Now who is being dishonest? Your claiming I don't believe in free will as I do and most Calvinists do as well. You should repent of your false accusations against your brother in Christ.
Lets try it this way Mr. Honesty. DEFINE FREE WILL
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Lets try it this way Mr. Honesty. DEFINE FREE WILL
Who has ever said differently?
Post it and let's check it out. Remember your the expert.Agreed on all MT.
And who can know better than someone who has lived through the experience!
It would be a monstrous god that would create persons for His own good pleasure....use them....and then send them to hell forever.
Where is the Love, the mercy, the justice? There is non in calvinist theology.
@Presby02 wanted me to post Chapter 9 from one of the confessions, which I did.
He THINKS it means that he has free will.
Two points:
1. This just points out how brainwashed he is that he doesn't even understand that according to the reformed....he has no free will.
2. I guess he forgot to read Chapter 3 which explains how God ORDAINED/DECREED EVERYTHING that happens.
No free will in Calvinism.
WCF Chapter 9 section 1. Awaiting your expert analysis.
A gum infection? LOL That's terrible least of of your problems apparently.
@GodsGrace @Jim @MTMattie @TomL @ProDeo @synergy @civic @Kermos
I'll read everything that was posted since I posted last and will answer every post to me, starting with @Jim, and @MTMattie which I read just before I left, but had no time to respond back with my busy schedule yesterday.
@Jim
The main reason I said forget about Reformed Theology, and Arminianism, is the different beliefs within each group among themselves! I can see this with those who hold to what you believe~ You would add water baptism as essential to regeneration whereas some among you would not, likewise I'm not your typical Calvinist, not even close, since some of them teach infant baptism, and just about all of them teach "gospel means' being used in regeneration~ so truly they embrace sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it, much like men like you believe. The average Calvinist, Reformed teacher/preacher must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few ~which many do. I get persecuted more of Reformed forums more than I do on this type of forum, trust me, I know, even though both reject what I have to say, which is to be expected if you have a measure of truth anymore. The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. and your family of followers never do.
Jim the spirit in man is much more than just damaged, it is in bondage to sin and its master, the devil himself. A greater power than the devil must open up the prison doors to free such a person.
So, Jim you said: "The rebirth, being born again, being regenerated is the act of God bringing the spirit to life again." My question to you is this: I agree the ne wbirht is an act of God, solely an acts of God's power, whereas man (the sinner) is passive, do you agree with this? If not, then you do not believe what you say you beleive, it is just talk to deceive others of what you say you believe. You said: "being regenerated is the act of God bringing the spirit to life again'. If no life then there can be no activity toward God. You are not consistent in your teaching, and neither are those that believe as you believe. Jim, inconsistency is the hallmark of error being present!
You and others have too much confidence in your flesh~we rejoice in Jesus Christ who by himself secured eternal life for us IN HIS FLESH, the only one who in his flesh please God.
I'll read everything that was posted since I posted last and will answer every post to me, starting with @Jim, and @MTMattie which I read just before I left, but had no time to respond back with my busy schedule yesterday.
@Jim
Jim, it does not come down to what you or I think, or any other person, but truly what does God say about man in the flesh, apart from being spiritual, or being born again, all the same.
Jim, again forget about Calvinism, Reformed theology, and let us address scriptures just as I do with you and others, without calling you and others "hyper Arminians" pushing Arminian Theology. What saith the word of God, which is God's testimony of the truth.
The main reason I said forget about Reformed Theology, and Arminianism, is the different beliefs within each group among themselves! I can see this with those who hold to what you believe~ You would add water baptism as essential to regeneration whereas some among you would not, likewise I'm not your typical Calvinist, not even close, since some of them teach infant baptism, and just about all of them teach "gospel means' being used in regeneration~ so truly they embrace sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it, much like men like you believe. The average Calvinist, Reformed teacher/preacher must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few ~which many do. I get persecuted more of Reformed forums more than I do on this type of forum, trust me, I know, even though both reject what I have to say, which is to be expected if you have a measure of truth anymore. The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. and your family of followers never do.
Jim, when God's word speak of those in the flesh, of the flesh in particular, it is speaking of those not yet born again, and if not born again, than all that makes up that person, or, who that person is..... is corrupt if that is all he is, again, by not being born of God ~ according to God's testimony, than there is no good thing that can come from such a person that is pleasing to God, impossible Jim, regardless what you think and other think, that is the word of God, that's no tmy opinion. We have provided scriptures many times above form such places as Romans 8, etc.
Jim the carnal mind, or "man's spirit", is at enmity against God, but you say it is not, you are bearing false witness to the word of God, or to God's testimony of what is the truth! Jim, do you know the difference bewtween an enemy, and one that is at enmity against a person? I know you do, you just refuse to admit it To be at enmity is to be at constant war, unable to reconcile, and neither desire to do so. Much worse than Israel and Hezbollah. Only God' mercy and power can cause this to happen, nothing shor tof thsi will work.
Jim the spirit in man is much more than just damaged, it is in bondage to sin and its master, the devil himself. A greater power than the devil must open up the prison doors to free such a person.
Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,”Jim, no one has ever said he flesh is change, and as matter of truth, God does nothing to the old man, but leaves him alone, he creates a new man within his elect after the image of Jesus Christ, and this man cannot sin, but desires only to do the will of God, but, because we still have the old man with us, called this body of sin and death, it keep us from doing the will of God as we desire to do, yet, we know that we shall soon be forever delivered from this body of sin and death through the victory that Christ secured for us. Romans seven goes into detail concerning this truth.
So, Jim you said: "The rebirth, being born again, being regenerated is the act of God bringing the spirit to life again." My question to you is this: I agree the ne wbirht is an act of God, solely an acts of God's power, whereas man (the sinner) is passive, do you agree with this? If not, then you do not believe what you say you beleive, it is just talk to deceive others of what you say you believe. You said: "being regenerated is the act of God bringing the spirit to life again'. If no life then there can be no activity toward God. You are not consistent in your teaching, and neither are those that believe as you believe. Jim, inconsistency is the hallmark of error being present!
Jim, when Paul said no good thing is in his flesh, he meant spiritually speaking that a man can do to please God, please be honest and try to be reasonable~our teaching on man in his natural state of having only the flesh, without God's Spirit, is according to God's testimony, where he moved Paul to write:
Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”Philippians 3:3
“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”You and others have too much confidence in your flesh~we rejoice in Jesus Christ who by himself secured eternal life for us IN HIS FLESH, the only one who in his flesh please God.
Johann
Well-known member
Calvin writes in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.1.4):
“Faith is the principal work of the Holy Spirit.”
and in Institutes (3.2.34):
“Faith is a special gift of God, and by no means a work of our own.”
Thus, the quote you provided is best understood not as a denial of the divine origin of faith, but as an exegetical decision on John 6:29 specifically, where Calvin interprets the construction as emphasizing human obligation rather than divine causation.
J.
Selah
Active member
just saying
Johann
Well-known member
Brother--Huh? The unregenerated, so they cannot believe, pleases God???? Which verse ever says that? More wackiness from those who run away from verses like Rom 8:13
(Rom 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Stop running away from acknowledging who "you" is in Rom 8:13.
To claim that unregenerate persons—dead in sin, hostile to God, devoid of the Spirit, and enslaved to the flesh—can please God by mustering up salvific faith is not only unscriptural but cuts directly against the theological grain of Romans 8:1–13. Your use of Rom 8:13 as a rhetorical corrective is well-placed, especially since it highlights the role of the Holy Spirit within the believer who is now empowered to mortify sin—something impossible for the natural man.
J.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Never to return? Again, Scripture contradicts your belief and false theology:
In Acts 2 three thousand Jews were chosen and called out by God and were born-again and saved. Christ added to His Jewish Church every day "such as should be saved" meaning everyday hundreds and thousands of Jews became born-again and saved. God is faithful. That's all that matters. And He still has many promises to fulfill individually and to the Hebrew people as a nation. While hundreds and thousands were in Jerusalem on the day Jesus was crucified there were still hundreds of thousands - even millions - of Jews and mixed heritage Jews living in Gentile lands oblivious of what took place in Jerusalem. They didn't call out "Barabbas, Barabbas!" that day before Passover on A.D. 32 when the lamb of God was crucified. God will gather His people whom He's scattered among the Gentiles and will save them all:
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:22–28.
That doesn't look to me that God has cast away His people. Saul says He doesn't.
Before conversion to Christ every Jew was guilty under the Law of transgressing the Law. If you break one Law you are guilty of breaking it all, right? Thus, the existence of a Law "thou shalt not" is proof the Jew is a sinner.
God didn't give His Law to the unrighteous man; He gave His Law to a people He was to save. The Law is spiritual. The letter killeth. That's why it killed. Because those under the Law were flesh. But the spirit gives life. And once a Jew became spiritual Olive tree Israel by being born-again the Law could not kill him anymore. But think about this: If death is the penalty for sin, then man will die at the appointed time. We believe Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sin, right. Every sin was paid for, right? Yet, we still die. So, what sin is it that we must all individually and personally pay for by our death? We might have been imputed Christ's righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature, but we still die. What sin was unatoned that will still kill us and we go down to our graves? Do you know?
Israel wasn't "for good, never to return." That's a lie you believe. The New Covenant God makes with the House of Israel and the House of Judah through the sacrifice of Christ for their sin is the means of God forgiving Israel of twelve tribes. As Jeremiah says:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:33.
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Romans 11:1-2.
Saul was sent to the Gentiles because that's where God scattered His people: among Gentiles. Remember Assyria and Babylon? Nearly 1.5 million Jews were carried away INTO Exile by God. The hundreds and the thousands of Jews that were born-again in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost are only a drop in the bucket compared to the millions and millions that will be saved when all is said and done. And God will call His people out of the world and gather them ALL to Himself:
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 5:8–10.
The Jews called mixed heritage Hebrews of the northern kingdom tribes "Samaritan" and not "Jew" with the same attitude the Jews called mixed heritage Hebrews of the southern kingdom tribes "Gentile" and not "Jew." And the Jews called non-Hebrew Gentiles "unclean, uncircumcised, heathen" with the same attitude.
Jesus Christ initiated the New Covenant on the night He was betrayed in His own body and blood. The Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL instituted that New Covenant and began applying it to Jews beginning at Jerusalem and out into the world where God scattered His people on the day of the Feast of Harvest when to begin building the Church He promised to build three thousand Jews were born-again and saved. And Christ added JEWS to His Church daily such as should be saved.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Acts 21:20.
4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Acts 4:4.
What happened in the first forty years from ascension to the destruction of the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70, and the souls that came to Christ is nothing to be compared right before Jesus returns a second time. The word "revival" is insufficient to describe what's to come. Maybe you will be alive to see it.
Maybe.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Yes, there is one on here who vehemently denies free will and is a self claimed high Calvenist, to distance from John.
There are a couple of others who do not claim to be Calvinists, just belief in predestination and they too have argued against free will...
Pay attention to those who call us free-willers.
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Selah
Active member
Right. Jesus isn’t telling the children of the devil to repent, because He knows who they are.
@synergy
See #7549Huh? The unregenerated, so they cannot believe, pleases God???? Which verse ever says that? More wackiness from those who run away from verses like Rom 8:13
(Rom 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Stop running away from acknowledging who "you" is in Rom 8:13.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
One does not need to trace their bloodline. The Lord knows them that are His.
God established the Abraham Covenant with Abraham who was to be a father of "many." And the covenant was a covenant that Abraham wanted to pass to his children which is why he asked God for an heir. And when Isaac didn't see fulfillment of the Promises then Jacob became heir to those Promises, and so on, and on. But the clues are in Scripture. God saves through covenant (Mosaic Covenant.)
God prophesied Abraham's seed will go into captivity and after 400 years God delivered Abraham's seed from bondage and gave them His Laws and made another covenant that was built upon the Abraham Covenant. IT IS a bloodline covenant because Abraham asked for a bloodline heirship and God gave him one. But it's all about God's Plan and timing, not Abraham's and not yours.
Although I am not an adherent to Armstrongism and British Israelitism, Jews were scattered into all places in the world.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:6.
In time Abraham's seed did go into England, and Scotland, and Ireland, etc. They went into Romania, Germany, Russia, even to America. God scattered His people EVERYWHERE.
And every presumed "Gentile" that becomes born-again, if they understand God made covenant with Abraham and HIS SEED, and HIS SEED was scattered by God into ALL the world, and God is going to call OUT His people from OUT OF the world, every kindred, language, and nation, then that person is truly born-again of the Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL, then it's not difficult to understand that somewhere in their ancestry there would have to be at least one Hebrew parent.
You're stretching it. You are short-sighted. God made Promises to Abram and his seed ----> Mosaic Covenant with Abram's seed ----> New Covenant with Abram's seed (House of Israel and House of Judah), and that's where we are right now.
The New Covenant established in the body and blood of Christ is the culmination of the Promises God gave to Abraham. And God is saving based upon those covenants. These covenants are found in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets, and all the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation is only these Jewish Christians trying to understand and make sense of the New Covenant era Israel found herself in. That's all it is which is why there are a great many Old Testament passages used to describe the New Covenant Israel found herself in.
That's all it is.
You might be able to TRY to show that but it will end where Revelation ends. From Revelation 22 onward you can show nothing else. For two thousand years God has carried His people, the children of Israel, even to today. Your genetic identifying ends with Revelation 22 in and around A.D. 95-100.
That's all.
Peter is quoting words spoken to Israel in the Old Testament.
Why do you think there are hundreds of quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament?
That's because Israel is showing their connection in the New Covenant era with the history of the Old Covenant era. It's all a history of Abram and his seed. From Genesis to Revelation, it's all about Israel's history and God's covenant with this people.
Remember, God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles.
None.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Spot on.
@MTMattie
First, what i reject, is the teaching that man is not in bondage to sin and the Devil. The scriptures are clear that no man has power (or even a desire ) to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, and in this sense his will is without question in bondage to sin/lust and to Satan.
Secondly, I stay away for the most part of name calling, a labels (free-willers), they serve very little purpose~there may be a time when we need to point one's error, by name calling pointing out the corruption of such teachings that is a blatant false teaching, but very seldom do I use name calling and labels to identify my opponents, providing scriptures and following Christ's method of addressing such people does the job and much more effective.
The Pharisees did not believe that they were ever in bondage! Amazing! They just refuse to believe the scriptures: they were in Egypt; they were by the Assyrians; and by Babylonians; and were at that very moment by Rome! How blind can one be!
I assumed you are speaking about me.
First, what i reject, is the teaching that man is not in bondage to sin and the Devil. The scriptures are clear that no man has power (or even a desire ) to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, and in this sense his will is without question in bondage to sin/lust and to Satan.
Secondly, I stay away for the most part of name calling, a labels (free-willers), they serve very little purpose~there may be a time when we need to point one's error, by name calling pointing out the corruption of such teachings that is a blatant false teaching, but very seldom do I use name calling and labels to identify my opponents, providing scriptures and following Christ's method of addressing such people does the job and much more effective.
John 8:33
“They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?”The Pharisees did not believe that they were ever in bondage! Amazing! They just refuse to believe the scriptures: they were in Egypt; they were by the Assyrians; and by Babylonians; and were at that very moment by Rome! How blind can one be!
Jeremiah you must wait until later, I'm short on time. But, trust me.............
Johann
Well-known member
Human Responsibility and the Command to Believe
Scripture consistently presents faith and repentance as commands, not automatic effects of regeneration. A command presupposes the moral ability (not the native spiritual power) to respond, meaning that people are held responsible for rejecting or receiving the truth.
Acts 17:30 – "God now commandeth all men every where to repent." → Repentance is commanded universally, implying a volitional response.
Mark 1:15 – "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." → Jesus appeals directly to the will of His hearers.
John 12:36 – "While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light." → This imperative underscores that people are expected to respond freely while light is available.
Deuteronomy 30:19 – "I have set before you life and death... therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." → God's appeal to the will is a consistent biblical motif: choice is a condition of life.
2. Biblical Language of “Coming” as Volitional Response
John 5:40 – "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." → Jesus indicts them not for inability, but unwillingness; this centers the matter in their will, not their nature.
John 7:17 – "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine..." → The one who wills to do God's will is in the position to discern truth, again highlighting volitional openness.
Revelation 22:17 – "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." → “Whosoever will” places the decision squarely within the domain of the individual's volition.
3. People Are Condemned for Refusing to Believe
If belief were merely the passive result of regeneration, then people could not justly be condemned for unbelief. Yet Scripture explicitly declares that people are held accountable because they refuse to believe:
John 3:18 – "He that believeth not is condemned already... because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 – "...they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... that they all might be damned who believed not the truth..."
Luke 13:34 – "How often would I have gathered thy children... and ye would not!" → Here again, the issue is not inability but refusal.
4. Repentance and Faith as the Human Side of Conversion
Repentance and faith are described as the conditions under which God grants salvation. While the Spirit convicts (John 16:8), illumines (John 1:9), and draws (John 12:32), the actual turning must be done by the individual.
Acts 3:19 – "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..."
Hebrews 3:15 – "Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts..."
Isaiah 55:6–7 – "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found... let the wicked forsake his way..."
5. Free Will and the Power to Choose
While human nature is fallen (Rom 3:10–18), Scripture shows that God enables through truth, and that truth requires a volitional response. This is not Pelagianism (which denies the necessity of grace), but the historic position of many early Jewish and Christian thinkers, including:
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho (§43): “We have learned from the prophets... that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it were not so... no responsibility would rest upon men.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies (4.37.1): “This expression [of Christ], ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty...”
Cross-Reference
+Deut 30:19, +Rev 22:17, +John 5:40, +Luke 13:34, +Acts 17:30
+John 1:9, +John 16:8, +2 Thess 2:10–12, +Heb 3:15, +Mark 1:15
+Isa 55:6–7, +Rom 10:9–10, +Acts 2:38, +Acts 3:19
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
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