brightfame52
Well-known member
No its not, has nothing to do with being forced.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Sorry but you err
Truly, you err, and here is the proof. You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
The word Force that's your input
It' you doing
Give it up
Not one word of unconditionality appears in the passage
or anywhere in scripture regarding salvation
I didn't bring up "unconditionality", but you keep on bringing up "unconditionality".
You cannot choose Jesus, and the following shows the Truth (John 14:6).
You propounded "As for your verses First you simply repeat Christ choice of his disciples but nothing states Christ chose them unconditionally for salvation" respecting John 15:16-19, and again I perceive that you switched to use "disciples" as an in-situ replacement for "apostles", yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.
Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:
Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!
Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
Brother, it is not in the passage that I perceive God uses force to make one willing-coercion. It is in the words that you use.
What you quoted is a prophecy stating how things will be when the Lord is exalted to the right hand of God.. It is not about God using power to make someone believe. The prophecy simply means His people-believers will offer themselves willingly in service to Him in the day of His power. And as I explained, the day of His power began to be fulfilled upon the exaltation of our Lord and continues to this day of those who believe in Him.
The term that you use to explain your viewpoint is, "caused by the power of God". This means forced or coerced. If I forced you to punch yourself; this would mean I caused you to punch yourself by my power. Likewise, when you say God causes us to be willing by His power; this means we are being forced to do what God wants. Not much of a relationship if you have to force people to love you is it?
What we do understand from the bible is that God invites sinful people to eternal life with Him. This means He makes the way for their sins to be atoned and takes the initiative to give us the invite. One cannot say they came to God on their own, but one can rightfully say they came to God because He came to them first.
Think of repentance. It is an act of our will to choose to renounce sin and come to God in faith of Jesus Christ. God does not make-force us to repent, but God does give us the reasons to repent. The decision to leave a life of sin and come to God in faith of Christ is ours to decide. One cannot say they repented on their own initiative, but one can say I repented because God commands it in His invite-gospel to live forever with Him in bliss.
He loved me first; by reason of this, I was drawn to love Him.
God Bless
Last edited:
Unconditionality is required in your doctrine. If you do not have it, you have nothing
You assume what you believe is true regarding his selection of disciples while on earth is true of all time. But even that is not enough to prove your doctrine.
In all of the bible, there is not one statement saying God saves men unconditionally
So you have nothing.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Force is your unjust input, Gods causing makes one willing in the day of His Power
brightfame52
Well-known member
Force isnt in the equation, man unjustly puts it there, Gods making or causing one to do something, they will do it willingly. Jesus going to the cross to die for the sins of the elect was predetermined by God yet He did it willingly Lk 22:22
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
And there is many other instances in scripture where things, people have been predetermined a course of action by Gods counsel and yet they did it willingly without being forced as people say. People bring that word in because of their hatred of predestination.
Using power to bring about a result is using force
You wrote "He loved me first; by reason of this, I love Him" as your concluding paragraph before your post's closing by which you use ascribe free-will ability to choose to love Jesus for yourself, yet the Apostle John wrote love by God’s working “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).
John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”).
I love God and my brothers and sisters with the love that God puts in me by God's grace for God's glory! One who loves God does not steal God's glory!
Earlier in your post, you wrote that you "understand from the bible is that God invites sinful people to eternal life with Him", but God does not "invite" of which term you use ascribe free-will ability to choose Jesus unto being saved from the wrath of God for yourself. The King of Glory summons man by royal decree (Matthew 22:1-14). Many Americans fail to understand regal matters because of self-rule.
King Jesus wrings man to be he who practices the Truth as well as God wrings man to be he who comes to the Light; in Truth (John 14:6), the Word of God declares “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).
Instead of your "understand from the bible is that God invites sinful people to eternal life with Him", we find that God alone causes man to come to eternal Life (John 14:6).
So, It is in the words that you use which ascribes free-will to yourself that demonstrates your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10). Biblically, there is no such thing as free-will.
2 Corinthians 5:20 (NASB 2020) — 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Isaiah 55:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, Even the sure mercies of David.
Isaiah 45:22 (ESV) — 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Isaiah 55:1 (ESV) — 1 “Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Revelation 22:17 (ESV) — 17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
I'd say that Christ's doctrine is that man's salvation is entirely conditional upon God's choosing (John 15:16-19); therefore, there is a severe problem with your "Unconditionality is required in your doctrine".
Well, since Christ establishes who are His friends in John 15:15-16, then the applicability of John 15:16-19 to all Christians in all time is clearly evident. Even you claim to be Christ's friend.
You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.
Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).
JOHN’S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME
The Apostle John wrote “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31).
Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.
John’s writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.
TomL, @brightfame52 brought another wonderful passage for Acts 16:30-31! Paul wrote "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29)!
I have the Truth (John 14:6), so you call the Truth "nothing".
Your heart makes false statements about God. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
Afraid not
You assume the choice of Christ disciples corresponds to your belief in unconditional election to salvation though it is never stated
God's choice is to save those that believe
1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
and Phillipians 1:29 does not help you
to grant does not mean to infuse or effectually cause
Philippians 1:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf,
it does mean to permit, allow, or enable
The phillipians were granted faith in this manner
Acts 16:9–12 (ESV) — 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 And when Paul had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them. 11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days.
God gave Paul a vision which took him to phillippi to preach the gospel
Faith in the gospel is sufficient for life and salvation
The Apostle John wrote “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:31).
Theophilus
Active member
Everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ. To become a genuine believer in Jesus Christ, we need the following:
• An understanding of the gospel. In order to believe and receive the good news of Jesus Christ, we must have an understanding of our hopeless, sinful condition. It’s also necessary to recognize Jesus’ death on the cross as the sufficient sacrifice required to remove all sins.
• A definite turning point. When we understand the gospel, we will turn from sin in repentance and toward God in faith and obedience.
• A changed life. Changing direction from our old fleshly lifestyle makes way for new life in Christ. Believers have a changed heart, and the sins we once loved, we now hate.
By grace, God’s salvation is offered to all who will believe and receive it through faith.
Hello brother,
May we begin by losing the stigma of free will. This term is laced with so many variations of interpretations that it is useless to use.
Biblically, man is given a will to determine and to act upon. Each man has used his will under deception, or willingly to satisfy the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. This began in the garden with two people who were sinless; one was deceived to use her will to sin and the other knowingly used his will to sin, and this scenario replicates itself to this day.
Man under sin has fallen under the indictment of Romans 3:10-18. And even though man has fallen under this indictment, God instructs man repeatedly to repent and obey Him. Even with Cain, God instructs him how to keep from sinning and have mastery over it, and yet Cain of his own volition followed the passions of the flesh and killed Cain from envy. But with other people we read where they obeyed God and were considered righteous. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sarah come to mind.
Why does God consider them righteous even though they had sinned? Because they believed God and lived their life according to that belief. Moses as an example. “By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.” (Heb 11:24-25)
Each example above determined to endure in their faith of God.
Moses refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing instead to be mistreated with his own people than to enjoy the pleasures of sin.
Man most definitely can and does decide to either listen to God and love Him; which means to heed what God says, or man can reject God's message for the love of the world; which is to live in fulfilling the lusts and passions of their flesh with others.
You want a passage to state man has a free will yet stumbling over the obvious throughout the bible that man can decide to obey God or not. In all love, the proverbial straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel applies.
Was Moses forced by God to refuse sin and choose being mistreated with God's people?
Under what power did Moses bow his will?
Moses was not forced to refuse sin and choose what is right. And under no power of anyone but his own volition did he decide to do so.
What about repentance? Does God force anyone to repent? Or does God command men to repent, to have a change of mind and turn away from living to the flesh and live by faith in Him?
What about this post about one must be willing?
One must be willing to accept the invite of God to be saved and joined with Him eternally.
One must be willing for God to save them.
One must be willing to accept Jesus Christ to be given the right to be a child of God.
Nowhere in the bible does it say or imply God makes one willing to repent and believe Him.
The onus of this is upon the hearer to accept by faith God’s invite to be forgiven and live with Him forever. One will either accept God’s invite or not.
One will either refuse sin and choose God like Moses or refuse God and continue in their sin.
As for the rest of your post, it will have to wait until we both come to the consensus of the bible that man does have liberty of will to refuse sin and choose to obey God or not.
God Bless
Last edited:
Wilber
Active member
So true and it's always a change for the better
