An Article on free will

You deny the Apostle Peter's testimony by your way of exalting your non-Apostolic Free-willian Smelley's interpretation above Apostolic testimony as shown below.

A crucial point is that not a single Biblical citation in you post states that Christ exclusively referred to the Apostles the Christ's usage of “you” as recorded in John chapter 15!

You propounded "Still a reference to Christ's [exclusive] choice of his apostles" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were a part of the audience in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter testified the Apostolic Right:
TomL WrongApostolic Right
21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have not accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 do not concern yourselves whether from the beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(TomL 1:21-23)
21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

You responded “Yes” to the question “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?” (proof post #576) when John 15:14-19 was quoted in full at the time.

Let’s take a look at Lord Jesus Christ’s usage of “you” with which the above question and answer pertains:
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you

You express confused thoughts about the population of Christ’s “you” in the passage.

Your response of “Yes” establishes your personal claim of being part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I have called you friends” (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart’s “It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles” eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I chose you” (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart’s treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your “Yes” and “It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles” expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) “Yes No” concept about the audience represented in Christ’s “you” recorded in John 15:14-19.

Your adulteration of Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of TomLThe Word of God
you apostles exclusively did not choose Me to be apostles, but I exclusively chose you to be apostles
(TomL 15:16)
you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)
I chose not you out of the world
(TomL 15:19, excludes salvation)
I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes salvation)
And so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again and again and again.

Nothing, absolutely nothing you wrote eliminates the Truth (John 14:6) that Lord Jesus Christ includes every disciple in all time with His blessed sayings “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (the Word of God, John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (the Word of God, John 15:19, includes salvation).

Your heart's exclusion of all Christians in all time from Lord Jesus Christ's blessed sayings is your false free-willian philosophy that leads to you excluding yourself from the Kingdom of God.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-willian Philosophy is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE TRUE FAITH!!!
Sorry you are not dealing with the facts

You completely ignored the scriptural and commentary evidence

Still a reference to Christ's choice of his apostles

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.

Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.


Further your objection has nothing at all to do with determining what is being stated in the text

The text itself makes no comment as to whether Christ chose me a friend

and that is not the subject of the text and my comments have nothing at all to the meaning of the text

Do you have anything other than your opinion to offer

Something in the text that actually which actually indicates God unconditionally picks men to save them

If not you are simply begging the question ands ignoring data










 
God is unconditionally everybody's editor according to you, correct? You have God arguing against Himself.

As a self-described free-willian, you are self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10), not the image of Christ's will (Romans 8:29), and God caused me to quote the Apostle Peter specifically mentioning you self-willed people in the below. You return with your deception instead of discussing Holy Scripture as proclaimed in Truth (John 14:6) in the following.

The problem is you don't answer yes or no. But I am assuming you don't believe in secondary causes.

But if this is so, then everything is actuated unilaterally directly by God, including thoughts and actions.

Then we are really not communicating with each other but actuated by God. Like string puppets that are not really communication with each other or scriptures, including you.

You wrote "string puppets" in contrast to "vessels" which God's vessel of mercy Apostle Paul wrote:

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
(Romans 9:18-23)
So, faithful, glorious, and graceful Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into Romans 9:19-23.

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault since everything is actuated unilaterally directly by God? For who among string puppets resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in Romans 9:20 showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings - look at your post, Kampioen.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Declare doesn't necessarily mean unilaterally predetermine. It could mean He just recited what He foreknew. So you haven’t proven unilateral predetermination.

Almighty God is so powerful that YHWH forms the mountains, and the mountains would not exist without YHWH's direct intervention; nonetheless, YHWH forms the mountains.

Almighty God is so powerful that YHWH declares to man what is his thought, and this thought would not exist without YHWH's direct intervention; nonetheless, YHWH declares to man what is his thought.

Almighty God is so powerful that YHWH makes the morning darkness, and the morning darkness would not exist without YHWH's direct intervention; nonetheless, YHWH makes the morning darkness.

Since God declares to man his thought:

behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!
(Amos 4:13)
then man is receiver of thoughts determined beforehand by God. After all, God has to have His thought before declaring to man what is his thought.

This doesn't prove unilateral predetermination. God just hides some things from some.

Behold, you add a new third group of people to the Word of God. The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!
the word of Kampioen The Word of God
I praise You, man, creator of your faith, that some of you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God and I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(the traditions of men 11:25)
I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
so you adulterate the Word of God.

That is effectual grace. But that doesn't disprove prevenient grace before salvation.

Behold, you add a new ability for people to the Word of God. The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!
the word of Kampioen The Word of God
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[
(The Book of Free-willians 3:3)
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3
so you adulterate the Word of God.

The word " prevenient " is absent from the Word of God - just like the phrase " secondary cause " is absent from the Word of God; therefore, your heart's treasure is absent from the Word of God.

This doesn't prove unilateral predetermination for people to be good or evil. It just states what God does to good or evil people.

You declare " It just states what God does to good or evil people. ", yet the doings of you self-willed is diligently declared with " those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties " in the Apostle Peter'd powerful writing of:

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"
(2 Peter 2:9-10).
so you free-willians are self-willed persons who do not tremble when you revile His Majesty King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (see John 3:3 above).

Philippians 2:12 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This doesn't prove unilateral predetermination. The new birth just determines the doing of it. But the extent of it libertarianly depends on us. That is the way it is worded.

The Apostle Paul worded Philippians 2:12-13 such that God is fully in control of we Christians will and we Christians work with " it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure " (Philippians 2:13). Nothing therein coincides with your " the extent of it libertarianly depends on us " results in the word of Kampioen " it is you who is at work in yourself enabling God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure " (Kampioen 2:13).

This does not prove unilateral predetermination. God could just as well be gathering already evil people together to get the job of crucifixion done ie non-meticulous providence. It doesn't say He monergized them to be evil.

The Apostles prayed about " Your Hand " to God, but your " God could just as well be gathering already evil people together to get the job of crucifixion done ie non-meticulous providence ".

Your " non-meticulous providence " is a phrase for " inarticulate hand "

Not only did the Apostles pray about " Your Purpose " to God, but the Apostles amplified the application of God's actively direct involvement by the Apostles praying about " Your Hand " to God.

You believe in a weak god's inarticulate hand .

I believe in the Lord God Almighty's Strong Hand.

Kampioen, pay special attention to that which came out of David's mouth, God's servant, in contrast to your heart's thoughts in your writing quoted above .

Hear Apostolic testimony about God's Hand intimately controlling people's lives, even Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the peoples of Israel:

"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,

And the peoples devise futile things?

'The kings of the earth took their stand,

And the rulers were gathered together

Against the Lord and against His Christ.'

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.
"
(Acts 4:24-30, the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)
This does not prove unilateral predetermination. It could just as well mean the work that God wants us to do.

You wrote " It could just as well mean the work that God wants us to do " about the Apostle Paul writing of people who that do not believe in Lord Jesus Christ the Truth - you used the word " us " to include yourself in the " them " and " they " inside of:

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"
(2 Thessalonians 2:11).
You are the one denying sovereignty. You have God with no other existing free will or option than to unilaterally meticulously predetermine us just the way He did. He didn't know to do anything else. That is not freedom or sovereignty for God.

No Word of God declares man was imparted free-will.

My Lord Jesus Christ blesses me with freedom from the punishment for my sin, and this is Jesus Christ's work for every one of us Christians of whom Jesus Christ declares “ This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent ” ( John 6:29 ).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, ALL GLORY TO EL SHADDAI!!!
 
As a self-described free-willian, you are self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10), not the image of Christ's will (Romans 8:29), and God caused me to quote the Apostle Peter specifically mentioning you self-willed people in the below. You return with your deception instead of discussing Holy Scripture as proclaimed in Truth (John 14:6) in the following.



You wrote "string puppets" in contrast to "vessels" which God's vessel of mercy Apostle Paul wrote:
18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
So, faithful, glorious, and graceful Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into Romans 9:19-23.

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault since everything is actuated unilaterally directly by God? For who among string puppets resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)​

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in Romans 9:20 showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings - look at your post, Kampioen.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).



Almighty God is so powerful that YHWH forms the mountains, and the mountains would not exist without YHWH's direct intervention; nonetheless, YHWH forms the mountains.

Almighty God is so powerful that YHWH declares to man what is his thought, and this thought would not exist without YHWH's direct intervention; nonetheless, YHWH declares to man what is his thought.

Almighty God is so powerful that YHWH makes the morning darkness, and the morning darkness would not exist without YHWH's direct intervention; nonetheless, YHWH makes the morning darkness.

Since God declares to man his thought:
behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!
(Amos 4:13)​
then man is receiver of thoughts determined beforehand by God. After all, God has to have His thought before declaring to man what is his thought.



Behold, you add a new third group of people to the Word of God. The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!
the word of KampioenThe Word of God

I praise You, man, creator of your faith, that some of you have revealed these things to yourselves for you are the wise and intelligent ones who cause yourselves to repent and be born of God and I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(the traditions of men 11:25)
I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
so you adulterate the Word of God.



Behold, you add a new ability for people to the Word of God. The left column contains your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9), and the right column contains the Righteous Word of God!
the word of KampioenThe Word of God
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[
(The Book of Free-willians 3:3)
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3
so you adulterate the Word of God.

The word " prevenient " is absent from the Word of God - just like the phrase " secondary cause " is absent from the Word of God; therefore, your heart's treasure is absent from the Word of God.



You declare " It just states what God does to good or evil people. ", yet the doings of you self-willed is diligently declared with " those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties " in the Apostle Peter'd powerful writing of:

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"
(2 Peter 2:9-10).​
so you free-willians are self-willed persons who do not tremble when you revile His Majesty King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (see John 3:3 above).



The Apostle Paul worded Philippians 2:12-13 such that God is fully in control of we Christians will and we Christians work with " it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure " (Philippians 2:13). Nothing therein coincides with your " the extent of it libertarianly depends on us " results in the word of Kampioen " it is you who is at work in yourself enabling God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure " (Kampioen 2:13).



The Apostles prayed about " Your Hand " to God, but your " God could just as well be gathering already evil people together to get the job of crucifixion done ie non-meticulous providence ".

Your " non-meticulous providence " is a phrase for " inarticulate hand "

Not only did the Apostles pray about " Your Purpose " to God, but the Apostles amplified the application of God's actively direct involvement by the Apostles praying about " Your Hand " to God.

You believe in a weak god's inarticulate hand .

I believe in the Lord God Almighty's Strong Hand.

Kampioen, pay special attention to that which came out of David's mouth, God's servant, in contrast to your heart's thoughts in your writing quoted above .

Hear Apostolic testimony about God's Hand intimately controlling people's lives, even Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the peoples of Israel:

"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,

And the peoples devise futile things?

'The kings of the earth took their stand,

And the rulers were gathered together

Against the Lord and against His Christ.'

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.
"
(Acts 4:24-30, the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)​



You wrote " It could just as well mean the work that God wants us to do " about the Apostle Paul writing of people who that do not believe in Lord Jesus Christ the Truth - you used the word " us " to include yourself in the " them " and " they " inside of:

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"
(2 Thessalonians 2:11).​



No Word of God declares man was imparted free-will.

My Lord Jesus Christ blesses me with freedom from the punishment for my sin, and this is Jesus Christ's work for every one of us Christians of whom Jesus Christ declares “ This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent ” ( John 6:29 ).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, ALL GLORY TO EL SHADDAI!!!
These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.
 
The atonement doesn't fail, because it effectually universally brings all people to a decision. It does not give faith. But it is also particularly effectually brings those who have faith to salvation. Even the Amyraldian Calvinists believe that. There is no failure in the atonement.

You just conjure up a straw idea that says Arminian atonement fails.

But the failure is your view, because your view has God that can't save all because He has no other existing choice or ability than to meticulously predetermine according to the one script in His head, making God enslaved.
Ditto
 
The result is the same. Which is worse; an impersonal, fluke of chance, or a personal being that deliberately chooses to determine every act, thought, motivation and event, including the death and destruction of most of his creation? In either case human choice and will are irrelevant, or non-existent.



Doug


God's involvement is impersonal.

Strawman. Gods choosing does not involve chance. FAILED

Nonsense. They are not Irrelevant because they are a necessary part of the plan.

The cross was determined. Christ to go to the cross did He not? Or was His choice Irrelevant or non existent?
 
Where?

Point it out

Sorry faith being an instrumental cause does not help your position for you denied God saves because of faith.


It most certainly does. As I said you don't know or understand what a instrumental cause is. A instrumental cause is not tge primary cause.
 
These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

To the free-willians civic and @TibiasDad (due to your like of civic's post, your belief is so error ridden that you fail to respond to yesterday's post #4,616 to you, yet you like civic's post today),

You responded to a post containing the Word of God "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25), and you call this beautiful and loving Word of God your false witness and your source of discord among brothers and other evil of your heart!

Let’s compare the passage you quote, above, to your prior writing, below.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism/ determinism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:5-8), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN GOD!!!
 
To the free-willians civic and @TibiasDad (due to your like of civic's post, your belief is so error ridden that you fail to respond to yesterday's post #4,616 to you, yet you like civic's post today),

You responded to a post containing the Word of God "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25), and you call this beautiful and loving Word of God your false witness and your source of discord among brothers and other evil of your heart!

Let’s compare the passage you quote, above, to your prior writing, below.



You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:5-8), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN GOD!!!
Gookgobbly
 
God's involvement is impersonal.

God is clearly personal. He is only impersonal by your theology.

Strawman. Gods choosing does not involve chance. FAILED.

You have God with no other choice than what *per chance* is the stone non-thought-out script of His nature. That is impersonal.

Nonsense. They are not Irrelevant because they are a necessary part of the plan.

But the plan wasn't planned per your view. It just happens to exist that way for no thought out reason as part of His static nature.

The cross determined. Christ to go to the cross did He not? Or was His choice Irrelevant or non existent?

Per your view the choice was relevant to being correct to the script but not that God had anything to do with it. And our own thought of relevancy or not is a thought actuated into our head.

That is what the doctrine of unilateral predetemination does.
 
God's involvement is impersonal.
God cannot be relational and be impersonal; God cannot be love and be impersonal. To be impartial is not to be impersonal.
Strawman. Gods choosing does not involve chance. FAILED
God chooses those who believe. He does not choose them to believe. For an omniscient being, there is no chance.
Nonsense. They are not Irrelevant because they are a necessary part of the plan.
They are not truly man’s; they are God’s choice, not man’s. (Assuming your theological beliefs.)


Doug
 
God is clearly personal. He is only impersonal by your theology.



You have God with no other choice than what *per chance* is the stone non-thought-out script of His nature. That is impersonal.



But the plan wasn't planned per your view. It just happens to exist that way for no thought out reason as part of His static nature.



Per your view the choice was relevant to being correct to the script but not that God had anything to do with it. And our own thought of relevancy or not is a thought actuated into our head.

That is what the doctrine of unilateral predetemination does.
Ditto
 
Sorry you are not dealing with the facts

You completely ignored the scriptural and commentary evidence

Still a reference to Christ's choice of his apostles

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.



But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.



12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.



True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.



16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς. Not ye chose Me, but I chose you. Ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ are emphatic. Ἐκλέγειν refers to their election to be Apostles (6:70, 13:18; Acts 1:2); therefore the aorist as referring to a definite act in the past should be preserved. So also ἔθηκα, I appointed you, i. e. assigned you to a definite post, as in 2 Tim. 1:11; Heb. 1:2. This is better than ‘I ordained,’ as A. V. here and 1 Tim. 2:7, ‘ordain’ having become a technical term in ecclesiastical language. Comp. Acts 13:47, 20:28; 1 Cor. 12:28. The repetition of ὑμεῖς throughout the verse emphasizes the personal responsibility of the Apostles.11 A. Plummer, The Gospel according to S. John (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1896), 286.



In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.

Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.


Further your objection has nothing at all to do with determining what is being stated in the text

The text itself makes no comment as to whether Christ chose me a friend

and that is not the subject of the text and my comments have nothing at all to the meaning of the text

Do you have anything other than your opinion to offer

Something in the text that actually which actually indicates God unconditionally picks men to save them

If not you are simply begging the question ands ignoring data

You invoked your Smelley defense against the Word of God, again, and you wrote "You completely ignored the scriptural and commentary evidence" which reeks with deception as shown in the post to which you replied and the below.

You deny the Apostle Peter's testimony by your way of exalting your non-Apostolic Free-willian Smelley's interpretation above Apostolic testimony as shown below.

A crucial point is that not a single Biblical citation in you post states that Christ exclusively referred to the Apostles the Christ's usage of “you” as recorded in John chapter 15!

You propounded "Still a reference to Christ's [exclusive] choice of his apostles" respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were a part of the audience in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter testified the Apostolic Right:
TomL Wrong Apostolic Right
21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have not accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 do not concern yourselves whether from the beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(TomL 1:21-23)
21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

You responded “Yes” to the question “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?” (proof post #576) when John 15:14-19 was quoted in full at the time.

Let’s take a look at Lord Jesus Christ’s usage of “you” with which the above question and answer pertains:

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(John 15:15-16 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))

You express confused thoughts about the population of Christ’s “you” in the passage.

Your response of “Yes” establishes your personal claim of being part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I have called you friends” (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart’s "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles" eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I chose you” (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart’s treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your “Yes” and "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles" expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) “Yes No” concept about the audience represented in Christ’s “you” recorded in John 15:14-19.

Your "In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles" adulteration of Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
The word of TomL The Word of God
you apostles exclusively did not choose Me to be apostles, but I exclusively chose you to be apostles and I did not choose you out of the world
(TomL 15:16, excludes salvation and excludes friendship)
you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16, includes salvation and includes friendship)
I chose not you out of the world
(TomL 15:19, excludes salvation)
I chose you out of the world
(John 15:19, includes salvation)
And so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again and again and again.

Nothing, absolutely nothing you wrote eliminates the Truth (John 14:6) that Lord Jesus Christ includes every believer in all time with His blessed sayings “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (the Word of God, John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (the Word of God, John 15:19, includes salvation).

Your heart's exclusion of all Christians in all time from Lord Jesus Christ's blessed sayings is your false free-willian philosophy that leads to you excluding yourself from the Kingdom of God.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-willian Philosophy is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE TRUE FAITH!!!
 
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