verse forces us to consider predestination from another perspective, one that I believe reinforces the idea that God does not supersede our ability to choose. The truth this verse tells us is God does not want anyone to perish because his desire is for everyone to come to repentance. If God wants everyone to come to repentance, then why not just predestine everyone to do that?

The only logical conclusion, in my opinion, is while he wants everyone to come to repentance, he does not force everyone to come to repentance. He allows us to choose if we will repent and if we will believe. As much as he loves mankind, he will not override man’s will and allows people the freedom to choose the direction they will walk in. This too has been consistent throughout Scripture.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:15).

In God’s love and mercy, he will give you enough evidence to make that decision, but the decision you choose he will leave up to you.

The debate and discussion about predestination will not end any time soon. Certainly, my one article will not solve this debate. So, what should be our focus: predestination or preaching?

Regardless of your position on predestination, we have a responsibility to share this gospel with other people. It’s not for us to determine who will believe and who won’t – we have no control over that. However, we can control whether we share this truth or not. Let’s focus on doing what God has called us to do and let him deal with everything else. Our job is to bring the good news, not figure out who will receive it.




“How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!’” (Romans 10:14-15).

yes fatalism ( @Kermos ) beliefs is a false religious system and in no way resembles the real God of the Bible.

 

[ProDeo]

God caused me to tag you because you need to read the Word of God, and God caused me to tag you because your heartfelt "Like" of MTMattie's post that publicly demonstrates you heartfelt agreement with MTMattie's error.

@Kermos

I tag you in return with my God given free will, I did not receive a word from God.

But following your belief that I don't have free will you must believe I had no choice to tag you in return.

How can that be true, it can't.

Instead let's reason,

Jes 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD:

God is telling you to think and reason with your God given mind and make sane decisions.

Matt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Think my friend, reason my friend.

Be blessed.

 

[MTMattie]

You self-described yourself as a free-will person, yet there is no such thing as a human will that is free from the human to whom the will is attached; therefore, Biblically, you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) daringly reviles God's Majesty (2 Peter 2:9-10) through slaughtering the Word of God out of the post which God caused me to make, so your Free-willian Philosophy adheres to the nullification of the Word of God.

You described the post that God caused me to make as "commentary" which indicates non-authoritative Biblically speaking, yet I proclaimed the Word of God "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you" (Lord Christ, Matthew 28:20) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus, John 15:16) in the same paragraph in Christ, but you diced out these immediate quotations of the Word of God; therefore, free-willian you labeled the Word of God as your "commentary" by which you demote the Word of God to non-authoritative.

So, you subscribed to this forum apart from Christ because you wrote "I subscribed to this forum with my God given free will".

I subscribed to this forum according to the Will of God because my Savior Jesus says “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21).

God caused me to tag you because you need to read the Word of God, and God caused me to tag you because your heartfelt "Like" of MTMattie's post that publicly demonstrates you heartfelt agreement with MTMattie's error.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

To @civic and @MTMattie, also, because of your "Like"/agreement of @ProDeo's post.

You express your enthusiastic agreement with your fellow free-willian philosophers.

Be separate from them (2 Corinthians 6:17).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER, THE SPIRIT, THE SON IN ONE!!!

@Kermos

Funny that. Funny that because you so dislike what I say, and some do by giving a thumbs up bothers you.

Do you ever see me comment for or against anyone that gives you a thumbs up. SMH

You even are confrontational when I post the words of a man with a ministry. HAVE YOU CONTACTED HIM TO TELL HIM HE IS WRONG?

WHY NOT??????????????????????????????????????? I gave a link.

SOVEREIGN Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

Sovereign Power Synonym Discussion of Sovereign. one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty; one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere… See the full definition

SOVEREIGN | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary​

Sovereign can be a noun meaning a king or queen, a coin, or a state that is independent and self-governing. It can also be an adjective meaning excellent or independent. Learn more about the word, its usage and its synonyms with Cambridge Dictionary.

SOVEREIGN Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com​

Sovereign can be a noun meaning a monarch or a supreme ruler, or an adjective meaning royal, supreme, or greatest. Learn more about the word history, origin, and usage of sovereign with Dictionary.com.

Sovereignty - Wikipedia​

Sovereignty can generally be defined as supreme authority. [1] [2] [3] Sovereignty entails hierarchy within a state as well as external autonomy for states. [4]In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people and to change existing laws.

There is no definition here that would say that the supreme leader, the supreme creator, the supreme one over all to a total control of everyone.

That would be a dictator and that is not what the heavenly Father is.

We are living in His world. Created by Him, For Him, and For His needs and plans.

You say He never gave free-will.

Answer this before I go on any more as I have to go see the tax man.

When He created Adam and Eve... If it was not by free will... why did they eat that damnable fruit that they were told not to.

His foreknowledge let Him know they would.

Did He predestine them to do so? If you say yes... why start the world off with disobedience from those that by His own plan
He could not or would not save?

Ill be back

 

[synergy]

You self-described yourself as a free-will person, yet there is no such thing as a human will that is free from the human to whom the will is attached; therefore, Biblically, you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

I'd like to ask you a few simple questions so that I can better understand why you abhor human will.

1. Can one be saved without willingly repenting of his sins?
2. Do you believe that Christ has a human will?
3. Can our wills be aligned with God's will?
4. Can there ever be such a thing as a self-less will?
5. If so, does a self-less will have any value to you or to God?

This will be a good start. Have you ever written down any manifesto against human will?

 

[Kermos]

@Kermos

I tag you in return with my God given free will, I did not receive a word from God.

But following your belief that I don't have free will you must believe I had no choice to tag you in return.

How can that be true, it can't.

Instead let's reason,

Jes 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD:

God is telling you to think and reason with your God given mind and make sane decisions.

Matt 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Think my friend, reason my friend.

Be blessed.

I thank the Lord God Almighty for lovingly imparting me and every Christian with the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16), so Christ graciously causes us Christians to fulfill the command of God "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (Matthew 22:37).

May God richly bless you with the mind of Christ that you understand the awesome magnitude of God's love in the Word of God.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (The Word of God, John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

In the absence of the Word of God declaring man was imparted a free-will, your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) awards yourself a free-will. God never imparted you with a free-will, but you were created with a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.

Now, instead of self-reasoning their deception with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is Christ-image (Romans 8:29) under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament (and free-will is a mistranslation of the Greek).

Free-willians do not have a free will, as declared by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as declared by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from our Christian's Father's Will with thoughts like "I tag you in return with my God given free will, I did not receive a word from God" (ProDeo quote).

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• Two prominent English Bible translations of Philemon 1:14, the NASB translated to free-will, and the KJV translated to willingly.
  • "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14), New American Standard Bible/NASB)
  • "But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly" (Philemon 1:14, King James Version/KJV)

You wrote "But following your belief that I don't have free will you must believe I had no choice to tag you in return" which is your self-willed deliberate falsification of the post to which you replied containing:

​

You self-described yourself as a free-will person, yet there is no such thing as a human will that is free from the human to whom the will is attached; therefore, Biblically, you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).​

​

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!!

 

[MTMattie]

I thank the Lord God Almighty for lovingly imparting me and every Christian with the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16), so Christ graciously causes us Christians to fulfill the command of God "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (Matthew 22:37).

May God richly bless you with the mind of Christ that you understand the awesome magnitude of God's love in the Word of God.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (The Word of God, John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

In the absence of the Word of God declaring man was imparted a free-will, your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) awards yourself a free-will. God never imparted you with a free-will, but you were created with a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.

Now, instead of self-reasoning their deception with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is Christ-image (Romans 8:29) under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament (and free-will is a mistranslation of the Greek).

Free-willians do not have a free will, as declared by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as declared by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from our Christian's Father's Will with thoughts like "I tag you in return with my God given free will, I did not receive a word from God" (ProDeo quote).

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• Two prominent English Bible translations of Philemon 1:14, the NASB translated to free-will, and the KJV translated to willingly.
  • "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14), New American Standard Bible/NASB)
  • "But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly" (Philemon 1:14, King James Version/KJV)

You wrote "But following your belief that I don't have free will you must believe I had no choice to tag you in return" which is your self-willed deliberate falsification of the post to which you replied containing:

​

You self-described yourself as a free-will person, yet there is no such thing as a human will that is free from the human to whom the will is attached; therefore, Biblically, you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).​

​

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!!

Does it make your heart go all fluttery and pitty pat knowing that the first man the God created. The one called Adam, and the woman God made for him were somehow intentionally made to disobey and therefore lost their ties to God and would not see the inside of heaven.

They had no free will to do that or not, because they were made just like you but were not of the chosen.

Does it make your heart go all fluttery and pitty pat knowing that all those in Sodom and Gommorah also had to have been made the way they were so they could be destroyed as they were.

No free will to repent. It was all in the beginning plans.

Does it make your heart go all fluttery and pitty pat knowing that ... You have been chosen to be saved, along with Noah and 7 others on that fateful ark while the rest of the world lost everything including their lives and it was determined before time it would happen because they had no free will.

Shall I go on? Can you possibly even understand why you are wrong?

 

[civic]

I thank the Lord God Almighty for lovingly imparting me and every Christian with the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16), so Christ graciously causes us Christians to fulfill the command of God "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (Matthew 22:37).

May God richly bless you with the mind of Christ that you understand the awesome magnitude of God's love in the Word of God.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your natural fleshly free-will faith payment in your "apart from Christ, I chose to believe in Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (The Word of God, John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

In the absence of the Word of God declaring man was imparted a free-will, your heart (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) awards yourself a free-will. God never imparted you with a free-will, but you were created with a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The Bondage Of A Man's Will​

Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.

Now, instead of self-reasoning their deception with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is Christ-image (Romans 8:29) under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament (and free-will is a mistranslation of the Greek).

Free-willians do not have a free will, as declared by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as declared by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from our Christian's Father's Will with thoughts like "I tag you in return with my God given free will, I did not receive a word from God" (ProDeo quote).

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

• "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
• Two prominent English Bible translations of Philemon 1:14, the NASB translated to free-will, and the KJV translated to willingly.
  • "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14), New American Standard Bible/NASB)
  • "But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly" (Philemon 1:14, King James Version/KJV)

You wrote "But following your belief that I don't have free will you must believe I had no choice to tag you in return" which is your self-willed deliberate falsification of the post to which you replied containing:

​

You self-described yourself as a free-will person, yet there is no such thing as a human will that is free from the human to whom the will is attached; therefore, Biblically, you have a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).​

​

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Free will is given by God to all mankind so they can choose this day who they will serve.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Kermos]

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). Free will is given by God to all mankind so they can choose this day who they will serve.

hope this helps !!!

As a blessed Christian in Christ, the work of God is that I believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) according to Christ who is the Truth (John 14:6), so you calling me a follower of "Fatalism" means that you are calling my loving Leader Jesus Christ your wicked "Fatal", a.k.a. "Death", and no Christian applies Death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!

Lord Jesus Christ's atonement always succeeds! But, you demand your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT as recorded in post #3,926 of this thread. According to your Free-willian Philosophy Christ's atonement applies to all people everywhere in all time, and the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE!!!

 

[MTMattie]

As a blessed Christian in Christ, the work of God is that I believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) according to Christ who is the Truth (John 14:6), so you calling me a follower of "Fatalism" means that you are calling my loving Leader Jesus Christ your wicked "Fatal", a.k.a. "Death", and no Christian applies Death to Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ is Life!

Lord Jesus Christ's atonement always succeeds! But, you demand your CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT as recorded in post #3,926 of this thread. According to your Free-willian Philosophy Christ's atonement applies to all people everywhere in all time, and the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.

ηλίθιος @Kermos
If Tom chooses to believe... that is called free will
If Nancy chooses not to believe... that is called freewill.

Each having heard all there is to hear about Jesus shedding His blood, etc.

Each having made a choice

That is free will

• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, you free-willians believe in failure atonement.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GIVER OF LIFE!!!