You failed in your task to defend your view
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-62107
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-62107
brightfame52
Well-known member
You cant see it And thats above my pay grade to cause you to see truth, and i dont take tasks from you !
1st - God does not force anyone to be willing to believe.
2nd - The prophecy concerns believers, for they are His people and offer themselves willingly in service to Him in the day of His power.
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your enemies! Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours. (Psa 110:1-3)
In context the prophecy is saying, Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments.
Thy people mean people who have believed in Jesus Christ. How else are they His people? We know no one is a child of God unless they first receive/accept/believe Jesus Christ and then He gives them the right to be a child of God.
And where does one get a holy garment? Isn't it true the only way for a person to live a life of holiness is "to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
The day of His power is when verses 1 & 2 were fulfilled; this was after His death and resurrection. It is also when Daniel 7:13-14 was fulfilled: “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." (Dan 7:13-14)
The person who believes in Jesus Christ freely offers themselves in service of our Lord, adorned "after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." We believers do not fear what others may think of our love and belief in Jesus Christ. We are not ashamed of Him. And serve Him in love and tell others of God's power to save them by believing in Jesus Christ. We are led by the Spirit of God, to live an uprightly Godly life in this evil age.
It does not mean God forces someone to believe.
God does not force anyone to believe, and your use of the passage does not imply that He does.
I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” (Rom 1:14-17)
In context the Apostle Paul is telling the Roman church that he is eager to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, even the worst of them, for the gospel is the power of salvation to everyone who believes. In no way is Paul saying the gospel forces people to believe; but that by believing it, God will save them by His power.
Instead of addressing the passages within my post, you decided to use two passages out of context to prove your belief that God forces people to believe. Link to post One must be willing
Proven
One must be willing to be saved.
One must be willing to accept the Gospel, the invite of God to be saved and joined with Him.
One must be willing to accept, to receive, to believe Jesus Christ.
Receiving/accepting is clearly the act of one's will. One must be willing to receive to one's self that John fulfilled prophecy as the coming of Elijah.
"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come." (Mat 11:13-14)
This statement clearly states God's will was to save the Jewish people but they were not willing.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together,
"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:11-13)
The order of salvation is given by John:
- to those who did receive/accept Him; to those who believe in His name
- He gave them the right to become the children of God. Who were born of the will of God.
God Bless
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A prophecy of Christ's enthronement
Matthew 26:64 (ESV) — 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 12:36 (ESV) — 36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’
Mark 14:62 (ESV) — 62 And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 16:19 (ESV) — 19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
Luke 20:42 (ESV) — 42 For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
Luke 22:69 (ESV) — 69 But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Acts 2:34 (ESV) — 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
Acts 2:35 (ESV) — 35 until I make your enemies your footstool.” ’
Romans 8:34 (ESV) — 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
1 Corinthians 15:24–28 (ESV) — 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Ephesians 1:20–22 (ESV) — 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Hebrews 1:3 (ESV) — 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:13 (ESV) — 13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
Hebrews 8:1 (ESV) — 1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
Hebrews 10:12–13 (ESV) — 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
brightfame52
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Nothing about being forced to be willing, Gods power makes them to be willing Ps 110:3
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
God causes His chosen to come to Him Ps 65:4
4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Not forced to approach to Him
Duh that's force for he determines it in your theology
PS what do you do with verse 2
Psalm 65:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 O thou that hearest prayer, Unto thee shall all flesh come.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Nothing about being forced to be willing, Gods power makes them to be willing Ps 110:3
Still sounds like force if made willing by power
brightfame52
Well-known member
Nothing about being forced to be willing, Gods power makes them to be willing Ps 110:3
God can turn hearts and put it into hearts to fufill His will, He is God, and they arent being forced, Believe in God friend Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
When God turns the persons heart, the person isnt being forced
Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
They weren't forced to fulfill His will !
I'm revisiting your post to address a fallacy that you presented.
Your example sentence for "make" in the active voice "I will make a house" deceptively switched the subject ("I") to act upon ("make") the direct object ("house"); in contrast, in John 1:12-13, the Apostle John has the subject ("as many" persons) getting joyfully (active voice) acted upon ("received") by the direct object ("God").
Furthermore, your same example sentence for "make" in the active voice "I will make a house" could just as easily be the passive voice as in when the subject ("I") person hires a contractor to act (make (build)) the direct object ("house"). The English language lacks the inflective grammatical construct to guarantee your thoughts in the sentence's current form.
The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον. Since BAGD has lambano as "receive", then BAGD is A-OK with "receive". There is more about BAGD near the end of this post. You conjure up false statements about the writings that God causes the Apostle John's to write as well as me to write.
Your folly that man causes himself to receive (lambano) Christ in John 1:12-13 is evident by the following.
Again, in yet a different post than before, God caused brightfame52 to interject something powerful.
In case you missed it as referenced by brightfame52, "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).
Self-willed you (2 Peter 2:9-10), not free-willed you, truly self-willed you are unrepentant after you were shown your linguistic deception that the Greek word παρέλαβον (Strong's 3880 - paralambanó - to receive from) occurs as the source word for "received" in John 1:12.
Since you brought up "receive" of John 1:11, the Apostle used the word "receive" to illustrate man's inability to choose to receive [Christ] into one’s house, so to speak; therefore, the very specific Greek word that you brought up proves the error of your free-willian way.
Your linguistics are so faulty that you said paralambano is part of John 1:12, and when it was shown to you that paralambano is actually in John 1:11, not John 1:12, then afterward you have shown no sign of repentance nor apology for your deception.
John's words are "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13), and the word "received" is accurately translated from ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambanó - to take, receive), and, indeed, "received" is Aorist and active grammatically.
The Apostle indicates we "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name" because we are the "children of God" (a.k.a. the "born of God") of whom are the ones that God causes us to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
The Apostle John specifically disallowed your free-will to "receive" Christ in the passage with John's words of "nor of the will of man" (John 1:12-13).
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:
The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant’s surprise attack.
The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.
A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.
Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:
1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)
There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".
The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον.
"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:
The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.
The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".
Let's follow the blessed chain linking these people of whom John wrote which is the "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) links with "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) links with "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9).
Each of these are exactly the same people:
- "many as received Him"
- "children of God"
- "believe in His name"
- "born of God"
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to believe in Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to believe in Jesus.
Again, here is the passage:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation of the Word of God inquired "Brethren, what shall we do" in Acts 2:14-37)
Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.
The word "receive" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".
The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man" because man causes not man to be "born of God" nor man causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", nor man causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
The grammatical sense of the word "receive" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) because the Apostle indicates the "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", whom are the ones that God causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
Since you are so very focused on the BAGD throughout your prior post, even in your closing paragraph:
e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;
- that God controls the "received" and the "recognizing his authority" are entirely controlled by God for it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) - THE CONCEPT EMPHASIZED IN YOUR CLOSING PARAGRAPH IS NOT CONTROLLED BY MAN.
- that BAGD extended the "take up, receive" definition of lambano in your heart with "receive someone into one’s house" as evident in your quotation of Scripture that you disbelieve "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30–31) see "one’s house" in BAGD along with thy house (Acts 16:30-31) as a relation, and this Paul wrote that God causes people to believe and that the believe is not of yourselves/man with:
So, Paul dispelled your deception that the "Believe" in Acts 16:30-31 was of man to the glory of man, just is the conclusion of your heart's treasure. Truly God gets the glory for us believers believing in Jesus.
by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE HOLY SOVEREIGN TRUE GOD, LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Kermos
Paul knew when he told the Philippian Jailor to believe on Christ, that if he did, it was a sure indication that it had been graciously given to him, for he later writes to that church Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul knew when he told the Philippian Jailor to believe on Christ, that if he did, it was a sure indication that it had been graciously given to him, for he later writes to that church Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
You are simply repeating already dealth with nonsense
BAGD refutes your meaning of receive
λαμβάνω
e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b; 13:20a,
Did you fail to see J 1:12 there
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 464.
That was BAGD
it does not support you
Grammar and the active voice refutes you
| 2 3745 [e] 12 hosoi 12 ὅσοι 12 As many as 12 RelPro-NMP |
The active voice notes it is something they did not something which happened to them
WHAT IS ITS VOICE?
These inflectional endings also tell you whether you are doing the action or if it is being done to you. Take the sentence, “I will make a house,” (ποιήσω οἶκον). You will understand it better if I diagram it:
Active
Notice the direction the action is going, from the left to the right; from “I” to “house.” The verb tells you what I will do to the house. So I place an arrow over the verb pointing in the right direction of the action:
Edward W. Goodrick, Do It Yourself Hebrew and Greek: A Guide to Biblical Language Tools (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1980), x.
| You have ignorantly twisted the grammar, willfully ignored the lexical definition by BDAG and twisted the passage to suit your theology you give verses with a passive meaning but receive in John 1:12 is active not passive This has been pointed out to you multiple times but you go on willfully presenting passive examples you are twisting the grammar while ignoring the fact that even your Calvinist peers do not agree with your claims As I noted |
The context refutes you
Calvinist commentators refute you
Received him not. Did not acknowledge him to be the Messiah. They rejected him and put him to death, agreeably to the prophecy, Is. 53:3, 4.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 178.
Barnes is a calvinist he refutes you
Received him not (αὐτον οὐ παρελαβον [auton ou parelabon]). Second aorist active indicative of παραλαμβανω [paralambanō], old verb to take to one’s side, common verb to welcome, the very verb used by Jesus in 14:3 of the welcome to his Father’s house. Cf. κατελαβεν [katelaben] in verse 5. Israel slew the Heir (Heb. 1:2) when he came, like the wicked husbandmen (Luke 20:14).
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 1:11.
A.t. Robertson is another Calvinist - he expounds on theactive voice paralambano of verse 11 (same root word Lambano)
context refutes you
John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
receive refers to believing on him - his authority as the lexicon BAGD noted
Sorry you are simply repeating your sorry old claims which were shown insufficient
You have ignored Calvinist commentators, Calvinist Greek Scholars, industry standard lexicons, parallel texts
read your theology into passages where it did not exist.
Twisted passages by appeal to a non parallel text while mishandling an active voice verb as though it was a passive
Receive Christ is something they did not something that happened to them
the active voice refutes your claim
All your claims have been noted and refuted previously which you just t ignore
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-61559
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brightfame52
Well-known member
The regenerated person does actively receive Christ, believe on Him, thats what it means. The natural man cannot do that. Also when a person does something actively, its a work, so if you insist a natural man is saved by God because of an action he performed, guess what ? You are promoting salvation for the natural man by his works. How you like that ?
Sorry there is no life apart from faith in Christ
John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Scripture refutes your theology
Determining someone's course of action through power is the definition of force
brightfame52
Well-known member
If you condition salvation on your activity, something you did, its apostacy, works mans religion. The regenerate, already saved, believes in Christ, receives Him.
