brightfame52
Well-known member
None of those verses say man has spiritual ability. Nothing is said about them being able to believe spiritually, they cant. There are no issues
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
How were these able to believe
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
And keeps reading his views into the rest
brightfame52
Well-known member
None of those verses say man has spiritual ability. Nothing is said about them being able to believe spiritually, they cant. There are no issues
How were these able to believe with no ability
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
Your theology has no answer
brightfame52
Well-known member
None of those verses say man has spiritual ability. Nothing is said about them being able to believe spiritually, they cant. There are no issues
How were these able to believe with no ability
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
Your theology has no answer
brightfame52
Well-known member
They didnt believe Spiritually and couldn't
Scripture stated they did
How were these able to believe with no ability
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
Your theology has no answer
You ommitted the preceding verse of 2 Chronicles 36:14 which details that the people were not full of belief, that is, unfaithful, yet belief/faith is by the Grace of God for it is written "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work" (the Apostle Paul, Ephesians 2:8-10).
God exclusively imparts grace, so grace is not man's doing.
God exclusively imparts salvation, so salvation is not man's doing.
God exclusively imparts faith/belief, so faith/belief is not man's doing.
Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus Christ saying “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
No Holy Scripture states that God imparted God's Grace upon unfaithful people, so your preaching of Resistible Grace is false doctrine, and this fact is evidenced in the passage that you quoted.
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation adulterates the Holy Scripture as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your post to which God causes me to respond now:
| @civic's Revisionist History | The 2nd Book of Chronicles | |
| The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people by imparting grace that the people could resist or freewill choose to drive their own initiative to accept and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy. (2 civic 36:15-16) | Furthermore, all the officials of the priests and the people were very unfaithful following all the abominations of the nations; and they defiled the house of the LORD which He had sanctified in Jerusalem. The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy. (2 Chronicles 36:14-16) |
According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
This post is an integral continuation with:
- post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
- post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,105 - Your perverted a warning into a binding judgment in Hebrews 10:29 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,132 - Your heart adulterates Hebrews 12:25's word "warns" into the word "condemns" As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,168 - You Added Free-will into Genesis 6:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!
civic
Well-known member
like a Jew you are saved by the works of the law identifying faith as a work in John 6:29.
you would change ephesians 2 to say it is by grace though works we are saved instead of faith.
your heretical view of John 6:29 has been exposed.
next fallacy
@brightfame52, you are absolutely correct there, yet @TomL keeps conveying that those people without root in Jesus Christ cause themselves to believe in Jesus Christ according to their own initiative in Luke 8:13 - the passage does not state @TomL's conveyance.
@brightfame52, @TomL cannot address the issues with his theology respecting the following in Truth (John 14:6).
@TomL, you do not judge what is right in your own initiative for Lord Jesus Christ says "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right
(Luke 12:57). You are dead wrong about man having free-will to choose God, and, the Truth (John 14:6) is that no Word of God indicates man was imparted a free-will to choose God. God is exclusively Sovereign in man's salvation as shown in the past posts in Truth (John 14:6).
@TomL, you cannot choose God, and you always fail to judge rightly in your own initiative to choose the Righteous God because the Word of God says such between the below and above.
@TomL, you believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
@TomL, you wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| TomL's Self-exaltation | Exaltation of Christ | |
| I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for you can choose to believe in me apart from Me (TomL 15:5). | I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5). |
Moreover, @TomL, you do not believe Jesus (John 5:45-47) when He says "see" (John 3:3) as can be seen in when you wrote "John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of TomL | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience yet he can see the Kingdom of God (TomL 3:3). | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3). |
@TomL, your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD - THE GIVER OF LIFE AND SIGHT!!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
They didn't believe Spiritually and couldn't. Sure man can believe naturally, but there is no spiritual root, life Matt 13:20-21
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
See he received seed in stony places, a unrenewed, unregenerate heart, so he will fall away,
But the one who receives seed on good ground, denoting a regenerate heart, he will understand it spiritually and bear fruit Matt 13:23
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
See none of the other grounds were good and understood the word, because they werent regenerate.
civic
Well-known member
yes the two fatalists/hyper calvinists are in agreement that is a huge surprise lol.
Verses John 2:20,26 prove that a Calvinist monergistic view of faith is a Dead Faith.
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Carry on with your Dead Faith.
civic
Well-known member
Yes as dead as the law
@brightfame52, @TomL uses Luke 8:13 thusly:
| The Book of TomL | The Book of Luke | |
| Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they free-will choose to believe in Me to be secured in My hand for a while, and in time of temptation fall away, so they snatch themselves out of My hand (TomL 8:13) | Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away (Luke 8:13) |
That which @TomL conveys is not the Word of God!
Lord Jesus didn't say those rocky soil people believe in Him as He truly is. In other words, those rocky soil people could be people who believe in free-will because they demote Jesus from Sovereignty and exalt man to Sovereign.
Additionally, @TomL has someone snatching people out of Jesus Christ's hand. The King of Glory says of His sheep "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).
@TomL's heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE UNSHAKABLE GOD!!!
Sorry belief is belief and faith is faith
There is bno special category of believing spirtually vs believing non spiritually
Scripture stated they did believe
How were these able to believe with no ability
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
Your theology has no answer
You failed to address these also
How were these able to believe
Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.
and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe
John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”
and just repeat your old repeat claims which ignores lexical and commentary data as well as parallel texts
and immediate context
John 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3. θάνατον see death=die Lk 2:26; Hb 11:5 (cf. Ps 88:49; Anth. Pal. 6, 230 ἰδεῖν Ἀίδην); grief Rv 18:7 (cf. 1 Macc 13:3 τὰς στενοχωρίας; Eccl 6:6 ἀγαθωσύνην). τὴν διαφθοράν experience decay=decay Ac 2:27, 31; 13:35-7 (all Ps 15:10); τ. ἡμέραν (Soph., Oed. R. 831; Aristoph., Pax 345; Polyb. 10, 4, 7; 32, 10, 9; Ael. Aristid. 32 p. 601 D.; Lam 2:16; Jos., Ant. 6, 305): τὴν ἡμέραν τ. ἐμήν J 8:56; μίαν τῶν ἡμερῶν Lk 17:22
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 221.
4. to experience ⇔ see — to experience something, conceived of as being present during the experience so as to view it
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).
As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed
Observed this well known Calvinist commentary
cannot see—can have no part in (just as one is said to “see life,” “see death,” &c.).
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 131.
And this Calvinist Greek Scholar
He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.
And Calvin himself
To SEE the kingdom of God is of the same meaning as to ENTER INTO the kingdom of God, as we shall immediately perceive from the context
John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 1; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 108.
Also other verses using the word see
Luke 2:26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.
John 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Heb 11:5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience, to enter, to obtain
but you are not an honest handler of god's word
You are repeating yourself
