An Article on free will

[Johann]

Man by nature, carnal mind cannot submit to the Law of God,hence cannot submit to God, cant separate God from His Law Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice the carnal mind is enmity against God as well, so the carnal mind hates God. The word enmity echthra:
hatred, its the same word in Gal 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

That cannot be changed as long as we are unregenerate in the flesh

There is no "good news" for those on the outside looking in-coming from you.


A PERSONAL APPLICATION
In the preceding sections we have seen the marvelous provision of God whereby men might be saved. In His grace and mercy, God has removed those things that separated man from God. Yet, while God has done this, there still remains another barrier. This is the barrier of Christ Himself and His work on the cross. For unless one personally trusts in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross as the sole solution for his sin, he remains cut off and separated from God.

There is only one sin today which can keep a person separated from God and lost, the sin of rejection of Christ or unbelief in Him as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Note carefully, therefore, the following verses of Scripture which illustrate this fact.

John 3:17-18 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greaterworks than these shall he do; because I go to the Father.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

If you have never put your trust in Jesus Christ, may we invite you to do so right now. He has removed the barrier that stands as a separation between you and God and an abundant life of fellowship and significance as a child of God, but you must personally receive Jesus Christ by faith. Your failure to personally trust in Christ as your Savior is the only thing that stands between you and a personal relationship with God so that you can begin to experience the abundant life of Christ and deliverance over your sin, the powers of darkness, and the things that have held you in bondage (life dominating patterns) all your life.

Just pray this prayer in faith (or one similar) and we assure you by the promises of the Word of God, you will be saved and enter into the family of God as a child of God, born anew by the Spirit of God.

“Father, I understand that I am a sinner and separated from you, but that Jesus Christ has died for my sin and offers me eternal life and an abundant life can turn my life around through a relationship with Him. Right now I turn from myself and place my trust in Him as my personal Savior. Thank you heavenly Father for saving me and giving me eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ.”

If you have prayed this prayer, you are now a child of God, but you are also a babe in Christ who needs to grow through spiritual nurture. You need to be discipled, to have fellowship with other Bible believing Christians in a Church that truly teaches the Bible so you learn the Word of God. These things are crucial for your spiritual health and growth.

1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babes, long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow in respect to salvation.

2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

APPENDIX A: THE BELIEVER’S UNFATHOMABLE RICHES IN CHRIST
INTRODUCTION
When anyone accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour they are instantaneously enriched with every spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph. 1:3) and declared to be complete in Christ (Col. 2:10). In fact, the Apostle Paul refers to these blessings as “the unfathomable riches of Christ” in Ephesians 3:8. “Unfathomable” is the Greek anexichniastos which means “past finding out, unsearchable, not to be tracked out.” The idea is that the believer’s blessings in Christ are “too deep to be measured.” Many of these blessings, however, are clearly defined for us in the Bible. When you receive Jesus Christ by faith, at least the following 34 things are unconditionally promised to you as a member of the body of Christ, the Church, as stated in God’s holy Word.

However, if you never receive Jesus Christ by faith as the only begotten Son of God who died on the cross in your place to pay the penalty for your sins, and rose again to ever reign with God the Father, then you will forfeit these awesome blessings.

How can you receive these God-given blessings in Christ? The Bible says:

John 1:12 As many as receive Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spake unto them, saying, “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies. And whosoever liveth and believeth me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If you have never trusted in Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, let me encourage you to believe what the Scripture says about all people and about the Lord Jesus Christ. God declares to us in the Bible that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God (His holy character), and that the wages of sin is death, physical death and eternal separation from God. But God also declares to us in Scripture that Jesus Christ is God’s eternal Son, the God-man Savior who died on the cross for the sin of all the world. So what must you do to receive eternal life and the 34 things listed below?

Simply put your trust in Jesus Christ and thank Him for your salvation which He purchased for you by His death on the cross. As soon as you accept Him, you will be born again by the Spirit of God and Christ will come into your heart. At that moment, you will receive the “unfathomable riches of Christ” and the blessings listed below will become your eternal possession.

Soteriology Study

The Meaning and Scope of Salvation Soteriology Study originally posted at Bible.org Even a casual look at the world quickly reveals man’s condition in sin and the awful plight in which this fallen …

soteriology101.com

J.

 

[civic]

There is no "good news" for those on the outside looking in-coming from you.


A PERSONAL APPLICATION
In the preceding sections we have seen the marvelous provision of God whereby men might be saved. In His grace and mercy, God has removed those things that separated man from God. Yet, while God has done this, there still remains another barrier. This is the barrier of Christ Himself and His work on the cross. For unless one personally trusts in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross as the sole solution for his sin, he remains cut off and separated from God.

There is only one sin today which can keep a person separated from God and lost, the sin of rejection of Christ or unbelief in Him as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Note carefully, therefore, the following verses of Scripture which illustrate this fact.

John 3:17-18 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greaterworks than these shall he do; because I go to the Father.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

If you have never put your trust in Jesus Christ, may we invite you to do so right now. He has removed the barrier that stands as a separation between you and God and an abundant life of fellowship and significance as a child of God, but you must personally receive Jesus Christ by faith. Your failure to personally trust in Christ as your Savior is the only thing that stands between you and a personal relationship with God so that you can begin to experience the abundant life of Christ and deliverance over your sin, the powers of darkness, and the things that have held you in bondage (life dominating patterns) all your life.

Just pray this prayer in faith (or one similar) and we assure you by the promises of the Word of God, you will be saved and enter into the family of God as a child of God, born anew by the Spirit of God.

“Father, I understand that I am a sinner and separated from you, but that Jesus Christ has died for my sin and offers me eternal life and an abundant life can turn my life around through a relationship with Him. Right now I turn from myself and place my trust in Him as my personal Savior. Thank you heavenly Father for saving me and giving me eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ.”

If you have prayed this prayer, you are now a child of God, but you are also a babe in Christ who needs to grow through spiritual nurture. You need to be discipled, to have fellowship with other Bible believing Christians in a Church that truly teaches the Bible so you learn the Word of God. These things are crucial for your spiritual health and growth.

1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babes, long for the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow in respect to salvation.

2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

APPENDIX A: THE BELIEVER’S UNFATHOMABLE RICHES IN CHRIST
INTRODUCTION
When anyone accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour they are instantaneously enriched with every spiritual blessing in Christ (Eph. 1:3) and declared to be complete in Christ (Col. 2:10). In fact, the Apostle Paul refers to these blessings as “the unfathomable riches of Christ” in Ephesians 3:8. “Unfathomable” is the Greek anexichniastos which means “past finding out, unsearchable, not to be tracked out.” The idea is that the believer’s blessings in Christ are “too deep to be measured.” Many of these blessings, however, are clearly defined for us in the Bible. When you receive Jesus Christ by faith, at least the following 34 things are unconditionally promised to you as a member of the body of Christ, the Church, as stated in God’s holy Word.

However, if you never receive Jesus Christ by faith as the only begotten Son of God who died on the cross in your place to pay the penalty for your sins, and rose again to ever reign with God the Father, then you will forfeit these awesome blessings.

How can you receive these God-given blessings in Christ? The Bible says:

John 1:12 As many as receive Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spake unto them, saying, “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies. And whosoever liveth and believeth me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If you have never trusted in Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, let me encourage you to believe what the Scripture says about all people and about the Lord Jesus Christ. God declares to us in the Bible that we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God (His holy character), and that the wages of sin is death, physical death and eternal separation from God. But God also declares to us in Scripture that Jesus Christ is God’s eternal Son, the God-man Savior who died on the cross for the sin of all the world. So what must you do to receive eternal life and the 34 things listed below?

Simply put your trust in Jesus Christ and thank Him for your salvation which He purchased for you by His death on the cross. As soon as you accept Him, you will be born again by the Spirit of God and Christ will come into your heart. At that moment, you will receive the “unfathomable riches of Christ” and the blessings listed below will become your eternal possession.

Soteriology Study

The Meaning and Scope of Salvation Soteriology Study originally posted at Bible.org Even a casual look at the world quickly reveals man’s condition in sin and the awful plight in which this fallen …

soteriology101.com

J.

the person does not believe that a person is saved by believing and receiving the gospel/Christ as Lord by confessing as per Romans 10:9-13. he believes he was saved and justified before creation via election/predestination. the gospel is not necessary in his theology and neither is faith required to be saved from sin, death and the lake of fire.

 

[Johann]

the person does not believe that a person is saved by believing and receiving the gospel/Christ as Lord by confessing as per Romans 10:9-13. he believes he was saved and justified before creation via election/predestination. the gospel is not necessary in his theology.

Problematic and sad-to say the least.


Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

John 1:12

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."
John 3:16-18

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
John 3:36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
John 5:24

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
John 6:29

"Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'”
John 6:35

"Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.'”
John 6:40

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 8:24

"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 11:25-26

"Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?'"
John 12:46

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness."
John 20:31

"But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
The Book of Acts
Acts 2:21

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Acts 10:43

"To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Acts 13:39

"And by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses."
Acts 16:31

"And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'"
The Epistles of Paul
Romans 1:16

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Romans 3:22-26

"The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith."
Romans 4:24-25

"But for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."
Romans 5:1

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 10:9-10

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
Galatians 2:16

"Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
Galatians 3:22

"But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Philippians 3:9

"And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith."
The General Epistles and Revelation
Hebrews 11:6

"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
1 John 5:1

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."
1 John 5:10-11

"Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."
Revelation 22:17

"The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, 'Come.' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires
take the water of life without price."


These passages consistently affirm that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. This includes believing in His identity as the Son of God, His work on the cross, His resurrection, and His role as Savior.

Thanks @civic.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

Its a spiritual inability remember ?

Then your God cannot be the same God as my God.

Sorry.

 

[Kermos]

7-Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

Your present a warning such that the warning is converted into a binding judgment. Your heart applies Hebrews 10:29 as if it was written like "For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30). The 1 Corinthians 11:30 passage contains not the warning of severer judgment as Hebrews 10:29; moreover, the 1 Corinthians 11:30 passage indicates people continuing to be Christians, yet the Hebrews 10:29 passage warns of people discontinuing to be Christians.

Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation adulterates the Holy Scripture as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your post to which God causes me to respond now:

The Book of civic		The Book of Hebrews
For this reason you are he who will receive much severer punishment which he will deserve who God gave the Grace of God and has trampled under foot the Son of God by resisting the Grace of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace because he resisted the Grace of God thus nullifying the Grace of God! (civic 10:29).		How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29)

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the the Holy Scripture, again.

Hebrews 10:29 does not state that a Christian ever will or "has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified"!

According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.

Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.

This post is an integral continuation with:

1. post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
2. post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
3. post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
4. post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
5. post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
6. post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
7. post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
8. post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[civic]

Your present a warning such that the warning is converted into a binding judgment. Your heart applies Hebrews 10:29 as if it was written like "For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30). The 1 Corinthians 11:30 passage contains not the warning of severer judgment as Hebrews 10:29; moreover, the 1 Corinthians 11:30 passage indicates people continuing to be Christians, yet the Hebrews 10:29 passage warns of people discontinuing to be Christians.

Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation adulterates the Holy Scripture as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your post to which God causes me to respond now:

The Book of civic		The Book of Hebrews
For this reason you are he who will receive much severer punishment which he will deserve who God gave the Grace of God and has trampled under foot the Son of God by resisting the Grace of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace because he resisted the Grace of God thus nullifying the Grace of God! (civic 10:29).		How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29)

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the the Holy Scripture, again.

Hebrews 10:29 does not state that a Christian ever will or "has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified"!

According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.

Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.

This post is an integral continuation with:

1. post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
2. post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
3. post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
4. post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
5. post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
6. post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
7. post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
8. post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!

The warning is to you are you denying the Bible was written to believers ? Yes or no

 

[brightfame52]

Is this your way of debating?

J.

Yes, Im giving you my views from my research that go against your views and argument, what else you expect me to do.

 

[brightfame52]

strawman- many regenerate live and operate in the flesh and Paul refers to them as carnal and not spiritual.

next fallacy

The regenerate have a new spiritual disposition by the new birth that submits to God, and yet they can act carnal from the flesh that still resides with them, however the unregenerate doesnt have the new birth nature, so they cannot please God nor obey God spiritually, they dead. The regenerate believer is not dead to God, but alive.

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

There is no "good news" for those on the outside looking in-coming from you.

You just post dont you.

 

[Johann]

Yes, Im giving you my views from my research that go against your views and argument, what else you expect me to do.

Those who deny the doctrine of Total Depravity, and especially its corollary Total Inability, demand we show them from Scripture where an inherent inner inability to freely believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel is taught — why there must be an inner work of the Holy Spirit in the freeing of one’s will from the stranglehold that is our sinful nature.

Yes, that’s what we want. I appreciate this author’s acknowledgment of the request (edit: I have since been informed that the author of this article is William Birch). This is the first accurate framing of the discussion that I have read. Unfortunately, in my view, he is unable to do so in his article but I’ll leave that up to you to decide.

Arminians affirm both Total Depravity and Total Inability.1 We affirm not free will but freed will — freed by the Holy Spirit in order to freely respond to the Gospel.

So there must be some sort of prevenient grace that enables men to believe, but they can still reject if they so choose. Understood.

Whether mortals are born guilty of the sin of Adam is not under scrutiny here. What does possessing a sin nature entail? Or, better, what effects does possessing a sin nature produce? Can a sinful person perform a good act? Yes.

I completely agree.

But what of the spiritual realm? What can a sinful mortal accomplish spiritually? The simple answer: nothing.

Where, from the Bible, does he get the idea that there is a stark duality between the physical and spiritual realms? Mankind, as made in the Image of God, is both a physical and spiritual being whether we believe we are or not. I do not believe there is a single deed a human person could perform that does not have a spiritual component to it. Spirit is a part our nature. If a Christian volunteers at a soup kitchen and helps provide for the needy, in what way is that deed spiritual in a way that the exact same deed from an unbeliever is not spiritual? Do not evil deeds also have a spiritual component to them? The ghastly effects of rape cannot be seen as divorced from the spiritual realm. This idea seems to come out of an unbiblical anthropology.

Regarding the act of believing in Christ, the condition required of God for His saving of the soul, Jesus Himself confesses: “No one can [i.e., has the capability to] come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44); “no one can [i.e., has the capability to] come to Me unless it has been granted [to give, offer] him from the Father” (John 6:44, emphases added).

Later on in the article, much to my delight, the author accurately quotes and directly responds to Dr. Leighton Flower’s position on Total Inability. He takes his discussion opponent head on. This is what great discussions are made of. Yet, when it comes to John 6 and the “draws” and “grants”, the author seems unaware if Traditionalists like Flowers have a position on those passages nor what it is if they do.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR GOD TO “DRAW” AND “GRANT”?
So I’ll do the work the author does not. First, let’s point out the structure of the argument he is making.

The author assumes that the drawing and granting is the salvation-enabling prevenient grace without showing it from the text.
This interpretation is only necessary if one assumes Total Inability. His argument is circular. The author is using John 6 as evidence for Total Inability but his take on the passage requires the assumption of Total Inability to work in the first place.
If one does not assume Total Inability then “grants” and “draws” can have other meanings. If natural man is not unable to respond to the teachings of Jesus, then the “grants” and “draws” can be contained in the teachings themselves.

For example, let’s consider the pilot of a commercial aircraft. The pilot has a flight plan that goes from Houston to Chicago. By opening the door of the aircraft and lowering the ramp, he grants the passengers who climb onto the plane the ability to travel to Chicago. By proclaiming that the plane is now seating passengers, he is drawing passengers to the flight. It is not required to see the pilot as picking which passengers would board his plane, or him carrying unable to walk comatose passengers onto his plane, to accurately see him as drawing and granting passage.

In our estimation, this is a more biblical view of what Jesus is talking about in John 6. The Gospels see Jesus as actively hiding his identity from the Jews (Mat 16:20; Mark 9:9, 3:12, 8:30, 4:11-12; 33-34). Let’s look at that last reference.

“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ” ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ …With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.“ (Mark 4:11-12; 33-34, emphasis mine)

Jesus sees the Jews He is hiding the truth from as able to “turn and be forgiven” because if He did not hide it from them “otherwise they might” do so! This is how Dr. Flowers puts it:

We believe that Jesus is only revealing His identity to His closest followers and hiding the truth from the rest . . . We understand that Jesus is using parabolic language to blind the self-righteous Jews of that day from recognizing Him as their long awaited Messiah. . . That, and that alone, is the reason His Jewish audience was incapable of coming to Him in faith (John 12:39-41).

This is much more consistent with Jesus’ own teaching in John 6. The Arminian article quotes John 6:44 but does not quote v. 45 where Jesus explains what He means by “draws/grants”. Look at the half the paragraph and see the flow of John’s thought:

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—” (emphasis mine)

So the Jews are disbelieving and grumbling about Him and Jesus explains why they are disbelieving. He doesn’t say “because God has not given you the grace to believe”. He says “Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me”. So if they had done their homework on the Prophets they would recognize Jesus as the Messiah and come to him. They have not and we see through out the Gospels that Jesus hides further revelation from them so they will not.

THE POWER OF WORDS
The Arminian author goes on to make a strange argument that I have yet to hear in this discussion. I appreciate his direct approach in dealing with Dr. Flower’s actual position, something I have rarely seen.

Someone who denies this understanding of prevenient grace may argue, as does Leighton Flowers, “we must not presume that just because man is born fallen that the gospel is not up for the task of enabling the fallen man to respond to its appeal for reconciliation from that fall.” (link) (emphases added) But the message or words of the Good News are not magic words: words do not enable a person to believe in Jesus.

If “magic” accurately describes Dr. Flower’s position that the words of the Gospel enable, then I do not see how “magic” does not also apply to the super secret inner prevenient grace that comes with the proclamation of the Gospel. But, of course, Dr. Flowers does not mean to say that the words are a magic spell, but that men cannot believe in what they have not heard (Rom 10:14), and by hearing are thereby enabled to believe.

Now comes the author’s strange argument about words:

Words can inform an individual regarding information, but they cannot spiritually enable a person to assume action, and spiritual enablement is in focus here, since a carnal or natural person “does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness” to that person; indeed, that individual cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised, examined, or discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).

This is some philosophical gobbly-gook right here. He has accepted a philosophical presupposition, without biblical evidence, about what words can and cannot do. I cannot give some specific exegetical rebuttal because these are philosophical distinctions without reference in the Scriptures. Words can inform but do not spur people onto action? That’s silly on its face. Every political movement in the history of mankind, including the Church, has assumed that words can move people to action. He is forced to create a category of “spiritual action” to not make it sound silly and it fails.

Rom 10: 17, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”

The word of Christ is the means by which faith comes. Seems like words are powerful.

His 1 Cor 2:14 reference is Paul talking to Christians about gaining spiritual wisdom and he’s saying that Christians who are living according to their nature will not gain that wisdom. “The things of the Spirit of God” are not code for “repentance unto salvation”. Paul tells us what he means in the previous paragraph and it is wisdom, not accepting the message of the Gospel.

I called this argument strange because, perhaps without realizing it, the author has admitted that he believes the Gospel is not powerful enough to accomplish what it was sent to do (1 Cor 15:1-2; 2 Cor 5:20). The Gospel just informs, it can do nothing else. This view is consistent with prevenient grace, I have just never heard someone who believes in Total Inability admit it before. I respect the consistency.

I have good reasons why I think the Bible teaches that men can and must respond to the Gospel. Here are some passages that teach that unregenerate men can and must seek God. Does this seeking earn him salvation? Of course not. Does this seeking mean he can fulfill the law? Nay. But it does mean that the unregenerate are not corpses.

“At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”” – Acts 10: 1-6

“And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,”‭‭ – Acts‬ ‭17:26-27‬ ‭

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”‭‭ -Isaiah‬ ‭55:6-7‬ ‭

“Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.”‭‭ -Zephaniah‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭

“And he did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the Lord.” -‭‭2 Chronicles‬ ‭12:14‬ ‭

“Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O Lord.” –‭Psalms‬ ‭83:16‬ ‭

“Then Jehoshaphat was afraid and set his face to seek the Lord, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.”‭‭ -2 Chronicles‬ ‭20:3‬ ‭

“For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.” –Luke‬ ‭12:30-31‬

‭“He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.”‭‭ -Romans‬ ‭2:6-8‬ ‭

“And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.” –‭‭Psalms‬ ‭9:10‬

“And those who had set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came after them from all the tribes of Israel to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord, the God of their fathers.” –2 Chronicles‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭

Is the Gospel is not powerful enough to accomplish what it was sent to do (1 Cor 15:1-2; 2 Cor 5:20) @brightfame52?

J.

 

[brightfame52]

Then your God cannot be the same God as my God.

Sorry.

I would agree with that.

Man by nature, carnal mind cannot submit to the Law of God,hence cannot submit to God, cant separate God from His Law Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And their will isnt free to change that !

 

[Johann]

@Johann



You just post dont you.

Absolutely! Many are trapped in Calvinism and need to come out of it!

J.

 

[brightfame52]

Those who deny the doctrine of Total Depravity, and especially its corollary Total Inability, demand we show them from Scripture where an inherent inner inability to freely believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel is taught — why there must be an inner work of the Holy Spirit in the freeing of one’s will from the stranglehold that is our sinful nature.

Yes, that’s what we want. I appreciate this author’s acknowledgment of the request (edit: I have since been informed that the author of this article is William Birch). This is the first accurate framing of the discussion that I have read. Unfortunately, in my view, he is unable to do so in his article but I’ll leave that up to you to decide.

Arminians affirm both Total Depravity and Total Inability.1 We affirm not free will but freed will — freed by the Holy Spirit in order to freely respond to the Gospel.

So there must be some sort of prevenient grace that enables men to believe, but they can still reject if they so choose. Understood.

Whether mortals are born guilty of the sin of Adam is not under scrutiny here. What does possessing a sin nature entail? Or, better, what effects does possessing a sin nature produce? Can a sinful person perform a good act? Yes.

I completely agree.

But what of the spiritual realm? What can a sinful mortal accomplish spiritually? The simple answer: nothing.

Where, from the Bible, does he get the idea that there is a stark duality between the physical and spiritual realms? Mankind, as made in the Image of God, is both a physical and spiritual being whether we believe we are or not. I do not believe there is a single deed a human person could perform that does not have a spiritual component to it. Spirit is a part our nature. If a Christian volunteers at a soup kitchen and helps provide for the needy, in what way is that deed spiritual in a way that the exact same deed from an unbeliever is not spiritual? Do not evil deeds also have a spiritual component to them? The ghastly effects of rape cannot be seen as divorced from the spiritual realm. This idea seems to come out of an unbiblical anthropology.

Regarding the act of believing in Christ, the condition required of God for His saving of the soul, Jesus Himself confesses: “No one can [i.e., has the capability to] come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44); “no one can [i.e., has the capability to] come to Me unless it has been granted [to give, offer] him from the Father” (John 6:44, emphases added).

Later on in the article, much to my delight, the author accurately quotes and directly responds to Dr. Leighton Flower’s position on Total Inability. He takes his discussion opponent head on. This is what great discussions are made of. Yet, when it comes to John 6 and the “draws” and “grants”, the author seems unaware if Traditionalists like Flowers have a position on those passages nor what it is if they do.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR GOD TO “DRAW” AND “GRANT”?
So I’ll do the work the author does not. First, let’s point out the structure of the argument he is making.

The author assumes that the drawing and granting is the salvation-enabling prevenient grace without showing it from the text.
This interpretation is only necessary if one assumes Total Inability. His argument is circular. The author is using John 6 as evidence for Total Inability but his take on the passage requires the assumption of Total Inability to work in the first place.
If one does not assume Total Inability then “grants” and “draws” can have other meanings. If natural man is not unable to respond to the teachings of Jesus, then the “grants” and “draws” can be contained in the teachings themselves.

For example, let’s consider the pilot of a commercial aircraft. The pilot has a flight plan that goes from Houston to Chicago. By opening the door of the aircraft and lowering the ramp, he grants the passengers who climb onto the plane the ability to travel to Chicago. By proclaiming that the plane is now seating passengers, he is drawing passengers to the flight. It is not required to see the pilot as picking which passengers would board his plane, or him carrying unable to walk comatose passengers onto his plane, to accurately see him as drawing and granting passage.

In our estimation, this is a more biblical view of what Jesus is talking about in John 6. The Gospels see Jesus as actively hiding his identity from the Jews (Mat 16:20; Mark 9:9, 3:12, 8:30, 4:11-12; 33-34). Let’s look at that last reference.

“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ” ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ …With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.“ (Mark 4:11-12; 33-34, emphasis mine)

Jesus sees the Jews He is hiding the truth from as able to “turn and be forgiven” because if He did not hide it from them “otherwise they might” do so! This is how Dr. Flowers puts it:

We believe that Jesus is only revealing His identity to His closest followers and hiding the truth from the rest . . . We understand that Jesus is using parabolic language to blind the self-righteous Jews of that day from recognizing Him as their long awaited Messiah. . . That, and that alone, is the reason His Jewish audience was incapable of coming to Him in faith (John 12:39-41).

This is much more consistent with Jesus’ own teaching in John 6. The Arminian article quotes John 6:44 but does not quote v. 45 where Jesus explains what He means by “draws/grants”. Look at the half the paragraph and see the flow of John’s thought:

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—” (emphasis mine)

So the Jews are disbelieving and grumbling about Him and Jesus explains why they are disbelieving. He doesn’t say “because God has not given you the grace to believe”. He says “Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me”. So if they had done their homework on the Prophets they would recognize Jesus as the Messiah and come to him. They have not and we see through out the Gospels that Jesus hides further revelation from them so they will not.

THE POWER OF WORDS
The Arminian author goes on to make a strange argument that I have yet to hear in this discussion. I appreciate his direct approach in dealing with Dr. Flower’s actual position, something I have rarely seen.

Someone who denies this understanding of prevenient grace may argue, as does Leighton Flowers, “we must not presume that just because man is born fallen that the gospel is not up for the task of enabling the fallen man to respond to its appeal for reconciliation from that fall.” (link) (emphases added) But the message or words of the Good News are not magic words: words do not enable a person to believe in Jesus.

If “magic” accurately describes Dr. Flower’s position that the words of the Gospel enable, then I do not see how “magic” does not also apply to the super secret inner prevenient grace that comes with the proclamation of the Gospel. But, of course, Dr. Flowers does not mean to say that the words are a magic spell, but that men cannot believe in what they have not heard (Rom 10:14), and by hearing are thereby enabled to believe.

Now comes the author’s strange argument about words:

Words can inform an individual regarding information, but they cannot spiritually enable a person to assume action, and spiritual enablement is in focus here, since a carnal or natural person “does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness” to that person; indeed, that individual cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised, examined, or discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).

This is some philosophical gobbly-gook right here. He has accepted a philosophical presupposition, without biblical evidence, about what words can and cannot do. I cannot give some specific exegetical rebuttal because these are philosophical distinctions without reference in the Scriptures. Words can inform but do not spur people onto action? That’s silly on its face. Every political movement in the history of mankind, including the Church, has assumed that words can move people to action. He is forced to create a category of “spiritual action” to not make it sound silly and it fails.

Rom 10: 17, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”

The word of Christ is the means by which faith comes. Seems like words are powerful.

His 1 Cor 2:14 reference is Paul talking to Christians about gaining spiritual wisdom and he’s saying that Christians who are living according to their nature will not gain that wisdom. “The things of the Spirit of God” are not code for “repentance unto salvation”. Paul tells us what he means in the previous paragraph and it is wisdom, not accepting the message of the Gospel.

I called this argument strange because, perhaps without realizing it, the author has admitted that he believes the Gospel is not powerful enough to accomplish what it was sent to do (1 Cor 15:1-2; 2 Cor 5:20). The Gospel just informs, it can do nothing else. This view is consistent with prevenient grace, I have just never heard someone who believes in Total Inability admit it before. I respect the consistency.

I have good reasons why I think the Bible teaches that men can and must respond to the Gospel. Here are some passages that teach that unregenerate men can and must seek God. Does this seeking earn him salvation? Of course not. Does this seeking mean he can fulfill the law? Nay. But it does mean that the unregenerate are not corpses.

“At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”” – Acts 10: 1-6

“And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,”‭‭ – Acts‬ ‭17:26-27‬ ‭

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”‭‭ -Isaiah‬ ‭55:6-7‬ ‭

“Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.”‭‭ -Zephaniah‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭

“And he did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the Lord.” -‭‭2 Chronicles‬ ‭12:14‬ ‭

“Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O Lord.” –‭Psalms‬ ‭83:16‬ ‭

“Then Jehoshaphat was afraid and set his face to seek the Lord, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.”‭‭ -2 Chronicles‬ ‭20:3‬ ‭

“For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.” –Luke‬ ‭12:30-31‬

‭“He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.”‭‭ -Romans‬ ‭2:6-8‬ ‭

“And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.” –‭‭Psalms‬ ‭9:10‬

“And those who had set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came after them from all the tribes of Israel to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord, the God of their fathers.” –2 Chronicles‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭

Is the Gospel is not powerful enough to accomplish what it was sent to do (1 Cor 15:1-2; 2 Cor 5:20) @brightfame52?

J.

Those ho are in the flesh cannot please God, the carnal mind is enmity against God. Man cannot do anything spiritual until God is pleased to regenerate him and given him spiritual life from the dead.

 

[brightfame52]

Absolutely! Many are trapped in Calvinism and need to come out of it!

J.

Calvinism, Tulip is the Gospel friend, the Doctrines of Grace, so be careful

 

[Johann]

Those ho are in the flesh cannot please God, the carnal mind is enmity against God. Man cannot do anything spiritual until God is pleased to regenerate him and given him spiritual life from the dead.

A question:

Were the early Church Fathers Calvinistic?

If not, where does your doctrine come from?

J.

 

[civic]

Calvinism, Tulip is the Gospel friend, the Doctrines of Grace, so be careful

Nope it’s not in the Bible it’s made up from Calvin and his followers

 

[Joy]

Yes, one must be careful not to fall into the false gospel found in Calvinism.

Jesus is the Gospel; Calvinism is not

Some say that Calvinism is the gospel. I say that Jesus is the gospel. There are no four laws, five points, or six steps to the gospel. There is only Jesus.

redeeminggod.com

 

[Johann]

I would agree with that.

Man by nature, carnal mind cannot submit to the Law of God,hence cannot submit to God, cant separate God from His Law Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And their will isnt free to change that !

We can remedy this-quickly, but you are set in your ways denying others entrance eis Messiah Yeshua and His Chen and the Ruach and אֲבִינוּ שֶׁבַּשָּׁמַיִם (Avinu she'bashamayim).

Not being facetious.

J.

 

[Johann]

Yes, one must be careful not to fall into the false gospel found in Calvinism.

Jesus is the Gospel; Calvinism is not

Some say that Calvinism is the gospel. I say that Jesus is the gospel. There are no four laws, five points, or six steps to the gospel. There is only Jesus.

redeeminggod.com

Lol!
Hi @Joy welcome to the Forum!

J.

 

[brightfame52]

A question:

Were the early Church Fathers Calvinistic?

If not, where does your doctrine come from?

J.

Dont know go read them for yourself