An Article on free will

[Johann]

Its a spiritual inability remember ? A carnal person can believe naturally, just like a devil can believe James 2

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

A devil and a natural man can believe in God, but its not a Gospel believing that pleases God and obeys God. See True believing requires a spiritual obedience and love for the Truth Rom 10:16


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


can a devil do that ? No, neither can a person in the flesh because they cannot please God,or obey God.

Paul’s lament reflects a continuation of Israel’s history of rejecting God’s revelation and messengers.

This pattern is deeply rooted in the Old Testament and is central to Paul’s explanation of why Israel has not fully embraced the gospel.

a. Israel’s Historical Privilege

Israel was uniquely chosen by God to receive His covenant, the law, and the promises (Romans 9:4-5). These privileges should have prepared them for the coming of the Messiah.
The message of the gospel fulfills the promises made to Israel, as Jesus is the culmination of the law (Romans 10:4).

b. Prophetic Witness to Israel’s Resistance
Paul quotes Isaiah 53:1 to highlight that the rejection of the gospel is not a new phenomenon but was foreseen by the prophets.

The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 was rejected by the very people he came to save, a pattern mirrored in the rejection of Christ.
Other prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel also experienced Israel’s resistance to God’s word, showing their long-standing disobedience.


c. Rejection of the Messiah
The rejection of Christ as the Messiah represents the culmination of Israel’s resistance. Despite the miraculous signs and fulfillment of prophecy, many Jews clung to their pursuit of righteousness through the law (Romans 10:3), rather than submitting to the righteousness of God through faith.

2. Theological Implications
Paul’s reflection on Israel’s rejection of the gospel serves a dual purpose: to explain their unbelief in light of God’s sovereignty and to highlight the universal scope of salvation. It raises profound questions about God’s promises, human responsibility, and divine election.

a. God’s Sovereignty and Election

Paul emphasizes that Israel’s rejection does not signify a failure of God’s word (Romans 9:6). Instead, it reveals the mystery of election: not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, but the true Israel consists of the children of the promise.

This tension between divine sovereignty and human responsibility is central to Paul’s argument. While God’s purposes are being fulfilled, Israel remains accountable for their unbelief.


b. The Role of Faith in Salvation
The rejection highlights the shift from the old covenant, based on the law, to the new covenant, centered on faith in Christ. Paul explains that righteousness is no longer attained through works of the law but through faith in Christ (Romans 10:9-10).
This introduces the concept of the "obedience of faith," where faith is not merely intellectual assent but involves a total submission to the gospel.


c. Inclusivity of the Gospel
Israel’s rejection opens the door for the Gentiles to be grafted into the people of God (Romans 11:11-12). Paul sees this as part of God’s redemptive plan to create one unified body of believers.
However, Israel’s current unbelief is not final. Paul asserts that a future remnant of Israel will turn to Christ (Romans 11:26), demonstrating God’s faithfulness to His covenant promises.


d. The Remnant Theology
Paul introduces the concept of a faithful remnant, rooted in Old Testament theology (e.g., Elijah’s time in 1 Kings 19). Even though the majority of Israel rejected the gospel, a remnant believed, signifying that God’s purposes are still at work within Israel.
3. Broader Implications for Humanity
While the immediate focus is Israel, their rejection of the gospel reveals universal truths about human nature and the need for grace.

a. Human Resistance to God
Israel’s rejection is emblematic of humanity’s broader resistance to God’s revelation. Left to their own devices, people reject the truth of the gospel, requiring the work of the Holy Spirit to bring about faith.


b. The Necessity of Preaching
Paul’s broader argument in Romans 10 emphasizes the necessity of proclaiming the gospel: “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?” (Romans 10:14). Despite resistance, the gospel must be preached to all, because faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17).


c. God’s Patience and Plan
Israel’s rejection also demonstrates God’s patience and long-term redemptive plan. Paul insists that God’s ultimate purpose is mercy for both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 11:32).


Summary
Israel’s rejection of the gospel is both a fulfillment of prophetic warnings and a stepping stone in God’s plan for universal salvation. Historically, it reflects a continuation of their resistance to divine revelation, culminating in the rejection of Christ. Theologically, it underscores the sovereignty of God, the necessity of faith, and the inclusivity of the gospel. However, Paul’s argument ends on a note of hope, affirming that Israel’s unbelief is neither total nor final, and God’s promises to His people remain unshaken.

J.

 

[Kermos]

Are you well?

Your words

"then you fail to understand basic English because Jesus literally says that people do not have the ability to judge what is right on their own initiative when He asks them why they do not have the ability"

Thank you for proving that I did not write "cannot" in reference to "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right
(Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57), so you argue with yourself because you persist with "cannot". You are dead wrong about man having free-will to choose God, and, the Truth (John 14:6) is that no Word of God indicates man was imparted a free-will to choose God. God is exclusively Sovereign in man's salvation as shown in the past posts in this exchange in Truth (John 14:6).

You cannot choose God, and you always fail to judge rightly in your own initiative to choose the Righteous God because the Word of God says such between the below and above.

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).

You wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL's Self-exaltation		Exaltation of Christ
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for you can choose to believe in me apart from Me (TomL 15:5).		I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the the Holy Word of God.

Moreover, you do not believe Jesus (John 5:45-47) when He says "see" (John 3:3) as can be seen in when you wrote "John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience yet he can see the Kingdom of God (TomL 3:3).		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD - THE GIVER OF LIFE AND SIGHT!!!

 

[Larry]

Its a spiritual inability remember ? A carnal person can believe naturally, just like a devil can believe James 2

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

A devil and a natural man can believe in God, but its not a Gospel believing that pleases God and obeys God. See True believing requires a spiritual obedience and love for the Truth Rom 10:16


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


can a devil do that ? No, neither can a person in the flesh because they cannot please God,or obey God.

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 1:18-20 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Read More...)

John 1:1-2 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Read More...)

Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Jeremiah 29:13 - And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

John 3:8 - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 1:21 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Psalms 90:2 - Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 3:16-17 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Read More...)

John 20:29 - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

James 1:17 - Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Psalms 19:1 - (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Larry]

We talking about two different things friend.

I hope so.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 1:18-20 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Read More...)

John 1:1-2 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Read More...)

Revelation 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Jeremiah 29:13 - And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

John 3:8 - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 1:21 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Psalms 90:2 - Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 3:16-17 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Read More...)

John 20:29 - Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

James 1:17 - Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Psalms 19:1 - (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Romans 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

And ?

 

[TomL]

Thank you for proving that I did not write "cannot" in reference to "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right
(Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57), so you argue with yourself because you persist with "cannot". You are dead wrong about man having free-will to choose God, and, the Truth (John 14:6) is that no Word of God indicates man was imparted a free-will to choose God. God is exclusively Sovereign in man's salvation as shown in the past posts in this exchange in Truth (John 14:6).

Is English a second language for you?

"then you fail to understand basic English because Jesus literally says that people do not have the ability to judge what is right on their own initiative when He asks them why they do not have the ability"
you have literally stated they cannot judge what is right
BTW



Joshua 24:15–31 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve Yahweh, for he is a holy and jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake Yahweh and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster to you; he will destroy you after he has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve Yahweh.” 22 And Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves to serve Yahweh.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 He said, “Remove the foreign gods that are in your midst, and incline your hearts to Yahweh the God of Israel.” 24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve Yahweh our God, and we will listen to his voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people on that day, and he established for them a statute and a judgment at Shechem. 26 Then Joshua wrote these words in a scroll of the law of God, and he took a large stone and set it up there under a large tree, which is at the shrine of Yahweh. 27 And Joshua said to all the people, “Look, this stone will be a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of Yahweh that he spoke with us. It will be as a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua sent the people away to their inheritance. 29 After these things Joshua son of Nun servant of Yahweh died; he was one hundred and ten years old. 30 They buried him in the territory of his inheritance, at Timnath-Serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served Yahweh all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders who lived long after Joshua, and who had known all the work that Yahweh did for Israel.


These Israelites choose to and did serve Yahweh

 

[TomL]

Its a spiritual inability remember ? A carnal person can believe naturally, just like a devil can believe James 2

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

A devil and a natural man can believe in God, but its not a Gospel believing that pleases God and obeys God. See True believing requires a spiritual obedience and love for the Truth Rom 10:16


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


can a devil do that ? No, neither can a person in the flesh because they cannot please God,or obey God.

Sorry your doctrine of total inability hold they are incapable of believing

It is an error

Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.

and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe

John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”


so why do you not address these

Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.

and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe

John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”

 

[Kermos]

Word of caution, @Kermos-always respond thoughtfully rather than react emotionally. This way, you’ll stay in control of the conversation. You know I hold to free will.

God bless!

J.

Praise the Lord! I am so very relieved to hear from you, Johann! I was concerned about you after our correspondence ceased.

I appreciate the advice.

God bless you, Johann!

 

[Johann]

Praise the Lord! I am so very relieved to hear from you, Johann! I was concerned about you after our correspondence ceased.

I appreciate the advice.

God bless you, Johann!

I was banned brother but it is all good now.
God bless and stay strong in our Lord Jesus Christ @Kermos.

Johann.

 

[Johann]

Its a spiritual inability remember ? A carnal person can believe naturally, just like a devil can believe James 2

There has been no small amount of debate over the idiomatic use of the word “DEAD” within the New Testament. But what does that term mean in the manner that it is used in the scriptures?

If it is taken too literally it would mean that the “DEAD” could have no response, positive or negative, to the inspired truth of God’s gracious revelation. After all, an actual corpse can do nothing except passively lie there. No one takes the term quite that literally. We all affirm that the “DEAD” are at least able to respond negatively to the gracious truth of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). But can the “DEAD” respond positively even in light of God’s life giving truth?

Calvinists insist, without much biblical foundation, that the term connotes an innate moral inability inherently passed down to every human being as a result of the fall of Adam. This moral incapacity from birth is of course a part of God’s divine plan from the very beginning. In other words, on Calvinism, God decreed that everyone born in this fallen condition would be morally unable to respond positively to God’s own appeals and pleas for reconciliation from that fall.

Let that sink in.

But, what if the Calvinist is wrong? What if the biblical use of the term “DEAD” does not mean that everyone is born without the ability to desire anything other than hating and rejecting God and His clearly revealed truth?

That is my thesis here:

“DEAD” DOESN’T MEAN INNATE MORAL INABILITY

Let’s look at the uses of the term “DEAD” in the scripture for you to decide:

1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?

2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).

3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”‭‭ – James‬ ‭1:13-15‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”

4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.”‭‭ – Romans‬ ‭7:7-11‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?

5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-3, 6‬

This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.

It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.

“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).

They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.

Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”

The strongest rebuttal I’ve heard to this argument thus far is “Leighton, you just don’t think dead means dead!”

In reality, I’m looking for the actual biblical meaning of this term while Calvinists seem to be presuming theirs.

Dead means Dead!

There has been no small amount of debate over the idiomatic use of the word “DEAD” within the New Testament. But what does that term mean in the manner that it is used in the scr…

soteriology101.com

J.

 

[brightfame52]

There has been no small amount of debate over the idiomatic use of the word “DEAD” within the New Testament. But what does that term mean in the manner that it is used in the scriptures?

If it is taken too literally it would mean that the “DEAD” could have no response, positive or negative, to the inspired truth of God’s gracious revelation. After all, an actual corpse can do nothing except passively lie there. No one takes the term quite that literally. We all affirm that the “DEAD” are at least able to respond negatively to the gracious truth of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). But can the “DEAD” respond positively even in light of God’s life giving truth?

Calvinists insist, without much biblical foundation, that the term connotes an innate moral inability inherently passed down to every human being as a result of the fall of Adam. This moral incapacity from birth is of course a part of God’s divine plan from the very beginning. In other words, on Calvinism, God decreed that everyone born in this fallen condition would be morally unable to respond positively to God’s own appeals and pleas for reconciliation from that fall.

Let that sink in.

But, what if the Calvinist is wrong? What if the biblical use of the term “DEAD” does not mean that everyone is born without the ability to desire anything other than hating and rejecting God and His clearly revealed truth?

That is my thesis here:

“DEAD” DOESN’T MEAN INNATE MORAL INABILITY

Let’s look at the uses of the term “DEAD” in the scripture for you to decide:

1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?

2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).

3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”‭‭ – James‬ ‭1:13-15‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”

4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.”‭‭ – Romans‬ ‭7:7-11‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?

5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-3, 6‬

This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.

It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.

“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).

They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.

Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”

The strongest rebuttal I’ve heard to this argument thus far is “Leighton, you just don’t think dead means dead!”

In reality, I’m looking for the actual biblical meaning of this term while Calvinists seem to be presuming theirs.

Dead means Dead!

There has been no small amount of debate over the idiomatic use of the word “DEAD” within the New Testament. But what does that term mean in the manner that it is used in the scr…

soteriology101.com

J.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry your doctrine of total inability hold they are incapable of believing

It is an error

Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.

and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe

John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”


so why do you not address these

Luke 8:13 (LEB) — 13 And those on the rock are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, and these do not have enough root, who believe for a time and in a time of testing fall away.

and why it was necessary to harden these so they do not believe

John 12:40 (LEB) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.”

Its a spiritual inability remember ? A carnal person can believe naturally, just like a devil can believe James 2

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

A devil and a natural man can believe in God, but its not a Gospel believing that pleases God and obeys God. See True believing requires a spiritual obedience and love for the Truth Rom 10:16


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


can a devil do that ? No, neither can a person in the flesh because they cannot please God,or obey God.

 

[brightfame52]

There has been no small amount of debate over the idiomatic use of the word “DEAD” within the New Testament. But what does that term mean in the manner that it is used in the scriptures?

If it is taken too literally it would mean that the “DEAD” could have no response, positive or negative, to the inspired truth of God’s gracious revelation. After all, an actual corpse can do nothing except passively lie there. No one takes the term quite that literally. We all affirm that the “DEAD” are at least able to respond negatively to the gracious truth of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). But can the “DEAD” respond positively even in light of God’s life giving truth?

Calvinists insist, without much biblical foundation, that the term connotes an innate moral inability inherently passed down to every human being as a result of the fall of Adam. This moral incapacity from birth is of course a part of God’s divine plan from the very beginning. In other words, on Calvinism, God decreed that everyone born in this fallen condition would be morally unable to respond positively to God’s own appeals and pleas for reconciliation from that fall.

Let that sink in.

But, what if the Calvinist is wrong? What if the biblical use of the term “DEAD” does not mean that everyone is born without the ability to desire anything other than hating and rejecting God and His clearly revealed truth?

That is my thesis here:

“DEAD” DOESN’T MEAN INNATE MORAL INABILITY

Let’s look at the uses of the term “DEAD” in the scripture for you to decide:

1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?

2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).

3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”‭‭ – James‬ ‭1:13-15‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”

4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.”‭‭ – Romans‬ ‭7:7-11‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?

5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-3, 6‬

This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.

It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.

“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).

They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.

Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”

The strongest rebuttal I’ve heard to this argument thus far is “Leighton, you just don’t think dead means dead!”

In reality, I’m looking for the actual biblical meaning of this term while Calvinists seem to be presuming theirs.

Dead means Dead!

There has been no small amount of debate over the idiomatic use of the word “DEAD” within the New Testament. But what does that term mean in the manner that it is used in the scr…

soteriology101.com

J.

Aint no debate, man is spiritually dead in sin by nature.

 

[MTMattie]

Its a spiritual inability remember ? A carnal person can believe naturally, just like a devil can believe James 2

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

A devil and a natural man can believe in God, but its not a Gospel believing that pleases God and obeys God. See True believing requires a spiritual obedience and love for the Truth Rom 10:16


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


can a devil do that ? No, neither can a person in the flesh because they cannot please God,or obey God.

But you believe and I believe, and neither of us is believing as a natural man.... correct. And neither of us are in the flesh when it comes to this... correct?

Yet we are opposites on a great deal yet we both see with our own eyes what the Holy Book is saying to us.

I had a spiritual rebirth... did you? The Holy Spirit lives in me... does he also live in you?

 

[Johann]

Aint no debate, man is spiritually dead in sin by nature.

Come on, man, this is an Apologetics Forum, and the debate is in full swing.


The early church fathers (ECFs) wrote extensively about free will, often addressing it in the context of human responsibility, God’s grace, and the problem of sin. Their views reflected a variety of perspectives, but many emphasized the reality of human free will, especially in opposition to deterministic or fatalistic beliefs, such as those found in Gnosticism. Below are notable quotes from key church fathers on free will:

1. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
Justin emphasized human responsibility and the role of free will in moral choices:

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that one man be good and another wicked, neither is the one meritorious nor the other to be blamed." (First Apology, Chapter 43)
Justin insists that humans are free moral agents, responsible for their actions, and rejects the idea that events are predetermined by fate.

2. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
Irenaeus highlighted the necessity of free will for genuine love and moral accountability:

"But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff." (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 4, Section 3)

"God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God." (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37, Section 1)

Irenaeus strongly affirmed free will as a gift from God, necessary for moral responsibility and the ability to choose obedience to God.

3. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD)
Clement viewed free will as essential for spiritual growth and moral action:

"Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Stromata, Book 2, Chapter 4)

"It is within the capacity of everyone to be saved by means of voluntary actions." (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

Clement affirmed the compatibility of divine grace and human free will, emphasizing that salvation involves human cooperation.

4. Origen of Alexandria (c. 185–253 AD)
Origen extensively discussed free will in the context of human responsibility and God’s justice:

"This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the Church, that every rational soul is possessed of free will and choice, and that it has to struggle against the devil and his angels, and the opposing powers, because they strive to burden it with sins; while we, if we live rightly and prudently, endeavour to shake ourselves free from a burden of this kind." (De Principiis, Preface, Section 5)

"The freedom of the will is not destroyed by the foreknowledge of God." (De Principiis, Book 3, Chapter 1, Section 15)

Origen maintained that humans possess true freedom to choose good or evil, even within God’s foreknowledge and overarching sovereignty.

5. Tertullian (c. 160–220 AD)
Tertullian defended human free will in the context of moral accountability:

"I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power... In this manner also the liberty of man will be established: God’s judgment on him likewise maintained." (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 6)
Tertullian argued that human freedom was foundational to God’s justice and the legitimacy of divine judgment.

6. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)
Early in his career, Augustine strongly affirmed human free will:

"We sin by our own free will, and this free will is also the gift of God." (On Free Will, Book 3, Chapter 18)
However, after engaging in debates with the Pelagians, Augustine increasingly emphasized the necessity of divine grace:

"Without the grace of God, free will is not capable of anything good, either by thinking, or willing, or acting." (Against Julian, Book 2, Chapter 8)
Augustine balanced his early views by later asserting that while humans have free will, it is weakened by sin and requires God’s grace for salvation.

Summary of ECF Views on Free Will:
Affirmation of Free Will: Most early church fathers strongly affirmed human free will as integral to moral responsibility, love, and obedience to God.

God’s Role: While emphasizing free will, they recognized the necessity of God’s grace to enable humans to live righteously, particularly in post-Augustinian thought.

Rejecting Fatalism: Many ECFs wrote in opposition to deterministic beliefs, particularly those associated with Gnosticism and pagan fatalism.

Early vs. Later Augustine: Augustine’s writings reflect a shift from a strong emphasis on free will to a greater focus on God’s grace in response to the Pelagian controversy.

The ECFs provide a rich foundation for understanding the interplay between free will and divine grace in early Christian thought.

J.

 

[brightfame52]

But you believe and I believe, and neither of us is believing as a natural man.... correct. And neither of us are in the flesh when it comes to this... correct?

Yet we are opposites on a great deal yet we both see with our own eyes what the Holy Book is saying to us.

I had a spiritual rebirth... did you? The Holy Spirit lives in me... does he also live in you?

Its a spiritual inability remember ?

 

[brightfame52]

Come on, man, this is an Apologetics Forum, and the debate is in full swing.


The early church fathers (ECFs) wrote extensively about free will, often addressing it in the context of human responsibility, God’s grace, and the problem of sin. Their views reflected a variety of perspectives, but many emphasized the reality of human free will, especially in opposition to deterministic or fatalistic beliefs, such as those found in Gnosticism. Below are notable quotes from key church fathers on free will:

1. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
Justin emphasized human responsibility and the role of free will in moral choices:

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that one man be good and another wicked, neither is the one meritorious nor the other to be blamed." (First Apology, Chapter 43)
Justin insists that humans are free moral agents, responsible for their actions, and rejects the idea that events are predetermined by fate.

2. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
Irenaeus highlighted the necessity of free will for genuine love and moral accountability:

"But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff." (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 4, Section 3)

"God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God." (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37, Section 1)

Irenaeus strongly affirmed free will as a gift from God, necessary for moral responsibility and the ability to choose obedience to God.

3. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD)
Clement viewed free will as essential for spiritual growth and moral action:

"Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Stromata, Book 2, Chapter 4)

"It is within the capacity of everyone to be saved by means of voluntary actions." (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

Clement affirmed the compatibility of divine grace and human free will, emphasizing that salvation involves human cooperation.

4. Origen of Alexandria (c. 185–253 AD)
Origen extensively discussed free will in the context of human responsibility and God’s justice:

"This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the Church, that every rational soul is possessed of free will and choice, and that it has to struggle against the devil and his angels, and the opposing powers, because they strive to burden it with sins; while we, if we live rightly and prudently, endeavour to shake ourselves free from a burden of this kind." (De Principiis, Preface, Section 5)

"The freedom of the will is not destroyed by the foreknowledge of God." (De Principiis, Book 3, Chapter 1, Section 15)

Origen maintained that humans possess true freedom to choose good or evil, even within God’s foreknowledge and overarching sovereignty.

5. Tertullian (c. 160–220 AD)
Tertullian defended human free will in the context of moral accountability:

"I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power... In this manner also the liberty of man will be established: God’s judgment on him likewise maintained." (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 6)
Tertullian argued that human freedom was foundational to God’s justice and the legitimacy of divine judgment.

6. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)
Early in his career, Augustine strongly affirmed human free will:

"We sin by our own free will, and this free will is also the gift of God." (On Free Will, Book 3, Chapter 18)
However, after engaging in debates with the Pelagians, Augustine increasingly emphasized the necessity of divine grace:

"Without the grace of God, free will is not capable of anything good, either by thinking, or willing, or acting." (Against Julian, Book 2, Chapter 8)
Augustine balanced his early views by later asserting that while humans have free will, it is weakened by sin and requires God’s grace for salvation.

Summary of ECF Views on Free Will:
Affirmation of Free Will: Most early church fathers strongly affirmed human free will as integral to moral responsibility, love, and obedience to God.

God’s Role: While emphasizing free will, they recognized the necessity of God’s grace to enable humans to live righteously, particularly in post-Augustinian thought.

Rejecting Fatalism: Many ECFs wrote in opposition to deterministic beliefs, particularly those associated with Gnosticism and pagan fatalism.

Early vs. Later Augustine: Augustine’s writings reflect a shift from a strong emphasis on free will to a greater focus on God’s grace in response to the Pelagian controversy.

The ECFs provide a rich foundation for understanding the interplay between free will and divine grace in early Christian thought.

J.

Man by nature, carnal mind cannot submit to the Law of God,hence cannot submit to God, cant separate God from His Law Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice the carnal mind is enmity against God as well, so the carnal mind hates God. The word enmity echthra:
hatred, its the same word in Gal 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

That cannot be changed as long as we are unregenerate in the flesh

 

[Johann]

Man by nature, carnal mind cannot submit to the Law of God,hence cannot submit to God, cant separate God from His Law Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice the carnal mind is enmity against God as well, so the carnal mind hates God. The word enmity echthra:
hatred, its the same word in Gal 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

That cannot be changed as long as we are unregenerate in the flesh

Is this your way of debating?

J.

 

[civic]

I hope so.

2 different bibles, 2 different gospels, 2 different Christs,

 

[civic]

Man by nature, carnal mind cannot submit to the Law of God,hence cannot submit to God, cant separate God from His Law Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Notice the carnal mind is enmity against God as well, so the carnal mind hates God. The word enmity echthra:
hatred, its the same word in Gal 5:20

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

That cannot be changed as long as we are unregenerate in the flesh

strawman- many regenerate live and operate in the flesh and Paul refers to them as carnal and not spiritual.

next fallacy