MTMattie
Active member
Yes, but for everyone who would accept, and believe and have faith in him.
He died for one thief, not the other.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
He died for one thief, not the other.
Parker
Member
He also died for those that rejected Him. One thief accepted His gift of salvation, not the other. His gift of salvation is universal—to all who will believe.
For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Romans 10:11
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:13
MTMattie
Active member
yes, but you have to believe
Seems like another who denies his own wordsYep
Parker
Member
Right on. Thats why we are called "Believers" Some take that one to the extreme saying believing is a work. That in some way we earn our salvation.
First, I'd like to thank you, John Evens, because I have repeatedly stated "Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ", and believers in free-will come back with arguments instead of agreement very frequently.
Your writing of "We can choose to believe and accept the Gospel or choose to reject it" is quite the opposite of the Lord Jesus Christ saying:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!
civic
Well-known member
Both could of repented and believed in Him but only one did
brightfame52
Well-known member
He died for them that believe ! Those who remain in unbelief, He didnt die for. They were not His Sheep Jn 10:26-27
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
civic
Well-known member
Nope He was taking to a specific group at a specific time and place.
civic
Well-known member
1-Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
2-Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
3-Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,
4-Galatians 5:4-7
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
5-Hebrews 12:14-15
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
6-2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.
7-Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.
8-Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
9-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
10-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
11-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
12-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”
13-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”
14-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”
15-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
16-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”
17-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
18- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
19- Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
20- Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert.
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
conclusion: You see the doctrine of irresistible grace is unfounded and there are many unproven presuppositions built into Gods Sovereignty and mans condition and free will to choose or reject God. God does not force Himself on anyone for that by definition would be unloving, just as it would be for you or I to force another person to love you.
hope this helps !!!
Parker
Member
Jesus is talking about the Twelve in John 15:16
brightfame52
Well-known member
He died for them that believe ! Those who remain in unbelief, He didnt die for. They were not His Sheep Jn 10:26-27
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
MTMattie
Active member
Disagree......
Who exactly did Jesus choose? John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15,
Disciples’ Relation to Each Other
12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 This I command you, that you love one another.JESUS CHOSE HIS DECIPLES.
Who exactly was Jesus talking to in John 6:29?
Words to the People
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”And Jesus ws talking to who in John 3: 3-8?
Why Nicodemus, of course and it is certain that Nicodemus was not called but by his own will wanted to know.
OR John 3:21, John 15:5 , Matthew 11:25 ,John 13:34 ,John 15:19 the same passage
In all of these remaining Jesus was either talking to His disciples (not the people at large) or to the people.
None of these indicate that Jesus said he called everyone.
The very closest you might make a case for is in Math 11: 28-30
28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is [aa]easy and My burden is light.”
But this is an invitation to choose... it is not a direct calling.
You and @civic (based on his agreement Like of your post) have no problem adulterating the sayings of others.
The sentence "He does not say they cannot he asks why they do not judge what is right" is a letter for letter quote of your writing that God caused me to attribute to you as occurs in post #4,980, so your attribution to me is ludicrous; therefore, the following is accurate.
Look carefully at the post to which you replied because I did not write "cannot" in reference to "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right
(Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57), so you argue with yourself because you persist with "cannot". You are dead wrong about man having free-will to choose God, and, the Truth (John 14:6) is that no Word of God indicates man was imparted a free-will to choose God. God is exclusively Sovereign in man's salvation as shown in the past posts in this exchange in Truth (John 14:6).
You cannot choose God, and you always fail to judge rightly in your own initiative to choose the Righteous God because the Word of God says such between the below and above.
You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
You wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| TomL's Self-exaltation | Exaltation of Christ | |
| I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for you can choose to believe in me apart from Me (TomL 15:5). | I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5). |
Moreover, you do not believe Jesus (John 5:45-47) when He says "see" (John 3:3) as can be seen in when you wrote "John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of TomL | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience yet he can see the Kingdom of God (TomL 3:3). | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3). |
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD - THE GIVER OF LIFE AND SIGHT!!!
Why do you deny your own words
Do you imagine you can escape them by speaking about me?
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
It's funny how he projects on to others what he himself does
You mentioned a doctrine name that I did not mention in the post to which you replied, and self-willed you revile the graciously awesome Lord Jesus Christ's Majestic sayings (2 Peter 2:9-10) about God choosing man while man chooses not God as appear in the post to which you replied. The Lord willing, I plan to visit every single passage that you mentioned in subsequent posts, but first God has me address your "conclusion".
God loves so very much that God caused me to proclaim the Truth (John 14:6) to @john Evans or anyone else with eyes to see or ears to hear:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
Your writing exhibits a failure in understanding the Love of God for it is written "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, see the phrase "love is from God" meaning God is the source of true love).
Continuing in the awesome Love detail, the Holy Spirit reveals "God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him" (1 John 4:16, see the phrase "[b}one who abides in Love[/b]" is equivocated with "one who abides" "in God" which extends from God's exclusivity with "God is Love").
Clearly, your post reveals that the wonderful "love is from God" (1 John 4:7) is reprehensible to your heart (Matthew 15:16-19).
Grace is unearned love.
Mercy is undeserved forgiveness.
THE RESISTIBLE EARNABLE GRACE OF GOD IS YOUR PREACHING
In other words, you believe the unearnable Love of Almighty God is earnable by man or resistible by man.
The Love of God says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:37), but you oppose the Sovereign God with your heart’s treasure that God's "grace is unfounded and there are many unproven presuppositions built into Gods Sovereignty and mans condition and free will to choose or reject God".
The Word of God says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:44), so you reject the Word of God with your "resistible grace" concept.
Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter:
the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties
(2 Peter 2:9-10).
So, self-willed people are under the wrath of God according to blessed Apostolic testimony, but you preach that self-willed people are under the love of God.According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) is blessed Apostolic testimony.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
The Free-willian Philosophy is God's Grace is so weak that the love of God controls no one.
Now, it is time to move on to the examination of how your resistible love of God (a.k.a. "resistable grace") concept corrupts Holy Scripture.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!
Let us view your earnable resistible love of God in contrast to the Word of God.
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation adulterates the Word of God as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your posts:
| civic's Self-exaltation | Exaltation of King Jesus | |
| And he sent out his slaves to summon those who had been summoned to the wedding feast, and they were able to earn the Love of God by self-willingly choosing him, yet they were unwilling to come. (civic 23:3). | And he sent out his slaves to summon those who had been summoned to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 22:3) |
According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) is blessed Apostolic testimony.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
This post is an integral continuation with post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Reststable and Earnable.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LIVING GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST!!!
civic
Well-known member
you reject the teaching of Jesus where I provided dozens of verses teaching man must believe. They choose to believe and be saved or not to believe and be damned.
next fallacy
