An Article on free will

[Kermos]

Let me know when you are going to stop calling Jesus a liar and avoiding arguments

sorry you ignored scripture, context, Greek scholarship and commentary

All repeat stuff which ignores rebuttal and is simply repeated over and over

But worse of all you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do

As God has caused me to write previously, we Christians bear fruit of the Spirit because our good works that we do are governed by God for this says the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); therefore, your "you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do" is you bearing false witness against me again.

John 15:16

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.

Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.

1. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.

In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.

Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley.

You propounded "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

Furthermore, you answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

continued to post #3,262

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY REDEEMER, LORD JESUS!!!

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #3,261

Viz

John 6:29

John 6:27 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Verse 28 defines for us the works of God

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

as what are we to do'

You posted nothing to prove your point, simply asserting your claim

In the meantime you ignored contextual exegesis

Jesus told them they must work

3rd the Jews clearly understood it was they who were to believe

John 6:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

fourth Christ affirmed there is something they must do never correcting them

John 6:32–40 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

You have isolated verse 29 from its context and assumed its meaning

you ignored the commentary of your Calvinist peers

. What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? That is, such things as God will approve. This was the earnest inquiry of men who were seeking to be saved. They had crossed the Sea of Tiberias to seek him; they supposed him to be the Messiah, and they sincerely desired to be taught the way of life; yet it is observable that they expected to find that way as other sinners commonly do—by their works. The idea of doing something to merit salvation is one of the last that the sinner ever surrenders.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

Verse 29

5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.

g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.

Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.

Jesus sets them straight: The work of God—i.e. what God requires—is faith. This is not faith in the abstract, an existential trust without a coherent object. Rather, they must believe in the one [God] has sent[1] Pillar New Tetament commentary D.A. Carson

John_6:28-29. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, —

The chief work, the greatest work which you can do. Spurgeon commentary

[1] D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John (The Pillar New Testament Commentary; Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans, 1991), 285.

The work of Greek exegetes

Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.

The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.

Messianic work.

28. τί ποιῶμεν …; What must we do (v. 5) that we may work? Perhaps they understood Him to mean that they must earn what they desire; certainly they see that Christ’s words have a moral meaning; they must do the works required by God. But how?

29. τὸ ἔργον. They probably thought of works of the law, tithes, sacrifices, &c. He tells them of one work, one moral act, from which all the rest derive their value, continuous belief (πιστεύητε, not πιστεύσητε) in Him whom God has sent. Comp. Acts 16:31. On ἵνα and ἀπέστειλεν see on 1:8, 33, 4:47, 17:3.1

1 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 155.

rather than deal with

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe is the answer to what must i do

Not the nothing "God will cause you to believe if you are among the elect" of your theology

You simply asserted your view

You persist in ignoring the Christ of his Christians as shown in the following.

Your heart's treasure is that when Jesus Christ says God, He does not mean God, but, rather, He means man in at least one specific instance as we shall see below.

You preach your Edit by Admin who is an inferior orator; on the other hand, God causes me to proclaim Lord Jesus Who is the Master Orator with no equal.

You believe that your idiot Jesus is incapable of formulating a coherent sentence with the words that convey His intended meaning; on the other hand, I believe Jesus says what he means with precision, unambigatuity, and Truth (John 14:6).

You exalt your god Calvin above the One True God because you utilize your god Calvin's words "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" as your authority to suppress, eliminate, and adulterate the meaning of the Word of God:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (TomL 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)

Your adulterations to the word of God extend even farther:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
I chose Jesus, but Jesus didn't choose me (TomL 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose exclusively you apostles and nobody else out of the world (TomL 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

Your heart turns the Word of God inside out.

You have refused to present a public apology response for your application of the nauseous concept to the precious Holy Word of God!

Repeat ad nasaeum

Seems that is all Kermos has

The following Word of God is that which the both of you call nauseous! No Christian calls the Word of God nauseating.

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE REVEALER OF TRUTH, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[Red Baker]

We?

Who is the we on vacation?

Who do you think? My family~besides, what does it matter that would cause you to even ask, I made it very clear.

I'll be back tomorrow to answer a few posts.

 

[TomL]

Who do you think? My family~besides, what does it matter that would cause you to even ask, I made it very clear.

I'll be back tomorrow to answer a few posts.

Ok

Hold on to your attitude

 

[TomL]

continued from post #3,261





You persist in ignoring the Christ of his Christians as shown in the following.

Your heart's treasure is that when Jesus Christ says God, He does not mean God, but, rather, He means man in at least one specific instance as we shall see below.

You preach your idiot Jesus who is an inferior orator; on the other hand, God causes me to proclaim Lord Jesus Who is the Master Orator with no equal.

You believe that your idiot Jesus is incapable of formulating a coherent sentence with the words that convey His intended meaning; on the other hand, I believe Jesus says what he means with precision, unambigatuity, and Truth (John 14:6).

You exalt your god Calvin above the One True God because you utilize your god Calvin's words "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" as your authority to suppress, eliminate, and adulterate the meaning of the Word of God:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (TomL 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)

Your adulterations to the word of God extend even farther:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
I chose Jesus, but Jesus didn't choose me (TomL 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose exclusively you apostles and nobody else out of the world (TomL 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

Your heart turns the Word of God inside out.

You have refused to present a public apology response for your application of the nauseous concept to the precious Holy Word of God!



The following Word of God is that which the both of you call nauseous! No Christian calls the Word of God nauseating.

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE REVEALER OF TRUTH, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

Where do you deal with the fact you make Christ a liar

John 6:27 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Jesus told his hearers they had something to do

You say there is nothing to do.

I would say Jesus tells the truth.

You not so much

Let me know when you are ready to take the word of Christ seriously and throw away your gnostic inspired doctrines

d



y

 

[civic]

Where do you deal with the fact you make Christ a liar

John 6:27 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Jesus told his hearers they had something to do

You say there is nothing to do.

I would say Jesus tells the truth.

You not so much

Let me know when you are ready to take the word of Christ seriously and throw away your gnostic inspired doctrines

d



y

Here is why- like father like son.

John 8:39-45

 

[TomL]

As God has caused me to write previously, we Christians bear fruit of the Spirit because our good works that we do are governed by God for this says the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); therefore, your "you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do" is you bearing false witness against me again.



You propounded "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

Furthermore, you answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).​

​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

continued to post #3,262

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY REDEEMER, LORD JESUS!!!

Sorry you have no evidence that Matthias was in the room

He was not here

John 6:70–71 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 18:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Matthew 20:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

Matthew 26:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mark 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mark 6:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 9:35 (KJV 1900) — 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

Mark 11:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


You have absolutely no proof of Matthias being present on that occasion

which may be why the following reject your claim



John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”



Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

 

[TomL]

You heart's addition of a non-existent word into the Apostle Peter's writing evidences your error, and the Greek language shown in the attached proves your deception as explained. Your lack of Greek knowledge of how common language constructs such as relative pronouns and objects are used leads you astray as the attached image shows.

The relative pronoun οἵτινες (
Strong's 3748. ὅστις, (hostis, hétis, ho ti) -- whoever, anyone who) appears in the 2 Peter 2:1 passage, but this "who" is associated with a different earlier clause, and this "who" (οἵτινες) fails to appear in the "even denying the Lord bought them" clause, so you are in error.

The Greek source in the attached image is absent of a Greek source word for the word "who" (NASB) or "that" (KJV) in the Apostle Peter's writing recorded in 2 Peter 2:1.

Therefore, each and every translation above causes a collision and contradiction between Peter and Jesus, a contradiction that does not exist in Peter's heart!

Let's continue to dwell on 2 Peter 2:1 for a moment. This is the verse that you have repeated and repeated as your free-willian philosophy's support that Christ's atonement applying to false prophets with your heart's treasure "Even false prophets had been bought by Christ" as your closing paragraph above.

In your quote above, I suspect you include both false prophets and false teachers, but, either way, the results remain the same for you Free-Willian Philosophers.

The Apostle Peter wrote

​

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

(2 Peter 2:1)​

​

Behold, the corrected English translation here has a single word change from the KJV 1900, and the alteration was the removal of the unsupported word "that".

We do not find a Greek source word for the word "that" in the Greek manuscripts for 2 Peter 2:1, so the KJV 1900 translators illegally added the English word "that" into 2 Peter 2:1, and their addition results in a contradiction with this blessed Word of God:

​

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand.​

(John 10:27-28)​

​

With the word "that" in 2 Peter 2:1 deception destroyed, the Truth (John 14:6) stands out with "even denying the Lord bought them"; therefore, the false teachers themselves deny being bought by Christ, so false teachers are excluded from Christ's atonement per the Apostle Peter according to 2 Peter 2:1-3.

False prophets and false teachers deny God's loving atonement through their beliefs such as believing in Christ precedes being born of God, yet such false prophets cannot righteously perceive Christ because King Jesus of the Kingdom of God proclaims "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3), so you false teachers are in your own self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation instead of being fed the Holy Spirit's revelation (2 Peter 1:20-21).

You preach a failure Christ whose atonement on the cross purchases false prophets unto "swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1-3)! God has me here proclaiming to you that Christ did not atone for "false prophets" (2 Peter 2:1-3), yet Christ saves exactly who He chooses to save from the wrath of God.

You accused me of conflating Christ's atonement with free-will, and then you denied doing such, and the you fail to apologize when you are shown that you did accuse me, and here is the proof.



There is an occurrence of you accusing me of conflating free-will choice and being born of God as purchased by Christ's atonement on the cross.



Again, here is another occurrence of you accusing me of conflating free-will choosing of Christ and life in Christ as purchased by Christ's atonement on the cross.

My recollection is accurate that you accused me of conflating atonement with free-will, and you proceed to do the very thimg that you held against me; moreover, you are using your free-willian "I chose Jesus" as the driving factor for the atonement which emphasizes the free-willian philosophy of man causing himself to be born of God, just as God caused me to explain to you in post #799. A hypocrite says do as I say but not as I do, and Lord Jesus has a terrifying declaration about hypocrites "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" (Matthew 23:13).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that faith/belief inside of us Christians is caused by Lord and God Jesus Christ, for the Christ of us Christians says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

And Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10).

And Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God.

But you fail to believe Lord Jesus Christ because you illegally convert the Christ's God glorifying phrase "the work of God" into your heart's free-willian glorifying phrase "the work of man" as shown here:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (TomL 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)

Now, let's look at that which you attempted to obfuscate instead of addressing about your belief that Judas Iscariot is a part of "all men" in Titus 2:11 and the corresponding "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2.

"I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24), and God causes some who are Gentiles to be grafted into Israel (Romans 11:11-36). These are the whole world in 1 John 2:2 - not Judas Iscariot as you believe because your belief results in a failure atonement for Christ as detailed below.

Judas Iscariot is included in "the whole world" (1 John 2:2) according to your Free-willian Philosophy, yet, in Truth (John 14:6), Judas is not a part of "the whole world" in John the Apostle's word, here, and John exclusively includes people who are Christians at departure from this Earth, here. Your word is wrong side while the Apostle's word is right side:

Wrong Side		Right Side
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world including Judas Iscariot the son of destruction, so Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for Judas Iscariot. (1 TomL 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that God causes to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

TomL, you include yourself in "the whole world" (1 John 5:19) according to your Free-willian Philosophy, yet, in Truth (John 14:6), no Christian is a part of "the whole world" in John the Apostle's word, here. Your word is on the left side while the Apostolic testimony is on the right side:

The traditions of men		Apostolic Testimony
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world, including TomL, lies in the evil one. (1 TomL 5:18-19)		We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the evil one. (1 John 5:18-19)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 includes exclusively the people that the evil one touches (1 John 5:19), yet Christ guards Christians keeping us untouched by the evil one (1 John 5:18), but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Jesus Christ excepts Judas Iscariot from inclusion in the New Covenant of Christ's Blood in Luke 22:21, so you remain in anti-truth by claiming Judas is included in Christ's atonement.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YHWH BE MAGNIFIED!!!

Sorry all the translations dispute you


Bought is the translation of a Greek participle referring to the one who bought them

New International Version
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

New Living Translation
But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.

English Standard Version
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Berean Standard Bible
Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Berean Literal Bible
But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

King James Bible
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

New King James Version
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

New American Standard Bible
But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

NASB 1995
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

NASB 1977
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Legacy Standard Bible
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Amplified Bible
But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Christian Standard Bible
There were indeed false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

American Standard Version
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But there were also lying Prophets among the people, as there shall be lying teachers also among you, those who bring destructive heresies and deny the Lord who bought them, while bringing upon themselves speedy destruction.

Contemporary English Version
Sometimes false prophets spoke to the people of Israel. False teachers will also sneak in and speak harmful lies to you. But these teachers don't really belong to the Master who paid a great price for them, and they will quickly destroy themselves.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

English Revised Version
But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
False prophets were among God's people [in the past], as false teachers will be among you. They will secretly bring in their own destructive teachings. They will deny the Lord, who has bought them, and they will bring themselves swift destruction.

Good News Translation
False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.

International Standard Version
Now there were false prophets among the people, just as there also will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Literal Standard Version
But there also came false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you, who will stealthily bring in destructive sects, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing quick destruction to themselves,

Majority Standard Bible
Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

New American Bible
There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

NET Bible
But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them. As a result, they will bring swift destruction on themselves.

New Revised Standard Version
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

New Heart English Bible
But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

Webster's Bible Translation
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will privately bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Weymouth New Testament
But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be teachers of falsehood among you also, who will cunningly introduce fatal divisions, disowning even the Sovereign Lord who has redeemed them, and bringing on themselves swift destruction.

World English Bible
But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

Young's Literal Translation
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

you have no idea what you are talking about

 

[TomL]

Here is why- like father like son.

John 8:39-45

Indeed

He refuses the word of Christ5

 

[Red Baker]

Ok

Hold on to your attitude

My apology.

 

[Kermos]

Sorry that simply means you have not addressed them and are in denial

You still do nothing at all to address all the verses which state Christ was given for all

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Or the fact of God's love and his giving of Christ for the world

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not

which all you can do is ignore

Just as you ignored the Fact Jesus gave his body and blood for judas

Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it

Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well

Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ

John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

John 4:42 (KJV) — 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 (KJV) — 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 (KJV) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


you still provide nothing which shows world equals elect only




1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:5
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

and cannot show a meaning of believers alone anywhere in 1John

The verse does not support you as already shown

1 John 2:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No honnest interpreter would imagine the term means the elect alone as your theology requires

FAILURE ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You fail to address the Holy Scripture proclaimed to you, and the verses you presented do nothing to correct your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) belief in a failure Christ.

Behold, Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your own interpretation - all your prophecy amounts to TomL 2:11 (your adulteration of Titus 2:11), TomL 3:2-21 (your adulteration of John 3:2-21), 1 TomL 2:2 (your adulteration of 1 John 2:2), and TomL 1:29 (your adulteration of John 1:29), and your writing of "there are no such scriptures" (proof post #3,173) proves that your prophecy is false. You void your own thoughts!

In Truth (John 14:6), you mention 1 John 2:2, and God had me mention 1 John 2:2 with specific identification of your adulteration to 1 John 2:2. I could go on about other verses like this, but this is enough to establish matters.

It is written "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1), so your spirit can be tested according to your prophecy, so let's move forward with examining your writings that are your prophecy.

Christ died for all

Judas and Nancy as well

Before Christ made atonement on the cross bringing salvation to "all men", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "all men" as recorded in Titus 2:11.

Your preach that Judas Iscariot is included in "all men", so your prophecy adulterates the Holy Scripture into the traditions of men:

The traditions of men		Holy Scripture
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men including Judas Iscariot of the world who is eternally under the wrath of God (TomL 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

But Jesus failed to bring Judas salvation per Free-willian Philosophers, so your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture go again and again.

Before Christ made atonement for the sin of "the world", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "the world" as recorded in John 3:16.

You quoted John 3:14-18 out of it's greater context of John 3:2-21, so God has me not only restore the greater context but show your adulterations underlined for ease of reading.

Your heart puts Judas Iscariot into "the world" and your heart puts believing (John 3:9-21) before being born of God (John 3:2-8), so your adulteration is reflected in the word of TomL:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
2(9) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 3(10) Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 4(11) Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 5(12) If I told you earthly things and you do not cause yourself to believe, how will you cause yourself to believe if I tell you heavenly things? 6(13) No one has ascended into heaven except men who judge right in their own initiative to believe in Me and He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 7(14) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness for the world including people outside of Israel, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 8(15) so that whoever is unborn of God choosing to believe will have [/u]born his dead self into[/u] eternal life. 9(16) For God so loved the world including Judas Iscariot, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever, loving darkness instead of the Light, wroughts to believe by himself in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 10(17) For God did not send the Son into the world including Judas Iscariot to judge the world including Judas Iscariot, but to save the world including Judas Iscariot who I fail to save from the wrath of God through Him. 11(18) He who forced God to cause himself to be born again because of his self-willed believing in Him is not judged; he who does not choose to believe has been judged already, because he has not chosen to believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 12(19) This is the judgment, that the Light has come into Judas Iscariot and the world and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 13(20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 14(21) But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” 15(2) this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 16(3) Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is not born again he can see the kingdom of God.” 17(4) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 18(5) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is born of water and the Spirit he can enter into the kingdom of God. 19(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh and this evil flesh profits the flesh and this evil flesh pleases God, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit of no significance. 20(7) Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 21(8) The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do know exactly where it comes from and exactly where it is going because your choosing of Me controls your becoming born of the Spirit; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (TomL 3:2-21 (no longer the Word of God))		2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:2-21)

since it is written "You hate all who do iniquity" (Psalm 5:5), then God hates Judas Iscariot the doer of the iniquity of betraying Jesus Christ; therefore, Judas Iscariot is not included in "the world" as recorded in John 3:16. Your heart makes God's love for the world including Judas Iscariot miserably weak, ineffectual, and of no consequence.

So, your spirit prophecies a very different message than the marvelous Holy Spirit inspired Word of God sayings. For important detail, please see post #2,121.

For similar reasons, Judas is not a part of "the whole world" in John the Apostle's word. Your word is wrong side while the Apostle's word is right side:

Wrong Side		Right Side
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world including Judas Iscariot the son of destruction, so Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for Judas Iscariot. (1 TomL 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

For similar reasons, Judas Iscariot is not part of "the world" in John the Baptist's saying. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world including Judas Iscariot! (TomL 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Since you believe Judas Iscariot is included in Christ's atonement, then you believe that Christ's atonement leads to destruction because Judas Iscariot is "the son of destruction".

Judas Iscariot is not included in Christ's atonement because Judas was "the son of destruction" before the crucifixion.

You preach a failure atonement for Christ.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO CAUSES EVERYONE OF HIS OWN TO PERCEIVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

 

[TomL]

FAILURE ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You fail to address the Holy Scripture proclaimed to you, and the verses you presented do nothing to correct your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) belief in a failure Christ.

Behold, Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your own interpretation - all your prophecy amounts to TomL 2:11 (your adulteration of Titus 2:11), TomL 3:2-21 (your adulteration of John 3:2-21), 1 TomL 2:2 (your adulteration of 1 John 2:2), and TomL 1:29 (your adulteration of John 1:29), and your writing of "there are no such scriptures" (proof post #3,173) proves that your prophecy is false. You void your own thoughts!

In Truth (John 14:6), you mention 1 John 2:2, and God had me mention 1 John 2:2 with specific identification of your adulteration to 1 John 2:2. I could go on about other verses like this, but this is enough to establish matters.

It is written "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1), so your spirit can be tested according to your prophecy, so let's move forward with examining your writings that are your prophecy.



Before Christ made atonement on the cross bringing salvation to "all men", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "all men" as recorded in Titus 2:11.

Your preach that Judas Iscariot is included in "all men", so your prophecy adulterates the Holy Scripture into the traditions of men:

The traditions of men		Holy Scripture
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men including Judas Iscariot of the world who is eternally under the wrath of God (TomL 2:11)		For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

But Jesus failed to bring Judas salvation per Free-willian Philosophers, so your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture go again and again.

Before Christ made atonement for the sin of "the world", Lord Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as "the son of destruction" who is an exception from Christ's atonement with "I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, Judas Iscariot is not a part of "the world" as recorded in John 3:16.

You quoted John 3:14-18 out of it's greater context of John 3:2-21, so God has me not only restore the greater context but show your adulterations underlined for ease of reading.

Your heart puts Judas Iscariot into "the world" and your heart puts believing (John 3:9-21) before being born of God (John 3:2-8), so your adulteration is reflected in the word of TomL:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
2(9) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 3(10) Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 4(11) Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 5(12) If I told you earthly things and you do not cause yourself to believe, how will you cause yourself to believe if I tell you heavenly things? 6(13) No one has ascended into heaven except men who judge right in their own initiative to believe in Me and He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 7(14) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness for the world including people outside of Israel, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 8(15) so that whoever is unborn of God choosing to believe will have [/u]born his dead self into[/u] eternal life. 9(16) For God so loved the world including Judas Iscariot, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever, loving darkness instead of the Light, wroughts to believe by himself in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 10(17) For God did not send the Son into the world including Judas Iscariot to judge the world including Judas Iscariot, but to save the world including Judas Iscariot who I fail to save from the wrath of God through Him. 11(18) He who forced God to cause himself to be born again because of his self-willed believing in Him is not judged; he who does not choose to believe has been judged already, because he has not chosen to believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 12(19) This is the judgment, that the Light has come into Judas Iscariot and the world and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 13(20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 14(21) But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” 15(2) this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 16(3) Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is not born again he can see the kingdom of God.” 17(4) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 18(5) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one who is born of water and the Spirit he can enter into the kingdom of God. 19(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh and this evil flesh profits the flesh and this evil flesh pleases God, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit of no significance. 20(7) Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 21(8) The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do know exactly where it comes from and exactly where it is going because your choosing of Me controls your becoming born of the Spirit; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (TomL 3:2-21 (no longer the Word of God))		2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his works will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” (John 3:2-21)

since it is written "You hate all who do iniquity" (Psalm 5:5), then God hates Judas Iscariot the doer of the iniquity of betraying Jesus Christ; therefore, Judas Iscariot is not included in "the world" as recorded in John 3:16. Your heart makes God's love for the world including Judas Iscariot miserably weak, ineffectual, and of no consequence.

So, your spirit prophecies a very different message than the marvelous Holy Spirit inspired Word of God sayings. For important detail, please see post #2,121.

For similar reasons, Judas is not a part of "the whole world" in John the Apostle's word. Your word is wrong side while the Apostle's word is right side:

Wrong Side		Right Side
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world including Judas Iscariot the son of destruction, so Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for Judas Iscariot. (1 TomL 2:2)		He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.

For similar reasons, Judas Iscariot is not part of "the world" in John the Baptist's saying. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The Book of Free-willians		The Book of John
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world including Judas Iscariot! (TomL 1:29)		The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.

Since you believe Judas Iscariot is included in Christ's atonement, then you believe that Christ's atonement leads to destruction because Judas Iscariot is "the son of destruction".

Judas Iscariot is not included in Christ's atonement because Judas was "the son of destruction" before the crucifixion.

You preach a failure atonement for Christ.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO CAUSES EVERYONE OF HIS OWN TO PERCEIVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!

Let me know when you are actually willing to address these

Sorry that simply means you have not addressed them and are in denial

You still do nothing at all to address all the verses which state Christ was given for all

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Or the fact of God's love and his giving of Christ for the world

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not

which all you can do is ignore

Just as you ignored the Fact Jesus gave his body and blood for judas

Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it

Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well

Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ

John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

John 4:42 (KJV) — 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 (KJV) — 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 (KJV) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


you still provide nothing which shows world equals elect only




1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:5
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:14, Dan4:35
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

and cannot show a meaning of believers alone anywhere in 1John

The verse does not support you as already shown

1 John 2:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No honest interpreter would imagine the term means the elect alone, as your theology requires

BTW nothing in Gen 1:1, Dan 4:35 support your gnostic Manichean inspired doctrine

 

[civic]

Let me know when you are actually willing to address these

Sorry that simply means you have not addressed them and are in denial

You still do nothing at all to address all the verses which state Christ was given for all

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Or the fact of God's love and his giving of Christ for the world

John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not

which all you can do is ignore

Just as you ignored the Fact Jesus gave his body and blood for judas

Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.


Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it

Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well

Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ

John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

John 4:42 (KJV) — 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 (KJV) — 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 (KJV) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


you still provide nothing which shows world equals elect only




1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:13
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:5
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1 John 4:14, Dan4:35
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

and cannot show a meaning of believers alone anywhere in 1John

The verse does not support you as already shown

1 John 2:2 (NASB 2020) — 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

No honest interpreter would imagine the term means the elect alone, as your theology requires

BTW nothing in Gen 1:1, Dan 4:35 support your gnostic Manichean inspired doctrine

Yes he has a perverted gospel and no concept as to the atonement according to scripture.

 

[TomL]

Yes he has a perverted gospel and no concept as to the atonement according to scripture.

and just repeats himself over and over without addressing rebuttal

 

[TomL]

My apology.

Ok accepted

 

[Kermos]

When are you going to face it?

You claimed man has no power to choose to serve God

this passage refuted you

Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 2020) — 15 But if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served, which were beyond the Euphrates River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would abandon the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves, and did these great signs in our sight and watched over us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your wrongdoing or your sins. 20 If you abandon the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and destroy you after He has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now then, do away with the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the Book of the Law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Then Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us, because it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; so it shall be a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 Now it came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being 110 years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance, in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known every deed of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

so when will you stop denying scripture and believe

God caused me to write:

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!
​

In your "you claimed they had no power to choose to serve God" you malignantly deleted the glorious description of "God imparted".

You fabricate a different writing than the writing that God caused me to compose. Then you argue against your fabrication. Your are being disengeious.

You adulterate Holy Scripture in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God recorded in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, so your own interpretation's intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL's Terms To Get In Heaven		Holy Scripture
"Israel," declares YHWH God, "put away the foreign gods, and Israel chose to served YHWH all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and the people have come into My Presence in Heaven who died after Joshua died but before the elders died, and had known all the deeds of YHWH which He had done for Israel, and I will abuse my Son, the Messiah, by sending Him to suffer needlessly because these people chose YHWH God to be in my presence forevermore". (TomL 24:31)		Israel served YHWH all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of YHWH which He had done for Israel. (Joshua 24:15)

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your heart deletes God's glorious self-description in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, and then you conveyed that the people were imparted by YHWH God with the "power to choose to serve God", so your actions are evidence of your opposition to the Word of God who declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)!

Your heart's thoughts exhibit the free-willian pattern of deleting God's glorious self-description while at the same time exalting man above the Most High with your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-description of your purported ability to control God with your "I chose God", and the above two paragraphs illuminate two separate instances; additionally, the evidence is throughout this thread.

Refer to post #3,237 for the integral continuation of this post, and this post #3,237 shows the people did not put away the foreign gods until multiple generations later thus not serving God with their whole heart during the time of Joshua and the elders.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YOUR TESTIMONIES ARE FULLY CONFIRMED; HOLINESS BEFITS YOUR HOUSE, O YHWH, FOREVERMORE!!!

 

[TomL]

God caused me to write:

​

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!​

​

In your "you claimed they had no power to choose to serve God" you malignantly deleted the glorious description of "God imparted".

You fabricate a different writing than the writing that God caused me to compose. Then you argue against your fabrication. Your are being disengeious.

You adulterate Holy Scripture in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God recorded in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, so your own interpretation's intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL's Terms To Get In Heaven		Holy Scripture
"Israel," declares YHWH God, "put away the foreign gods, and Israel chose to served YHWH all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and the people have come into My Presence in Heaven who died after Joshua died but before the elders died, and had known all the deeds of YHWH which He had done for Israel, and I will abuse my Son, the Messiah, by sending Him to suffer needlessly because these people chose YHWH God to be in my presence forevermore". (TomL 24:31)		Israel served YHWH all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of YHWH which He had done for Israel. (Joshua 24:15)

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture again and again and again.

Your heart deletes God's glorious self-description in John 15:16, John 15:19, John 6:29, John 3:21, John 3:3, Matthew 11:25, and John 13:34, and then you conveyed that the people were imparted by YHWH God with the "power to choose to serve God", so your actions are evidence of your opposition to the Word of God who declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)!

Your heart's thoughts exhibit the free-willian pattern of deleting God's glorious self-description while at the same time exalting man above the Most High with your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) self-description of your purported ability to control God with your "I chose God", and the above two paragraphs illuminate two separate instances; additionally, the evidence is throughout this thread.

Refer to post #3,237 for the integral continuation of this post, and this post #3,237 shows the people did not put away the foreign gods until multiple generations later thus not serving God with their whole heart during the time of Joshua and the elders.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! YOUR TESTIMONIES ARE FULLY CONFIRMED; HOLINESS BEFITS YOUR HOUSE, O YHWH, FOREVERMORE!!!

You just ignored the scripture

When are you going to face it?

You claimed man has no power to choose to serve God

this passage refuted you

Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 2020) — 15 But if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served, which were beyond the Euphrates River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would abandon the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves, and did these great signs in our sight and watched over us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your wrongdoing or your sins. 20 If you abandon the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and destroy you after He has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now then, do away with the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the Book of the Law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Then Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be a witness against us, because it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; so it shall be a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 Now it came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being 110 years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance, in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known every deed of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

so when will you stop denying scripture and believe

 

[Kermos]

Where do you deal with the fact you make Christ a liar

John 6:27 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Jesus told his hearers they had something to do

You say there is nothing to do.

I would say Jesus tells the truth.

You not so much

Let me know when you are ready to take the word of Christ seriously and throw away your gnostic inspired doctrines

d



y

You are blind because you broke the labeled link between continuous precursor post (see the "continued from post #3,261" in the "Kermos said" quotation inside your post), and God causes me to build upon the labeled integrated posts right now!

Since Lord Jesus says "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) as a requirement, then no one can work "for the food that endures to eternal life" unless such a one receives from God Himself "the food that endures to eternal life" (John 6:27), so this precious food is given by God to God's chosen persons.

Your writing of "Jesus told his hearers they had something to do You say there is nothing to do." regarding John 6:27 results in "the fact you make Christ a liar" when the Christ of us Christians says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) as well as this lovingly wonderful Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) as quoted to you in post #3,261, so the Word of God shows your deception about you driving God according to your choosing - even before you were born of the flesh.

That is not the only time your heart positions Christ as a liar, but you label Christ a deceiver as presented below based on your free-willian philosophy writings revealing your heart's gnostic (knowledge) human centered purported ability to perceive God before your eyes have been opened by God as per God in "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Your heart's treasure is that when Jesus Christ says God, He does not mean God, but, rather, He means man in at least one specific instance as we shall see below.

You preach your idiot Jesus who is an inferior orator; on the other hand, God causes me to proclaim Lord Jesus Who is the Master Orator with no equal.

You believe that your idiot Jesus is incapable of formulating a coherent sentence with the words that convey His intended meaning; on the other hand, I believe Jesus says what he means with precision, unambigatuity, and Truth (John 14:6).

You exalt your god Calvin above the One True God because you utilize your god Calvin's words "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" as your authority to suppress, eliminate, and adulterate the meaning of the Word of God:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (TomL 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)

Your adulterations to the word of God extend even farther:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
I chose Jesus, but Jesus didn't choose me (TomL 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose exclusively you apostles and nobody else out of the world (TomL 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

Your heart turns the Word of God inside out.

You have refused to present a public apology response for your application of the nauseous concept to the precious Holy Word of God!

Repeat ad nasaeum

Seems that is all Kermos has

The following Word of God is that which the both of you call nauseous! No Christian calls the Word of God nauseating.

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE REVEALER OF TRUTH, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[civic]

You are blind because you broke the labeled link between continuous precursor post (see the "continued from post #3,261" in the "Kermos said" quotation inside your post), and God causes me to build upon the labeled integrated posts right now!

Since Lord Jesus says "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) as a requirement, then no one can work "for the food that endures to eternal life" unless such a one receives from God Himself "the food that endures to eternal life" (John 6:27), so this precious food is given by God to God's chosen persons.

Your writing of "Jesus told his hearers they had something to do You say there is nothing to do." regarding John 6:27 results in "the fact you make Christ a liar" when the Christ of us Christians says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) as well as this lovingly wonderful Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) as quoted to you in post #3,261, so the Word of God shows your deception about you driving God according to your choosing - even before you were born of the flesh.

That is not the only time your heart positions Christ as a liar, but you label Christ a deceiver as presented below based on your free-willian philosophy writings revealing your heart's gnostic (knowledge) human centered purported ability to perceive God before your eyes have been opened by God as per God in "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Your heart's treasure is that when Jesus Christ says God, He does not mean God, but, rather, He means man in at least one specific instance as we shall see below.

You preach your idiot Jesus who is an inferior orator; on the other hand, God causes me to proclaim Lord Jesus Who is the Master Orator with no equal.

You believe that your idiot Jesus is incapable of formulating a coherent sentence with the words that convey His intended meaning; on the other hand, I believe Jesus says what he means with precision, unambigatuity, and Truth (John 14:6).

You exalt your god Calvin above the One True God because you utilize your god Calvin's words "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" as your authority to suppress, eliminate, and adulterate the meaning of the Word of God:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
This is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (TomL 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)

Your adulterations to the word of God extend even farther:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
I chose Jesus, but Jesus didn't choose me (TomL 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose exclusively you apostles and nobody else out of the world (TomL 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)

Your heart turns the Word of God inside out.

You have refused to present a public apology response for your application of the nauseous concept to the precious Holy Word of God!



The following Word of God is that which the both of you call nauseous! No Christian calls the Word of God nauseating.

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE REVEALER OF TRUTH, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

John 8:39-45

 

[Kermos]

Sorry you have no evidence that Matthias was in the room

He was not here

John 6:70–71 (KJV 1900) — 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Luke 18:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Matthew 20:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,

Matthew 26:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Mark 4:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mark 6:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mark 9:35 (KJV 1900) — 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

Mark 11:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.


You have absolutely no proof of Matthias being present on that occasion

which may be why the following reject your claim



John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”



Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.



Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

You call the apostles all liars because Peter said Matthias was at the supper recorded in John chapter 15 as per the below. Your time reference skills are impaired because the conversation's explicit context of "you twelve" recorded in John 6:70-71 is not used by Jesus as the conversation's recorded in John 15:16-19, in fact, Jesus constrains not the context with "you twelve" anywhere recorded in John chapters 14-17; furthermore, your cognitive skills are impaired because Matthias was present per Peter when Jesus spoke the words recorded in John 6:70-71, but the Christ's reference was to "you twelve" in that particular instance - specifically telling everyone that one apostle would betray Him - and there is the context for John 6:70-71. Your heart obliterates Lord Jesus Christ's context.

You deceptively omit that the post to which you replied explains that Christ is the cause of we Christians good works. We Christians joyfully do the works caused by Christ. Let's look at it.

Let me know when you are going to stop calling Jesus a liar and avoiding arguments

sorry you ignored scripture, context, Greek scholarship and commentary

All repeat stuff which ignores rebuttal and is simply repeated over and over

But worse of all you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do

As God has caused me to write previously, we Christians bear fruit of the Spirit because our good works that we do are governed by God for this says the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21); therefore, your "you made Jesus a liar for he told thm they must do something while you state they have nothing to do" is you bearing false witness against me again.

John 15:16

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.

Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.

1. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.

In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.

Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley.

You propounded "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

Furthermore, you answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

continued to post #3,262

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE MY REDEEMER, LORD JESUS!!!