Fatalism is impersonal inevitability. This is not the same thing as God's sovereign determination of all that happens (working all things according to the counsel of his own will; and working all things together for good to those who love him, those who are the called, according to his purpose).
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
DavidTree
Well-known member
Just as a reminder - i am not a clavinicalist and never read about Calvinism
Is there any possiblity that some things are predetermined and therefore = inescapable???
civic
Well-known member
Some things yes, all things no
DavidTree
Well-known member
What comes to mind on "some things"???
civic
Well-known member
God does not cause evil, sin . Let no man when he is tempted say it was from the Lord. God does not temp anyone to sin.
DavidTree
Well-known member
MTMattie
Active member
Reminder. 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except something common to mankind; and God is faithful, so He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
civic
Well-known member
Yes like the cross, His birth, Pentecost and many other things still yet to be fulfilled in prophecy
God does not cause sin directly (including not tempting anyone, as you pointed out); however, he does use secondary causes - a fact that the Bible makes clear.
2 Sam. 24:1 (KJV) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 Sam. 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
This, on its own, would look as if God had directly caused David to sin; but, by looking at the parallel passage, we can see that God used Satan as a secondary cause to accomplish this purpose.
1 Chron. 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
DavidTree
Well-known member
@civic
Isaiah 45:5-7
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’
civic
Well-known member
Disasters/ calamities are not evil.
Calamities are not moral evil, but they are sometimes directly caused by moral evil; and, since it is God who brings calamities, he also uses the evil (as a secondary cause) that is sometimes the direct cause of them.
You confuse God's patience with God's grace. Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation adulterates the Holy Scripture as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your post to which God causes me to respond now:
| The Book of civic | The Book of Jeremiah | |
| Also My Grace has sent to you all My servants the prophets, sending them My Grace again and My Grace again, saying: ‘Turn now every man from his evil way and amend your deeds by allowing My Grace in your own free-will, and do not go after other gods to worship them. Then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your forefathers; but you have not allowed My Grace or inclined your ear or listened to Me. (civic 35:15) | Also I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, sending them again and again, saying: ‘Turn now every man from his evil way and amend your deeds, and do not go after other gods to worship them. Then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your forefathers; but you have not inclined your ear or listened to Me. (Jeremiah 35:15) |
According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
This post is an integral continuation with:
- post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
- post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,105 - Your perverted a warning into a binding judgment in Hebrews 10:29 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,132 - Your heart adulterates Hebrews 12:25's word "warns" into the word "condemns" As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,168 - You Added Free-will into Genesis 6:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,190 - Your Heart Revised History In 2 Chronicles 36:15-16 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,249 - Proverbs 29:1 Fails As A Proof Text For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,327 - your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) is not in Isaiah 30:15 - so Your Fallible Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable is proven anti-truth.
- post #5,376 - your Failure Atonement of Christ is akin to your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) as your adulteration of Isaiah 65:2 Shows.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!
MTMattie
Active member
@Kermos
Some Pharisees and teachers of the law complained to Jesus about the disciples not washing their hands. Jesus called them hypocrites and then quoted Isaiah. He pointed out that the people only honored Him with their lips and not with their heart. They only come up with human rules to worship God.
Going to church and singing a worship song is an easy thing to do. Claiming to believe in Jesus is also an easy thing for a person to do. Doing these things can appear on the outside to be honoring God. It can appear the person is a good Christian follower of Jesus.
The reality of it is that doing these things are only outward things and may not always be a part of the heart. For some people, they go to church only because they are forced to (such as children), it is the thing to do (because parents brought them up to do it), or to look good to others. Some have been brought up in a church and so they do not want to leave the church and look bad, but they really don’t want to be there either.
People will come up with all kinds of rules about being a Christian, just to look good. However their heart is not really in it. They mouth the words of worship songs, rather than sing them from the heart. They are quick to point out faults in others, but are slow to compassion and mercy. This is missing who Jesus really is and what He was about.
Living like this is honoring God only with the lips and words. The heart is not a part of it. God is seeking to have your heart, not just your words.
As you say and do things each day, you need to ensure that it measures up to what Jesus said and did. Jesus said and did everything from the heart. His heart was to please His Father–God, not just to look good on this earth.
Everything said and done must honor God from the heart, not just the outward actions. Don’t just go through the routine of looking like a believer in Jesus. Be a believer and follower of Jesus from the heart. Keep your heart close to Jesus.
Free will is a conjured concept of the traditions of man??????????? Wrong. Rote worship is a conjered concept, as I have above.
As suggested
The important question: Is all this necessary to experience God’s presence?
Worship leaders, who desire to pastor good-hearted, talented volunteers would do well to consider: is what I am doing real or is it rote?
ROTE: “A routine, fixed, habitual, or mechanical course of procedure; proceeding repetitiously, without meaning.”
Then consider from the bible....
Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. They had freewill.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. They had freewill.
John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Comment on freewill.
Joshua 24:15 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” They had freewill.
Mark 8: 34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. They had freewill.
Rev 3: 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. They had freewill.
Romans 13: 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. They had freewill.
Romans 10: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. They had freewill.
Gal. 5 : 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.v17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. They had freewill.
Gen 2 :16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Isaiah 55: 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. They had freewill.
John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. They had freewill.
Deut. 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They too, had free will.
Ezekiel 18: 30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! Can only be freewill.
Some Pharisees and teachers of the law complained to Jesus about the disciples not washing their hands. Jesus called them hypocrites and then quoted Isaiah. He pointed out that the people only honored Him with their lips and not with their heart. They only come up with human rules to worship God.
Going to church and singing a worship song is an easy thing to do. Claiming to believe in Jesus is also an easy thing for a person to do. Doing these things can appear on the outside to be honoring God. It can appear the person is a good Christian follower of Jesus.
The reality of it is that doing these things are only outward things and may not always be a part of the heart. For some people, they go to church only because they are forced to (such as children), it is the thing to do (because parents brought them up to do it), or to look good to others. Some have been brought up in a church and so they do not want to leave the church and look bad, but they really don’t want to be there either.
People will come up with all kinds of rules about being a Christian, just to look good. However their heart is not really in it. They mouth the words of worship songs, rather than sing them from the heart. They are quick to point out faults in others, but are slow to compassion and mercy. This is missing who Jesus really is and what He was about.
Living like this is honoring God only with the lips and words. The heart is not a part of it. God is seeking to have your heart, not just your words.
As you say and do things each day, you need to ensure that it measures up to what Jesus said and did. Jesus said and did everything from the heart. His heart was to please His Father–God, not just to look good on this earth.
Everything said and done must honor God from the heart, not just the outward actions. Don’t just go through the routine of looking like a believer in Jesus. Be a believer and follower of Jesus from the heart. Keep your heart close to Jesus.
Free will is a conjured concept of the traditions of man??????????? Wrong. Rote worship is a conjered concept, as I have above.
As suggested
The important question: Is all this necessary to experience God’s presence?
Worship leaders, who desire to pastor good-hearted, talented volunteers would do well to consider: is what I am doing real or is it rote?
ROTE: “A routine, fixed, habitual, or mechanical course of procedure; proceeding repetitiously, without meaning.”
Then consider from the bible....
Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. They had freewill.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. They had freewill.
John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Comment on freewill.
Joshua 24:15 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” They had freewill.
Mark 8: 34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. They had freewill.
Rev 3: 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. They had freewill.
Romans 13: 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. They had freewill.
Romans 10: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. They had freewill.
Gal. 5 : 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.v17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. They had freewill.
Gen 2 :16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
(My comment) Why would Gid have told Adam not to eat from the tree, if He already knew that is what Adam would do? ) He had freewill.
Isaiah 55: 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. They had freewill.
John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. They had freewill.
Deut. 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They too, had free will.
Ezekiel 18: 30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! Can only be freewill.
You fail to understand Apostolic testimony. The uncircumcised in heart are the same as people not born of God, so God did not give God's Unearned Love (Grace) to those people.
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation adulterates the Holy Scripture as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your post to which God causes me to respond now:
| The Acts of civic | The Acts of the Holy Spirit | |
| You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy God's Grace; as your fathers successfully fought off the Grace of God by your father's own initiative, so do you. (civic 7:51) | You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51) |
According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
This post is an integral continuation with:
- post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
- post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,105 - Your perverted a warning into a binding judgment in Hebrews 10:29 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,132 - Your heart adulterates Hebrews 12:25's word "warns" into the word "condemns" As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,168 - You Added Free-will into Genesis 6:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,190 - Your Heart Revised History In 2 Chronicles 36:15-16 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,249 - Proverbs 29:1 Fails As A Proof Text For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,327 - your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) is not in Isaiah 30:15 - so Your Fallible Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable is proven anti-truth.
- post #5,376 - your Failure Atonement of Christ is akin to your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) as your adulteration of Isaiah 65:2 Shows.
- post #5,394 - You confuse God's patience with God's grace per Jeremiah 35:15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!
Greetings Watchman and @DavidTree,
In 2 Samuel 24:1, the word "moved" is the verb explaining God's action in "he moved David against them", but Satan merely "provoked" David as per "Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1 Chronicles 21:1).
The word "moved" indicates a forced relocation of David by God; on the other hand, the word "provoked" indicates temptation of David by Satan.
Since God is good all the time (Mark 10:18), then this "moved" certainly means that God's action of "moved" is good, even though man sinned.
I would like to hear your response respecting this.
Shalom,
Kermos
Hi again DavidTree and @Watchman,
In Isaiah 45:7, the translation you used has the word "calamity", but the Hebrew source word for "calamity" is the same Hebrew source word for "evil" in the translation of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17).
The Hebrew source word is רָע (Strong's Hebrew: 7451. רָע (ra') -- Evil, bad, wicked, harmful, unpleasant); therefore, the English word in Isaiah 45:7 must be the word "evil".
Since Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), then God remains good even when God creates evil.
The translational inconsistency between Isaiah 45:7 and Genesis 2:17 is evil.
The Word of God is:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I, YHWH, do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7)
Were you aware of this?
Peace,
Kermos
DavidTree
Well-known member
FULLY aware but intentionally held back until responses were gathered.
God moved David against Israel, by using Satan's temptation of David to number them.
God moving David's heart (indirectly) was indeed good, because it was to bring about righteous judgment upon Israel for their sin.
